Air Asia Salary
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Is it safe?
Is it safe to send a young low hour graduate to the other side of the world to fly in a country where the other crew members speak a different language, have a different cultural / training backgrounds? (and I'm not talking about racism before someone jumps down my throat) CRM??
I can picture it now: highly experienced captain of asian airline sat next to a plucky 20 yr old FO from england (who thinks hes gods gift to aviation because of his oxford background and rich parents) with no actual experience flying jets.... And theyre on approach through a tropical storm to some tin pot airfield...
And not to forget it is a 'low cost' operation.
I can picture it now: highly experienced captain of asian airline sat next to a plucky 20 yr old FO from england (who thinks hes gods gift to aviation because of his oxford background and rich parents) with no actual experience flying jets.... And theyre on approach through a tropical storm to some tin pot airfield...
And not to forget it is a 'low cost' operation.
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No, it's totally crazy.
A First Officer, whose qualifications might or might not be suitable - he was never assessed, he just bought the job. The PIC is going to be a senior commander, who will not respect the new guy sitting next to him for obvious reasons.
Two different cultural backgrounds and languages may sometimes lead to misunderstandings, especially in a stressful situation.
Of course, aviation is safe, and the Airbus will fly it's way. Of course the two guys will usually reach their destination.
But God help them if anything goes wrong. Again, usually things end up with a "close mishap" and get covered up.
But it's far from anywhere being safe.
A First Officer, whose qualifications might or might not be suitable - he was never assessed, he just bought the job. The PIC is going to be a senior commander, who will not respect the new guy sitting next to him for obvious reasons.
Two different cultural backgrounds and languages may sometimes lead to misunderstandings, especially in a stressful situation.
Of course, aviation is safe, and the Airbus will fly it's way. Of course the two guys will usually reach their destination.
But God help them if anything goes wrong. Again, usually things end up with a "close mishap" and get covered up.
But it's far from anywhere being safe.
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Aerospace,
I'm not a plucky 20 year old, but your scenario is otherwise exactly my current situation (not Air Asia though). SE Asia is generally a high threat environment, inspite of this our operations are safe - the often quoted Asian CRM 'issue' is in my experience completely unjustified.
Is it safe to send a young low hour graduate to the other side of the world to fly in a country where the other crew members speak a different language...CRM??
I can picture it now: highly experienced captain of asian airline sat next to a plucky 20 yr old FO from england with no actual experience flying jets.... And theyre on approach through a tropical storm to some tin pot airfield...
And not to forget it is a 'low cost' operation.
I can picture it now: highly experienced captain of asian airline sat next to a plucky 20 yr old FO from england with no actual experience flying jets.... And theyre on approach through a tropical storm to some tin pot airfield...
And not to forget it is a 'low cost' operation.
Last edited by Tony Hirst; 2nd Nov 2008 at 19:06.
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As far as I know this scheme is only being offered to people who have already been through OAA and selection is based on MCC/JOT performance.
The line training cost is disgusting, but roughly equal to sector pay which is paid out from day 1. I suppose one could think of it as no sector pay but no line training cost. Also the Malaysian CAA allows 1000h/year so getting all the flying done in 12 months could be a reality. The initial contract is for 1000h or 15 months, whichever comes first.
When one considers living costs one's net profit (or loss as the case would be) after a year with Air Asia wouldn't be far from a year at Ryanair - RYR does pay more after 500h, but you have to live in a hotel bouncing all over Europe for line training and that's very expensive.
I'm afraid the industry these days is all about ripping off low-timers. We can live in denial working on the ground until the good times return, or jump in build hours and hope for the best. I won't judge which is right or wrong.
S.
The line training cost is disgusting, but roughly equal to sector pay which is paid out from day 1. I suppose one could think of it as no sector pay but no line training cost. Also the Malaysian CAA allows 1000h/year so getting all the flying done in 12 months could be a reality. The initial contract is for 1000h or 15 months, whichever comes first.
When one considers living costs one's net profit (or loss as the case would be) after a year with Air Asia wouldn't be far from a year at Ryanair - RYR does pay more after 500h, but you have to live in a hotel bouncing all over Europe for line training and that's very expensive.
I'm afraid the industry these days is all about ripping off low-timers. We can live in denial working on the ground until the good times return, or jump in build hours and hope for the best. I won't judge which is right or wrong.
S.
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I would just add that everyone in Malaysia who has the money/education to be an airline pilot will speak very good English. Actually everyone with any decent form of education will speak an acceptable level of English.
S.
S.
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Its all very well having your captain speak english, but what about your low cost support staff, engineers, crew etc? I guess CRM doesnt include them...
Im not just talking about a language barrier, what about cultural? how would a 20 yr old white female FO be perceived as in asia?
Do the cadets have to learn malaysian to give their PAs for pax??
Im not just talking about a language barrier, what about cultural? how would a 20 yr old white female FO be perceived as in asia?
Do the cadets have to learn malaysian to give their PAs for pax??
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No need to learn Bahasa, English is generally the spoken language when flying with Air Asia. They will occasionally revert back to Bahasa, but if you ask them nicely to speak English for the sake of good CRM they will do so.
Europeans are made very welcome there - esp by the easy on the eye female cabin crew.
If you make the effort to learn some of their language it will be appreciated by the locals.
Worked there a few years ago and really enjoyed my time there.
While there the DCA would not validate under 25's for some reason - might have changed since, but worth checking out as people taking money from you may not tell you until too late for you.
Validation can take up to 2-3 months and they need you to be in the country on a tourist visa while waiting, so you might have to pop up to Phuket and pop back in on a new visa while waiting. The problem is that the DCA don't validate without a work permit, but they might have fast tracked this by now.
This money to fly thing is nothing new, while I was there they used Eagle Jet "pay to fly pilots", but stop as they were not happy with the quality.
Europeans are made very welcome there - esp by the easy on the eye female cabin crew.
If you make the effort to learn some of their language it will be appreciated by the locals.
Worked there a few years ago and really enjoyed my time there.
While there the DCA would not validate under 25's for some reason - might have changed since, but worth checking out as people taking money from you may not tell you until too late for you.
Validation can take up to 2-3 months and they need you to be in the country on a tourist visa while waiting, so you might have to pop up to Phuket and pop back in on a new visa while waiting. The problem is that the DCA don't validate without a work permit, but they might have fast tracked this by now.
This money to fly thing is nothing new, while I was there they used Eagle Jet "pay to fly pilots", but stop as they were not happy with the quality.
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"Europeans are made very welcome there - esp by the easy on the eye female cabin crew."
That's reason enough to fly for Air Asia for a few years. Come back to cold Europe with nice memories later.
That's reason enough to fly for Air Asia for a few years. Come back to cold Europe with nice memories later.
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Just because we have been to OAA doesn't mean we think we are gods gift, I find that rather insulting.
Everyone at OAA I met were all top quality, humble, always willing to help each other out.
We have the same licence, have been through the same training, worked equally hard for it.
N
Everyone at OAA I met were all top quality, humble, always willing to help each other out.We have the same licence, have been through the same training, worked equally hard for it.
N
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This all makes interesting reading and it appears that the Air Asia program has been met with some disgust, by most people. Agreed, it is a sad fact that low hours pilots are now being made to pay to fly, but in the current climate where there is a glut of low hrs pilots airlines can set whatever terms they like, as they know that some people out there will bite and take the bait. There's nothing wrong with going ahead with a scheme such as this, esp when you consider what your other options are, which atm isn't a great deal. I think if you can keep your head above water financially and you haven't got much debt already then the Air Asia program is very appealing, if not then yes it could be tougher.
Picture this scenario: 2 cadets, one takes the air asia program the other decides to hang around in the U.K and wait for BA to start hiring again (possibly 18mths time for low hrs). Air asia pilot returns home after 16 months with 1000 hrs on type and an A320 TR, meanwhile other guy still has no job and has almost forgotten what an aeroplane looks like. Here's to say the Air Asia pilot doesn't actually return to the UK and instead moves to a bigger carrier in the middle east/far east where he's earning 70 grand tax free. Sure, he has more debt than the other guy, but it's not going to take long to pay off. If you can afford to do it then do it, you'l be the one laughing at the end of the day...
and FYI clanger32, tilbury docks is a very nice place
Picture this scenario: 2 cadets, one takes the air asia program the other decides to hang around in the U.K and wait for BA to start hiring again (possibly 18mths time for low hrs). Air asia pilot returns home after 16 months with 1000 hrs on type and an A320 TR, meanwhile other guy still has no job and has almost forgotten what an aeroplane looks like. Here's to say the Air Asia pilot doesn't actually return to the UK and instead moves to a bigger carrier in the middle east/far east where he's earning 70 grand tax free. Sure, he has more debt than the other guy, but it's not going to take long to pay off. If you can afford to do it then do it, you'l be the one laughing at the end of the day...
and FYI clanger32, tilbury docks is a very nice place
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Well, if guys are going to throw out their money, I won't stop them.
Doesn't bother me anyway; I have a job, type rating and hours. I just picture myself in that situation a few years back, during the post-9/11 crisis.
I was given exactly the same offer back then (20k Euros for 1k hours on the B737 for Air Asia), thought about it for a while, then decided against it.
I made the right decision for myself, as it turned out.
Looking back, all I can say is that I would never do it.
Doesn't bother me anyway; I have a job, type rating and hours. I just picture myself in that situation a few years back, during the post-9/11 crisis.
I was given exactly the same offer back then (20k Euros for 1k hours on the B737 for Air Asia), thought about it for a while, then decided against it.
I made the right decision for myself, as it turned out.
Looking back, all I can say is that I would never do it.
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Bluehigh,
Be careful about the use of the word "colleague". I would not at this point regard someone who deosn't have a job as a pilot as a colleague. Paying for a position without the need for asessment or interview does not constitute a job. Don't fool yourself, this Air Asia deal is the bottom of the barrell and a new low within the industry. All other self sponsored type and line training schemes including the likes of Sigmar Aviation and Pegasus Airlines, at the very least have a candidate asessments, sim checks and interviews. You have a long way to go before I'd consider you a colleague.
To the mathematical genuis who in an above post comapred this scheme to Ryanair, I think your calculator needs new batteries. No you do not bounce all around Europe for your line training and a Ryr pilot can expect to earn up to €55-60,000 in their first year. And oh yeah...they had interviews and sim asessments. Hence...real job.
Nighty night.
Be careful about the use of the word "colleague". I would not at this point regard someone who deosn't have a job as a pilot as a colleague. Paying for a position without the need for asessment or interview does not constitute a job. Don't fool yourself, this Air Asia deal is the bottom of the barrell and a new low within the industry. All other self sponsored type and line training schemes including the likes of Sigmar Aviation and Pegasus Airlines, at the very least have a candidate asessments, sim checks and interviews. You have a long way to go before I'd consider you a colleague.
To the mathematical genuis who in an above post comapred this scheme to Ryanair, I think your calculator needs new batteries. No you do not bounce all around Europe for your line training and a Ryr pilot can expect to earn up to €55-60,000 in their first year. And oh yeah...they had interviews and sim asessments. Hence...real job.
Nighty night.
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This "buy your PPC/Type rating thing" was attemped in Canada a few years back by a couple of questionable operators in BC. The deal was the Pilots would buy their PPC's and fly for free in order to get that golden "Multi-PIC" time and would not have to move up north and obtain it honestly. There were several fatal accidents that followed this experiment. You get what you pay for. Cheers
-WC
-WC
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Dont waste your money
Another rip-off scheme by rip-off LCC, dont even think about it boys and girls, having no hours on A320 and 60000 Euros in my pocket now is miles better off than having 1000 A320 hours and be bankrupt to a bank 60000 Euro
Then after having that "1000 hours" can anyone tell me who you gonna work for? You guys read the news or not? do you know how many jobless pilots are there with REAL airline experience and TONS of jet hours and experience on type
I worked in Malaysia for 5.5 years as an instructor earning average 2 to 3K USD a month, i loved the place, i then moved to Dubai to work there as a FO and i am still working there till now, yes i am not flying a jet, but a nice turboprop for a decent salary; and although i would love to fly a jet and be in the right seat of A320; i will NEVER consider for a minute to PAY for an airline job or hours on type, NEVER
Regards to all
Then after having that "1000 hours" can anyone tell me who you gonna work for? You guys read the news or not? do you know how many jobless pilots are there with REAL airline experience and TONS of jet hours and experience on type
I worked in Malaysia for 5.5 years as an instructor earning average 2 to 3K USD a month, i loved the place, i then moved to Dubai to work there as a FO and i am still working there till now, yes i am not flying a jet, but a nice turboprop for a decent salary; and although i would love to fly a jet and be in the right seat of A320; i will NEVER consider for a minute to PAY for an airline job or hours on type, NEVER
Regards to all
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Such a sad state of affairs. This profession really is finished if schemes like this are allowed to continue. Paying a crappy airline money to fly passengers who are also paying this crappy airline to fly is simply wrong.
But hey, it seems there are plenty of people out there with a low enough level of self-worth and a high enough bank balance to actually do this so it will continue. To me, those who take up this 'offer' are just as guilty as the airline involved.
And don't preach to me with the usual 'its my last option' crap. It isn't, hold on to your credability and stay well away from this excuse for a job!
But hey, it seems there are plenty of people out there with a low enough level of self-worth and a high enough bank balance to actually do this so it will continue. To me, those who take up this 'offer' are just as guilty as the airline involved.
And don't preach to me with the usual 'its my last option' crap. It isn't, hold on to your credability and stay well away from this excuse for a job!
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Let's put it another way: You are a well established F/O, minding your own business doing the best job you can, getting a decent pay and generally decent conditions. How would you like it if suddenly you were rostered to fly a lot less and subsequently found out there are a number of new "F/O's" who are doing the same job you were doing last week and PAYING the company to do it?
Think about it. Right now you're thinking, yeah, this guy already has a job, what does he care? I'll worry about it when I'll be in his shoes. Believe me, if this trend keeps up, that day is coming for you. It came for me and it is NOT pretty.
But wait, it gets better. What do you think is going to happen next? Maybe you're getting up there in hours and this shrewd company is going to finally offer you a Commander's upgrade, that coveted fourth stripe, your DREAM dream job. But, alas, there's a catch. You have to PAY for it, maybe a little, maybe a lot. The point is, if you do it, you will be taking the place of another captain minding his own business. And one day, what comes around goes around, and you too will find yourself a captain suddenly rostered to fly a lot less. Care to guess why?
When is the vicious circle going to stop? never, unless it doesn't start in the first place.
Think about it. Right now you're thinking, yeah, this guy already has a job, what does he care? I'll worry about it when I'll be in his shoes. Believe me, if this trend keeps up, that day is coming for you. It came for me and it is NOT pretty.
But wait, it gets better. What do you think is going to happen next? Maybe you're getting up there in hours and this shrewd company is going to finally offer you a Commander's upgrade, that coveted fourth stripe, your DREAM dream job. But, alas, there's a catch. You have to PAY for it, maybe a little, maybe a lot. The point is, if you do it, you will be taking the place of another captain minding his own business. And one day, what comes around goes around, and you too will find yourself a captain suddenly rostered to fly a lot less. Care to guess why?
When is the vicious circle going to stop? never, unless it doesn't start in the first place.