Forced unpaid leave at ryanair
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Ignore these idiots and there lies. People can write what they like in here about the amount of money they make, you only have to look at Kremlins' rants about how he makes 3 times as much as a Ryanair Captain.
Viking101 is simply another shyte stirrer in the same mould with nothing better to do but trawl the threads on pprune.
I'm off on two weeks holiday now, paid for by MOL incidentally.
Viking101 is simply another shyte stirrer in the same mould with nothing better to do but trawl the threads on pprune.
I'm off on two weeks holiday now, paid for by MOL incidentally.
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Hang on, ok Ryanair is not popular. I also don't like the company BUT the pay is good. Much better than what you get in most of the other compagnies.
p.s no i do not work for ryanair
p.s no i do not work for ryanair
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I also don't like the company BUT the pay is good. Much better than what you get in most of the other compagnies.
Look at packages not just take home figures. Then take out of your ryanair take home pay all the things that other airlines provide as part of the package, then look at hours worked for the money and also pray you don't go long term sick...............then demonstrate how much better it is than most.PP
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Doesn't matter if you have a perm contract
This is from a Permanent Ryanair's Contract of Employment issued in Oct 06
20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.
I expect that people signing this contract didn't envisage market conditions as they are today
20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.
I expect that people signing this contract didn't envisage market conditions as they are today
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We have approx 40 % temporary contract pilots at Ryanair.
We are cutting back less than 40% for the winter routes.
Therefore we do not have "excess capacity".
There's no visible cash saving by telling the contractors that they are not required for x amount of time.
To Ryanair it's a small cash saving by forcing it's loyal permanent employees to take un paid leave. It's not a make or break of the airline.
Negotiations in Ryanair - Take it or Leave
We are cutting back less than 40% for the winter routes.
Therefore we do not have "excess capacity".
There's no visible cash saving by telling the contractors that they are not required for x amount of time.
To Ryanair it's a small cash saving by forcing it's loyal permanent employees to take un paid leave. It's not a make or break of the airline.
Negotiations in Ryanair - Take it or Leave
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A simple question for ryanair pilots, for example, if you send today(1st Oct) a request for an unpaid leave from 3rd October to 23rd October (short notice), it would be reasonable to be granted or they can shift the period at their convenience?
Thanks
FB
Thanks
FB
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Is FR still not employing anyone after the Oct course?
Speaking of "packages" that is totally correct. Apparently FR pilots does not get any water, crew food, snacks at all during the long working days either. I heard a rumour many years ago that staff was not even aloud to charge their mobile at work due to the elec bill...
Depending on contract, you get a salary incl or excl tax too. No pension payed either. Or social security. So I guess its really up to you how to count and how you want to build up your future. Putting money under your bed has always its risks too though..
Speaking of "packages" that is totally correct. Apparently FR pilots does not get any water, crew food, snacks at all during the long working days either. I heard a rumour many years ago that staff was not even aloud to charge their mobile at work due to the elec bill...
Depending on contract, you get a salary incl or excl tax too. No pension payed either. Or social security. So I guess its really up to you how to count and how you want to build up your future. Putting money under your bed has always its risks too though..
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@pilot pete: Yes every company is different, so you are always comparing apples with oranges. But after reducing taxes and social security im' sure that a RYR F/O has still a nice income. Making loads of money without working or working little every month is just an illusion.
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Dreadful news biabottle. Just a thought however. With this massive reduction in capacity there is presumably less to manage, I expect therefore that office workers, accountants and mol will also be availing of this leave. Or maybe its just the Pilots powers of rationalization they are relying on.
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Inner,
You live in a dream world.
FR pay and package is poor, when you do as Pilot Pete says and cost things up.
It's not all about just take home pay.
As Pete says, pray you don't get ill at FR, you will be down the road with no help. And believe me, your money will not last long on unemployment benefit.
I know about getting ill. I am 34 and just got diagnosed with Leukaemia. Thank God I work for a decent outfit, where I have been paid full pay for 6 months and will keep getting paid at 75% for a long time.
And if I die? My wife and child are well cared for.
What will your family get?
You live in a dream world.
FR pay and package is poor, when you do as Pilot Pete says and cost things up.
It's not all about just take home pay.
As Pete says, pray you don't get ill at FR, you will be down the road with no help. And believe me, your money will not last long on unemployment benefit.
I know about getting ill. I am 34 and just got diagnosed with Leukaemia. Thank God I work for a decent outfit, where I have been paid full pay for 6 months and will keep getting paid at 75% for a long time.
And if I die? My wife and child are well cared for.
What will your family get?
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Standead,
Very sorry to hear about that mate, but am glad to hear you at least dont have to worry financially.
In my 'other' life I own and run an IFA business and constantly come into contact with clients who believe they have adequate cover through their employers, but when in comes down to the crunch long term sick pay can often amount to no more than a year or 2, after which you can often be forced to return to work in a different (lower paid) capacity.
Employers on the whole very rarely offer comprehensive employee benefits packages these days, and tend to only be the very large international organisations (or in this case Flag carriers). Max benefits tend to be 4x salary death in service (not incl bonuses, o/t etc), full sick pay for 6 to 12 months (then at company discretion - see above), some medical (Bupa) cover if you are lucky, company contribution to pension scheme (finally salaries are long gone! - and the contributions tend to be around 6% of salary).
For the self employed / contractors, and those employees who wish top up benefits the cost can be supprisingly low (obviously it depends on age and any existing medical conditions). But as a contractor 37yrs old who wants all of the above I would be looking at no more than £150pm for the all the insurances (and that would include max sick pay benefits 75% of income up until retirement - guaranteed).
That just leaves the pension contribution. As a cadet going into RYR, after line training, I would expect income of around £60k pa. So lets take the 6% pension contribution of that. Which means that I would be on nett £56,400, take off the £150pm for the insurances, means that in order to receive max benefits I would be on £54,600 nett of all costs (let me know if I have missed some benefits out? - oh yeh food and drink at lunch time. Well lets say £7/ day over 20 days per month over 11 months = £1540). So we are down to £53,060.
(I am not going to take the line training cost and cost of uniform £250, and change of License to IAA £300, as this is a career cost. So if I was I would have to spread this cost over the term of my career as a pilot. Which currently is an unknown quantity unless I took the normal retirement age. But if I could find a airline who would pay for the TR then they give you reduced salary anyway.........etc, etc )
Now, can someone show me another airline who is going to pay a low houred cadet (200hrs TT) more than £53,060 (with the benefits above) in the first year after training? Because I cant find one.
Cheers
Very sorry to hear about that mate, but am glad to hear you at least dont have to worry financially.
In my 'other' life I own and run an IFA business and constantly come into contact with clients who believe they have adequate cover through their employers, but when in comes down to the crunch long term sick pay can often amount to no more than a year or 2, after which you can often be forced to return to work in a different (lower paid) capacity.
Employers on the whole very rarely offer comprehensive employee benefits packages these days, and tend to only be the very large international organisations (or in this case Flag carriers). Max benefits tend to be 4x salary death in service (not incl bonuses, o/t etc), full sick pay for 6 to 12 months (then at company discretion - see above), some medical (Bupa) cover if you are lucky, company contribution to pension scheme (finally salaries are long gone! - and the contributions tend to be around 6% of salary).
For the self employed / contractors, and those employees who wish top up benefits the cost can be supprisingly low (obviously it depends on age and any existing medical conditions). But as a contractor 37yrs old who wants all of the above I would be looking at no more than £150pm for the all the insurances (and that would include max sick pay benefits 75% of income up until retirement - guaranteed).
That just leaves the pension contribution. As a cadet going into RYR, after line training, I would expect income of around £60k pa. So lets take the 6% pension contribution of that. Which means that I would be on nett £56,400, take off the £150pm for the insurances, means that in order to receive max benefits I would be on £54,600 nett of all costs (let me know if I have missed some benefits out? - oh yeh food and drink at lunch time. Well lets say £7/ day over 20 days per month over 11 months = £1540). So we are down to £53,060.
(I am not going to take the line training cost and cost of uniform £250, and change of License to IAA £300, as this is a career cost. So if I was I would have to spread this cost over the term of my career as a pilot. Which currently is an unknown quantity unless I took the normal retirement age. But if I could find a airline who would pay for the TR then they give you reduced salary anyway.........etc, etc )
Now, can someone show me another airline who is going to pay a low houred cadet (200hrs TT) more than £53,060 (with the benefits above) in the first year after training? Because I cant find one.
Cheers
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It's off the subject re: unpaid leave,but just an observation Jason.
After line training (lets say it's 150 hours) the next 350 hours will be paid at €45* pbh. That comes out to €15750, then the remainding 400 hours at €70* per sbh = €28000. So assuming you do 900 hours in your first year from base training (which is highly unlikely at the moment) then from the day you do the 6 circuits, the absolute most you can earn in year one is €43k.
Year 2 is a bit different, 900 hours x €70* per sbh is €63k.
The only way that you'll earn the figures they tell you at the Cadet open day is to fly 900 hrs per annum and on a roaming Brookfield contract. You might expect £60k after line training, but you wont get it.
*I've deducted the €5 ph for sim training and this is based on someone who trained with the old Ryanair training contract.
After line training (lets say it's 150 hours) the next 350 hours will be paid at €45* pbh. That comes out to €15750, then the remainding 400 hours at €70* per sbh = €28000. So assuming you do 900 hours in your first year from base training (which is highly unlikely at the moment) then from the day you do the 6 circuits, the absolute most you can earn in year one is €43k.
Year 2 is a bit different, 900 hours x €70* per sbh is €63k.
The only way that you'll earn the figures they tell you at the Cadet open day is to fly 900 hrs per annum and on a roaming Brookfield contract. You might expect £60k after line training, but you wont get it.
*I've deducted the €5 ph for sim training and this is based on someone who trained with the old Ryanair training contract.
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Jason,
Show me where you will get insurance for that money. I am intrigued !! Not that I could get it anymore.
As for a 6% pension? That will get you a very VERY bad pension from age 37.
See what I mean?
Show me where you will get insurance for that money. I am intrigued !! Not that I could get it anymore.
As for a 6% pension? That will get you a very VERY bad pension from age 37.
See what I mean?
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jasonjdr,
After dusting off the salary scale from the back of the wardrobe I can say that the airline I work for pays in euros a basic salary to a year one cadet (defined as in the past a sponsored airline cadet, or today a 200 hour non rated recently finished flight training pilot) of €60,818 euros to be exact. On top of this the company contributes a further 21% of this salary towards their pension which in this case as a year one pilot is a further €12,771 euros. Net sector pay amounts to €10,000 and a flying perfomance pay agreement, assuming flying 870 annual hours (which is the average amount these days in the company) amounts to a further €18,000 euros. (This amount calculated at a rate of €60 per block hour over 570 annual hours up to a maximum of 900 hours for a First Officer regardless of years of service and €80 per hour as a captain)
To add it all up then it comes to year 1 cadet entry 'package' of €101,589 euros. Salary is paid from the day you join, type rating is paid for and bond only applies if you leave within the first three years. Nothing taken out of your salary towards it. Uniform, medicals, sim sessions and car parking all paid for by the company. These figures are documented on ppjn and are accurate.
So as Pilot Pete said in an earlier post, it can be the package that's important, not alway the direct salary, hence the reason a huge number of Ryanair pilots joined the company last year, giving up their commands to start at the very bottom again. (Bottom being every new pilot regardless of whether you have 20,000 hours or 200 hours start on the same scale and you all move up accordingly through years of service rather than experience)
I must stress however that many of our new colleagues joining from Ryanair had nothing but good things to say about Ryanair and their time there. They opted out because they felt the 'package' was better at our place. Personally I'm not going to make a negative comment towards Ryanair as others in this thread as I have no connection or have never dealt with them.
So in fairness, there are airlines paying reasonable salaries out there, with packages far superior to in this case Ryanair. Not wanting to get involved in this discussion directly as it has no relevance to me I still feel I have to make the point as a comparison to your post.
Now, can someone show me another airline who is going to pay a low houred cadet (200hrs TT) more than £53,060 (with the benefits above) in the first year after training? Because I cant find one.
To add it all up then it comes to year 1 cadet entry 'package' of €101,589 euros. Salary is paid from the day you join, type rating is paid for and bond only applies if you leave within the first three years. Nothing taken out of your salary towards it. Uniform, medicals, sim sessions and car parking all paid for by the company. These figures are documented on ppjn and are accurate.
So as Pilot Pete said in an earlier post, it can be the package that's important, not alway the direct salary, hence the reason a huge number of Ryanair pilots joined the company last year, giving up their commands to start at the very bottom again. (Bottom being every new pilot regardless of whether you have 20,000 hours or 200 hours start on the same scale and you all move up accordingly through years of service rather than experience)
I must stress however that many of our new colleagues joining from Ryanair had nothing but good things to say about Ryanair and their time there. They opted out because they felt the 'package' was better at our place. Personally I'm not going to make a negative comment towards Ryanair as others in this thread as I have no connection or have never dealt with them.
So in fairness, there are airlines paying reasonable salaries out there, with packages far superior to in this case Ryanair. Not wanting to get involved in this discussion directly as it has no relevance to me I still feel I have to make the point as a comparison to your post.
Last edited by Lord Lardy; 1st Oct 2008 at 13:41.
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Sorry, yes I went off topic there. If anyone wants to discuss further pls PM me.
SD,
Your figures are wrong. My new contract states higher hourly rates. But your point is taken re the 900pa. (ntb, max hrs for line training is 120, avg is about 80 to 90)
Stanstead,
Yes 6% will not give you much from age 37, it was not meant to assume someone who had started from scratch at that age! But luckily I started a looooong time ago saving for my retirement. If you want quotes for insurance PM me
Although, as I mentioned, it does depend on previous medical conditions and unfortunately you would not be eligible for those sort of premiums as they assume a clean medical history, non-smoker, etc.
Lord Lardy.
But you did not state the carrier? and this is to a cadet with no TR fresh out of integrated 200tt. PM me if you prefer not to state in front of all.......but I am intrigued.
(its ok, just figured it out for myself. I had no luck at that door unfortunately. Aren't we all going to be working together soon anyway, hehe
. Thats another thread, I think!)
SD,
Your figures are wrong. My new contract states higher hourly rates. But your point is taken re the 900pa. (ntb, max hrs for line training is 120, avg is about 80 to 90)
Stanstead,
Yes 6% will not give you much from age 37, it was not meant to assume someone who had started from scratch at that age! But luckily I started a looooong time ago saving for my retirement. If you want quotes for insurance PM me
Although, as I mentioned, it does depend on previous medical conditions and unfortunately you would not be eligible for those sort of premiums as they assume a clean medical history, non-smoker, etc.Lord Lardy.
But you did not state the carrier? and this is to a cadet with no TR fresh out of integrated 200tt. PM me if you prefer not to state in front of all.......but I am intrigued.
(its ok, just figured it out for myself. I had no luck at that door unfortunately. Aren't we all going to be working together soon anyway, hehe
. Thats another thread, I think!)
Last edited by jasonjdr; 1st Oct 2008 at 13:46.
. Thats another thread, I think!)
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Jason,
I think you'll find the average sectors to initial line check are 80, and that the maximum amount of sectors is 120.
Again, I think you'll find that the rates for a Brookfield contractor are
Less than 500 Hours JAR 25 - €50 per sbh
Greater than 500 Hours but less than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €75 per sbh
Greater than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €80 per sbh
All of the above are minus €4.50 per hour for sim
If Brookfield have put the rates up, then I'll happily be made wrong when that old cheque lands on the doormat.
Good luck with the type rating.
I think you'll find the average sectors to initial line check are 80, and that the maximum amount of sectors is 120.
Again, I think you'll find that the rates for a Brookfield contractor are
Less than 500 Hours JAR 25 - €50 per sbh
Greater than 500 Hours but less than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €75 per sbh
Greater than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €80 per sbh
All of the above are minus €4.50 per hour for sim
If Brookfield have put the rates up, then I'll happily be made wrong when that old cheque lands on the doormat.
Good luck with the type rating.