Seniority!!!
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Seniority!!!
Is it possible for an airline operation to survive incase of no clear cut seniority in place? is there any airline which has no seniority for the pilots? in tht case how r upgrades and promotions decided?
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Some Middle Eastern and Asian airlines still do upgrades on 'merit' and schedules are not bid, they are assigned according to preferences. Usually, date of hire seniority means something but it's not everything like with most U.S. ALPA carriers.
Of course, even date of hire is a relative thing when mergers are involved.
Of course, even date of hire is a relative thing when mergers are involved.
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Seniorities
With some airlines in some countries (generally small companies without unions) there is no seniority... or say, there is a seniority in the "captain" group, and another seniority in the "first officer" group. Then it is possible that, if in need of additional captains, company hires direct entry, or selects first officer to become captain by seniority, qualifications or merit.
xxx
With PanAm, we had a pilot seniority list, with the ALPA union.
However professional flight engineers (PFE) had their own list, with FEIA union.
After 1963, newly hired F/Es were generally pilots (a CPL/IR was required) and were on the pilot seniority list. but PFE were non-pilots, with F/E licence.
Some airlines still have separate F/E seniority lists... as long as there will be airplanes requiring F/Es.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
With PanAm, we had a pilot seniority list, with the ALPA union.
However professional flight engineers (PFE) had their own list, with FEIA union.
After 1963, newly hired F/Es were generally pilots (a CPL/IR was required) and were on the pilot seniority list. but PFE were non-pilots, with F/E licence.
Some airlines still have separate F/E seniority lists... as long as there will be airplanes requiring F/Es.
xxx
Happy contrails
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With PanAm, we had a pilot seniority list, with the ALPA union.
However professional flight engineers (PFE) had their own list, with FEIA union.
After 1963, newly hired F/Es were generally pilots (a CPL/IR was required) and were on the pilot seniority list. but PFE were non-pilots, with F/E licence.
However professional flight engineers (PFE) had their own list, with FEIA union.
After 1963, newly hired F/Es were generally pilots (a CPL/IR was required) and were on the pilot seniority list. but PFE were non-pilots, with F/E licence.
Actually, at Pan Am, PFE originally referred to a Pilot/Flight Engineer. See Ed Spellacy's note here:
http://www.galaxycouncil.com/Panamus...red_Minkle.pdf
I agree that at most other places a PFE is a non-pilot flight engineer.
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At our small charter company, senority does not exist, in the usual sense.
Captains are hired as needed, First Officers/Flight Engineers likewise, and if a First Officer shows merit, upgrade is certainly possible.
Captains are hired as needed, First Officers/Flight Engineers likewise, and if a First Officer shows merit, upgrade is certainly possible.
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Until now when, regardless how many years hard work you've put in there is no recognised pecking order for those who will be invited to leave if it comes to it over the next months and years of economic decline. At the moment it appears to depend on which base you happen to be in and whether you have demonstrated any sycophantic tendencies.
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After 1963, newly hired F/Es were generally pilots (a CPL/IR was required) and were on the pilot seniority list.
).
It has.
London Times: 17 Oct 2008
Rolls Royce loses landmark age discrimination law suit:
'Britain’s biggest union today won what it hailed as a landmark ruling in one of the first cases on age discrimination to be considered by the courts.
A judge in the High Court in London ruled in favour of Unite in a legal dispute with Rolls-Royce over whether long service should be taken into account when selecting workers for redundancy.
The union hailed the ruling as setting a precedent for protecting older workers from redundancy.
Rolls-Royce argued that taking long service into account amounted to unlawful indirect age discrimination against younger employees. The company claimed that part of a long-standing redundancy selection agreement was unlawful in the light of 2006 regulations that outlaw certain types of age or service-related discrimination.
Derek Simpson, Unite joint general secretary, said after the ruling by Sir Thomas Morison: “When an economic downturn bites, older workers often find it harder to find alternative employment when they are made redundant.
“This landmark ruling will give many older workers some extra protection during these difficult times.”
The case arose out of the use of a points-based redundancy selection scheme.
Employees are scored against various criteria, including achievement, self-motivation, expertise and versatility. A point is awarded to each worker for every year of service.
Sir Thomas said Rolls-Royce had contended that the length of service criterion in collective agreements relating to the company’s Derby and Hucknall sites was “unlawful age discrimination which cannot be justified”. The union argued that it was lawful.
Finding for the union, Sir Thomas said: “The criterion of length of service respects the loyalty and experience of the older workforce and protects the older employees from being put onto the labour market at a time when they are particularly likely to find alternative employment hard to find.”
The judge gave Rolls-Royce permission to appeal his ruling saying it was “clearly an important point for both parties”.
David Reade, QC, a barrister at Littleton Chambers, said: "The battleground of age discrimination is justification and this judgment appears to provide significant support for those justifying policies which favour longer serving, and therefore probably older, workers
An interesting precedent and the first time that LIFO has been tested in court (to my knowledge).
London Times: 17 Oct 2008
Rolls Royce loses landmark age discrimination law suit:
'Britain’s biggest union today won what it hailed as a landmark ruling in one of the first cases on age discrimination to be considered by the courts.
A judge in the High Court in London ruled in favour of Unite in a legal dispute with Rolls-Royce over whether long service should be taken into account when selecting workers for redundancy.
The union hailed the ruling as setting a precedent for protecting older workers from redundancy.
Rolls-Royce argued that taking long service into account amounted to unlawful indirect age discrimination against younger employees. The company claimed that part of a long-standing redundancy selection agreement was unlawful in the light of 2006 regulations that outlaw certain types of age or service-related discrimination.
Derek Simpson, Unite joint general secretary, said after the ruling by Sir Thomas Morison: “When an economic downturn bites, older workers often find it harder to find alternative employment when they are made redundant.
“This landmark ruling will give many older workers some extra protection during these difficult times.”
The case arose out of the use of a points-based redundancy selection scheme.
Employees are scored against various criteria, including achievement, self-motivation, expertise and versatility. A point is awarded to each worker for every year of service.
Sir Thomas said Rolls-Royce had contended that the length of service criterion in collective agreements relating to the company’s Derby and Hucknall sites was “unlawful age discrimination which cannot be justified”. The union argued that it was lawful.
Finding for the union, Sir Thomas said: “The criterion of length of service respects the loyalty and experience of the older workforce and protects the older employees from being put onto the labour market at a time when they are particularly likely to find alternative employment hard to find.”
The judge gave Rolls-Royce permission to appeal his ruling saying it was “clearly an important point for both parties”.
David Reade, QC, a barrister at Littleton Chambers, said: "The battleground of age discrimination is justification and this judgment appears to provide significant support for those justifying policies which favour longer serving, and therefore probably older, workers
An interesting precedent and the first time that LIFO has been tested in court (to my knowledge).
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Hi Dan,
Very interesting. I've tried to find this article in The London Times 17 Oct but to no avail. Could you check the date again or if possible provide a link to that article.
Thanks
V
Very interesting. I've tried to find this article in The London Times 17 Oct but to no avail. Could you check the date again or if possible provide a link to that article.
Thanks
V
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Some outfits, No Lodge = No promotion. Rules out merit in a lot of cases.
Seniority is the only fair way of advancing personal. If I knew I had "jumped the Que" I would be unable to hold my head up. Taking a place that is not yours, is theft.
Seniority is the only fair way of advancing personal. If I knew I had "jumped the Que" I would be unable to hold my head up. Taking a place that is not yours, is theft.
Last edited by Stingaling; 20th Oct 2008 at 06:23.
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Or maybe on the other hand some of us F/Os would like a seniority list....would of perhaps stopped 21 GB F/Os politely stepping in front of me on the command list.
As far as I am aware for airlines with seniority lists, if you are good enough and your number comes up you get a go at a command course. If you are not good enough you will fail it, would certainly stop the less competant base captains seeking revenge on the F/Os that have p****d them off over the years ( and believe me we are talking about raising legitimate concerns over fuel decisions etc, and then the BC taking it personally and holding guys back!).
As far as I am aware for airlines with seniority lists, if you are good enough and your number comes up you get a go at a command course. If you are not good enough you will fail it, would certainly stop the less competant base captains seeking revenge on the F/Os that have p****d them off over the years ( and believe me we are talking about raising legitimate concerns over fuel decisions etc, and then the BC taking it personally and holding guys back!).
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suitcaseman
You views would not be out of place at a 3rd rate outfit in a banana republic.
Have you ever been the victim or your polices, of ignoring seniority? No didn't think so, or you would not be talking such rubbish, or you suffer from selective amnesia. Try being walked on and stepped over and see if you then crow the same tune.
"Seniority is fairly unique to aviation". Your views are not unique but it seems you are new to aviation and your man management skills may need looking at.
What the hell gives a person the right to leave a company at the top of the food chain and move into another company in the same position?* Anyone with any integrity would not do that. I have been offered positions in within companies after applying. At interview I have enquired as to the availability of 1st officers within their company, who could do the job if they were upgraded. One Chief pilot said to me, "what business is it of yours?" I said it is my business for 2 reasons. 1/ I have a conscience and refuse to "step on toes." 2/ If I am offered the job and I accept I have to work with the people whose jobs I am stealing.
I am in lower management now and will not tolerate any attempts at queue jumping. Also, I am aware that crews are the companies most valuable asset, apart from the aircraft. Happy personal are safer personal, more dedicated, therefore will stick around longer. People have very long memories.
When a seniority system is established, **** licking, **** sucking and grovelling in general are pointless exercises. That is something I wont and now don't have to endure.
Please don't get me started on nepotism.
* There is the exception, as to top management, when someone, exceptional, young and with new ideas are required. Anyone at the top of a seniority list in general, would probably be too old to be considered. if they were really smart, they would refuse the position.
You views would not be out of place at a 3rd rate outfit in a banana republic.
Have you ever been the victim or your polices, of ignoring seniority? No didn't think so, or you would not be talking such rubbish, or you suffer from selective amnesia. Try being walked on and stepped over and see if you then crow the same tune.
"Seniority is fairly unique to aviation". Your views are not unique but it seems you are new to aviation and your man management skills may need looking at.
What the hell gives a person the right to leave a company at the top of the food chain and move into another company in the same position?* Anyone with any integrity would not do that. I have been offered positions in within companies after applying. At interview I have enquired as to the availability of 1st officers within their company, who could do the job if they were upgraded. One Chief pilot said to me, "what business is it of yours?" I said it is my business for 2 reasons. 1/ I have a conscience and refuse to "step on toes." 2/ If I am offered the job and I accept I have to work with the people whose jobs I am stealing.
I am in lower management now and will not tolerate any attempts at queue jumping. Also, I am aware that crews are the companies most valuable asset, apart from the aircraft. Happy personal are safer personal, more dedicated, therefore will stick around longer. People have very long memories.
When a seniority system is established, **** licking, **** sucking and grovelling in general are pointless exercises. That is something I wont and now don't have to endure.
Please don't get me started on nepotism.
* There is the exception, as to top management, when someone, exceptional, young and with new ideas are required. Anyone at the top of a seniority list in general, would probably be too old to be considered. if they were really smart, they would refuse the position.
Last edited by Stingaling; 20th Oct 2008 at 13:01.
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Suitcaseman,
Alternatively, join a decent airline and wait your turn. Rather than joining a sh1thouse outfit hoping for a quick command and then trying to jump the queue at decent airlines.
Take your pick, but I know which one is the correct way. And for clarity, it's not the solution you advocate.
Alternatively, join a decent airline and wait your turn. Rather than joining a sh1thouse outfit hoping for a quick command and then trying to jump the queue at decent airlines.
Take your pick, but I know which one is the correct way. And for clarity, it's not the solution you advocate.