How has the life of an airline pilot really changed??
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How has the life of an airline pilot really changed??
I'm a reasonably recent entrant to the profession - only around 18 months but I'm curious how the hours flown nowadays compares with that flown in say the 1970's, 80's and nineties.
I work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and my roster is typically:
1600-1700 duty hours in 12 months
650 flying hours in 12 months
Usually 5 on 2 off
Usually around 4 days a week with 4 sectors with a duty length of 8-9 hrs per day
The other day per week is typically a standby and I get to keep about 70% of those.
I'm curious how this compares with the guys flying comparable routes in previous decades e.g. BA/BEA/Midland etc.
Interested in numbers to see how the job has really changed especially in terms of time at home.
Desk-pilot
I work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and my roster is typically:
1600-1700 duty hours in 12 months
650 flying hours in 12 months
Usually 5 on 2 off
Usually around 4 days a week with 4 sectors with a duty length of 8-9 hrs per day
The other day per week is typically a standby and I get to keep about 70% of those.
I'm curious how this compares with the guys flying comparable routes in previous decades e.g. BA/BEA/Midland etc.
Interested in numbers to see how the job has really changed especially in terms of time at home.
Desk-pilot
BA....18 years ago on shorthaul......350 yrs a year
BA....12 years ago on 744.............800 yrs a year
BA.....now.............on 777.............850 yrs a year
I do work harder with less time at home. Times change and we realise that we have to be competitive. I'm not sure with whom though. It seems that our major competitors don't work as hard as we do, and still manage to make a lot of money.
BA....12 years ago on 744.............800 yrs a year
BA.....now.............on 777.............850 yrs a year
I do work harder with less time at home. Times change and we realise that we have to be competitive. I'm not sure with whom though. It seems that our major competitors don't work as hard as we do, and still manage to make a lot of money.
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Third Bag
Same drift towards 1,000 hours in the USA. Biggest change is amount of pilots who carry a third piece of luggage...suitcase and flight bag as always plus (past 10 years) a laptop/attache type bag, domestic or international...the third bag generally represents the second job/business/employment that the crewmember is pursuing to ensure financial security and the possibility of a real retirement...the goal for many is to minimize or leave the flying job altogether (where it relates to income)...choosing to perhaps fly airline trips for fun in later years, treating it more like an avocation, if the outside business is successful.
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Source: My dad. 35 years at BA from 1969-2004 - 18000 hours, so an average of 514 hours a year. Equallyish split between VC-10, 737, 75/767 and 747.
Me in 2008 at a UK short haul low cost operator. 700 hours/year.
Me in 2008 at a UK short haul low cost operator. 700 hours/year.
For the sake of a balanced debate there are a few plus points. Actual hours flown have reduced again recently, at least for some, since the new regulations were introduced.
The market for pilots has also expanded in such a way that a lot more people have the opportunity to fly for an airline and indeed BA than was the case back in the good old days. A lot of the jobs get you home every evening e.g. Ryanair and Easyjet.
Whilst we would all like to have enjoyed the kind of career CkocksAwayUK's dad had, the fact is that timing is everything in life. Those that joined at the right time had a great career.
Friends of mine at BA who started around ten years later ended up waiting over 20 years to get a short haul command and were not uniformly happy. They were the lucky ones, as there was almost no hiring after them for a very long time. Stories abound about being on nearly permanent standby and getting called morning after morning for the early Paris.
Everything is not perfect these days. But time to upgrade has improved. A huge number of jobs have been created and pay, at least for captains, is not bad. A lot of us are doing something we love.
Average pay and conditions have declined over the period discussed. But overall a lot more people are making a good living as a pilot (if not quite as good as the lucky few). It could also be argued that there is not a lot of leeway for things to get a lot worse. However job security remains a big issue.
The market for pilots has also expanded in such a way that a lot more people have the opportunity to fly for an airline and indeed BA than was the case back in the good old days. A lot of the jobs get you home every evening e.g. Ryanair and Easyjet.
Whilst we would all like to have enjoyed the kind of career CkocksAwayUK's dad had, the fact is that timing is everything in life. Those that joined at the right time had a great career.
Friends of mine at BA who started around ten years later ended up waiting over 20 years to get a short haul command and were not uniformly happy. They were the lucky ones, as there was almost no hiring after them for a very long time. Stories abound about being on nearly permanent standby and getting called morning after morning for the early Paris.
Everything is not perfect these days. But time to upgrade has improved. A huge number of jobs have been created and pay, at least for captains, is not bad. A lot of us are doing something we love.
Average pay and conditions have declined over the period discussed. But overall a lot more people are making a good living as a pilot (if not quite as good as the lucky few). It could also be argued that there is not a lot of leeway for things to get a lot worse. However job security remains a big issue.
Last edited by lederhosen; 31st Oct 2008 at 08:55.
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The overall T&Cs have been fundamentally eroded.
Whilst there are more flightdeck positions, flying is now seen as akin to getting the bus by certain members of the general public and the respect awarded to pilots has also deteriorated to an extent.
It would be interesting to hear the views of pilots in the early 1980s compared to now and I would expect a thoroughly negative response - but I would also expect this in many industries, including my own.
Whilst there are more flightdeck positions, flying is now seen as akin to getting the bus by certain members of the general public and the respect awarded to pilots has also deteriorated to an extent.
It would be interesting to hear the views of pilots in the early 1980s compared to now and I would expect a thoroughly negative response - but I would also expect this in many industries, including my own.
Last edited by FANS; 1st Nov 2008 at 08:15.
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I agree. Now it's 900 hours every year, lates to earlies, constant changes to rosters, positioning at the company's behest, poor crew meals (if any), no final salary pension, no PHI, poor moral, no team spirit, no authority, no respect.
If I knew then what I know now...
If I knew then what I know now...
Man Flex
900 hours? Not for me it isn't
Lates to Earlies? Love it, gives me a (sort of) day off in the middle
Constant change to rosters? It is an airline we work for, not a supermarket where I never got any "roster changes"
Positioning at companies behest? Again, if the Airline needs you at another base, whats the problem?
Poor crew meals: Never had a nice meal on an aircraft EVER
No final salary pension: No Final salary pension in any industry mate!
No PHI: Buy it yourself if you want it
Poor moral? Not on my flights mate! I like to muck in with the rest of them and make it a nice day at work
No Team spirit? see above
No respect? I still get called sir or captain...not that I need it to feed my ego!
If I knew then what I know now......I would not change a thing! Still glad I worked all those hours at Tesco on overtime to fund my ATPL get to where I am today
By the way Man flex, I work at the same company as you!!!!
900 hours? Not for me it isn't
Lates to Earlies? Love it, gives me a (sort of) day off in the middle
Constant change to rosters? It is an airline we work for, not a supermarket where I never got any "roster changes"
Positioning at companies behest? Again, if the Airline needs you at another base, whats the problem?
Poor crew meals: Never had a nice meal on an aircraft EVER
No final salary pension: No Final salary pension in any industry mate!
No PHI: Buy it yourself if you want it
Poor moral? Not on my flights mate! I like to muck in with the rest of them and make it a nice day at work
No Team spirit? see above
No respect? I still get called sir or captain...not that I need it to feed my ego!
If I knew then what I know now......I would not change a thing! Still glad I worked all those hours at Tesco on overtime to fund my ATPL get to where I am today
By the way Man flex, I work at the same company as you!!!!
Paolo...I don't want to sounds patronising....How long have you been doing the job? How do you think you'll feel in 10 or 20 years doing the same without any pension or let up as the accountants and managers turn the screw? I hope that you'll be just as content living on your non FSS and the state pension.
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No final salary pension: No Final salary pension in any industry mate!
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There is an interesting difference between the guys who's first job was a Pilot and the guys who had to slog their way through the office to pay for their training.
The latter being the happier!
The latter being the happier!
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If you want to get conditions and salary as great as it used to be many years ago in aviation, if you want to visit many cities in wonderful 5 star hotels, have much more than minimum rest, and fly less than 350 hours a year and have lots of free time at home, go and fly cargo 
Pax is just
( I have experience in both pax and cargo operations).
But some people here will never believe me, unless they follow my advice
Pax is just
( I have experience in both pax and cargo operations).But some people here will never believe me, unless they follow my advice
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I think one major change in Europe is that night stopping crews is now viewed as an inconvenience rather than a necessity like it used to be. Airlines now like to get crews back to their home base at the end of the day and that has resulted in airlines operating with more bases. Even if terms and conditions have eroded, the fact that more people can live where they want to or close to where they want to is perhaps one if not the only redeeming factor.
In the US for example it is rare to have a crew member live anywhere near they are based. Commuting and night stopping still plays a integral part in the daily lives of our friends in the US.
I fly European short haul and whilst I do spend a fair amount of time away from home and away down route, I have had the chance to visit some places that I have throughly enjoyed seeing and those are places I would never have visited otherwise. I probably won't be able to go on like this for much longer since it does take its toll but I am glad I have done it!
In the US for example it is rare to have a crew member live anywhere near they are based. Commuting and night stopping still plays a integral part in the daily lives of our friends in the US.
I fly European short haul and whilst I do spend a fair amount of time away from home and away down route, I have had the chance to visit some places that I have throughly enjoyed seeing and those are places I would never have visited otherwise. I probably won't be able to go on like this for much longer since it does take its toll but I am glad I have done it!
Hunterboy:
I have been flying for 10 years now....I understand what you're are saying it is just that I did not become an airline pilot because of a pension scheme!
RAFAT:
OK, I did not know that Rail companies still had FSS. For how much longer though?
HmmmgoodOJ:
Well said...It is what I think most of the time when people moan!!! Do people not do things for the love of it sometimes? I am still in love with flying (operating aircraft as I put it!) even more since I started in 1999! If I dreamt of being a dustbinman then that is what I would have set out to do. I set out to do this and achieving my ambition. I am sure I am not alone.
TAP:
'Nuff said!!!!!! Could not agree with you more!
If MEGA money etc is what people want, then work in the city! I would love to earn what a college chum of mine took home...83k basic is comparable to my salary but bonus of 33k!! Blinking hell, he is an accountant with a big company in the city but does he work for it...in for 8am does not leave until 645pm eats sandwiches at his desk...But does he get job satisfaction...NO!
He said if he won a billion quid, he would quit work!
I said I won a billion quid, I would carry on part time because I enjoy it!
There is the difference
I have been flying for 10 years now....I understand what you're are saying it is just that I did not become an airline pilot because of a pension scheme!
RAFAT:
OK, I did not know that Rail companies still had FSS. For how much longer though?
HmmmgoodOJ:
Well said...It is what I think most of the time when people moan!!! Do people not do things for the love of it sometimes? I am still in love with flying (operating aircraft as I put it!) even more since I started in 1999! If I dreamt of being a dustbinman then that is what I would have set out to do. I set out to do this and achieving my ambition. I am sure I am not alone.
TAP:
'Nuff said!!!!!! Could not agree with you more!
If MEGA money etc is what people want, then work in the city! I would love to earn what a college chum of mine took home...83k basic is comparable to my salary but bonus of 33k!! Blinking hell, he is an accountant with a big company in the city but does he work for it...in for 8am does not leave until 645pm eats sandwiches at his desk...But does he get job satisfaction...NO!
He said if he won a billion quid, he would quit work!
I said I won a billion quid, I would carry on part time because I enjoy it!
There is the difference
After 42 years and 24,000 hours in the game, I can honestly say that most times I still enjoy it once I am actually at work.
But how has it changed? Well, way back when, pilots were treated with plenty respect - first class deadhead travel, rosters published a month in advance etc. With pilot supply exceeding demand, it was hard to get a job, but once you got it, 500 stick hours a year was about the norm, with 10 days at home every month.
Now, even though there is a supposed shortage of pilots, all the 'respect' seems to have gone. Rosters are always subject to change on short notice, then they are run to maximum duty periods, minimum legal days at home. Deadhead always seems to be on the cheapest flight of the day, in the worst seat at the worst time. And of course the poxy, poxy security crap, which is enough to spoil anyone's day - if only because we all know it is nothing more than window dressing - it won't stop the real bad guys and isn't geared up to weed out suicidal pilots.
But, airline flying still beats driving a cab or working in a bank, so if you can deal with the above-described crap, go for it. Just don't admit to management that you actually like it, 'cos the buggers will take advantage somehow.
But how has it changed? Well, way back when, pilots were treated with plenty respect - first class deadhead travel, rosters published a month in advance etc. With pilot supply exceeding demand, it was hard to get a job, but once you got it, 500 stick hours a year was about the norm, with 10 days at home every month.
Now, even though there is a supposed shortage of pilots, all the 'respect' seems to have gone. Rosters are always subject to change on short notice, then they are run to maximum duty periods, minimum legal days at home. Deadhead always seems to be on the cheapest flight of the day, in the worst seat at the worst time. And of course the poxy, poxy security crap, which is enough to spoil anyone's day - if only because we all know it is nothing more than window dressing - it won't stop the real bad guys and isn't geared up to weed out suicidal pilots.
But, airline flying still beats driving a cab or working in a bank, so if you can deal with the above-described crap, go for it. Just don't admit to management that you actually like it, 'cos the buggers will take advantage somehow.
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What are the changes?
"I have been flying for 10 years now...." after I had been flying for ten years I had progressed through a whole bunch of light aircraft, including, eventually, Highland and Islands schedules, charter and Air Ambulance, (single crew, all weather, night and day), as well as air taxi around Europe before getting onto a light turbo prop with a major carrier, flying in support of the oil industry in the Middle East and, lucky me, got the biggest break of all after eleven years flying I got onto a jet in the RHS with no prospect of command for at least five and probably eight more years. I have never, ever, regretted a single minute of it.
I was never a 'specialist' as many of todays younger pilots have become, with little real flying experience but plenty of system management time.
As aircraft and their systems advance it remains to be seen just how relevant a broad based aviation background with single crew command experience in all weathers really is. Why would leaving Glasgow in the middle of a winter night to fly to Stornaway, in a BN2, (no wx radar), on your own, to pick up a very pregnant mum plus doctor and nurse and then fly them to Inverness and position back to GLA improve a young pilot? I like to think that kind of flying made me better able to handle situations like partial loss of tail plane control whilst descending into Shiraz in a BAC1-11, engine shut down mid Pacific and a few other attention getting scenarios because I had already been out there on a dark and stormy night and had to work my way through it.
Has the time come when aircraft are so automated that my kind of experience is now irrelevant?
"I have been flying for 10 years now...." after I had been flying for ten years I had progressed through a whole bunch of light aircraft, including, eventually, Highland and Islands schedules, charter and Air Ambulance, (single crew, all weather, night and day), as well as air taxi around Europe before getting onto a light turbo prop with a major carrier, flying in support of the oil industry in the Middle East and, lucky me, got the biggest break of all after eleven years flying I got onto a jet in the RHS with no prospect of command for at least five and probably eight more years. I have never, ever, regretted a single minute of it.
I was never a 'specialist' as many of todays younger pilots have become, with little real flying experience but plenty of system management time.
As aircraft and their systems advance it remains to be seen just how relevant a broad based aviation background with single crew command experience in all weathers really is. Why would leaving Glasgow in the middle of a winter night to fly to Stornaway, in a BN2, (no wx radar), on your own, to pick up a very pregnant mum plus doctor and nurse and then fly them to Inverness and position back to GLA improve a young pilot? I like to think that kind of flying made me better able to handle situations like partial loss of tail plane control whilst descending into Shiraz in a BAC1-11, engine shut down mid Pacific and a few other attention getting scenarios because I had already been out there on a dark and stormy night and had to work my way through it.
Has the time come when aircraft are so automated that my kind of experience is now irrelevant?
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Are we talking ourselves out of a job and is it the 'pilot way' to let the other person come down to your own salary instead of self improving?
In a way we are our own worst enemy in the way we react to certain scenario's. We're meant to be rational thinkers but most of the time I see a group of whining children throwing toys out of the pram.
In a way we are our own worst enemy in the way we react to certain scenario's. We're meant to be rational thinkers but most of the time I see a group of whining children throwing toys out of the pram.
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F/O @European legacy carrier(making profit)
@shorthaul fleet: the hardest working group within the company
max 750hrs/year(as per collective working agreement) actual~500-600hrs/year
being treated with respect (and treating the people around me accordingly)
min 12 days off per month (as per collective working agreement), actual 3-4 days home per week (winter)
Deadheading in business/first, good hotels, food, rest periods etc
good salary and benefits, excellent pension sceme (retirement at 56) and social security
strong union.
Did not hear any colleague complain when comparing current working environment with that of 20 yrs ago.
but for how long? especially when taking into account the current status of the world economy..
kind regards
@shorthaul fleet: the hardest working group within the company
max 750hrs/year(as per collective working agreement) actual~500-600hrs/year
being treated with respect (and treating the people around me accordingly)
min 12 days off per month (as per collective working agreement), actual 3-4 days home per week (winter)
Deadheading in business/first, good hotels, food, rest periods etc
good salary and benefits, excellent pension sceme (retirement at 56) and social security
strong union.
Did not hear any colleague complain when comparing current working environment with that of 20 yrs ago.
but for how long? especially when taking into account the current status of the world economy..
kind regards
Last edited by oboema; 2nd Nov 2008 at 16:08.