Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?
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Ah, reading this makes you proud to be British!
All across America there are pilots in full support of BA pilots (even thought this will have little effect on American pilots) because they have already been shafted and don't want to see it happen again.
Then on this side of the pond we have the small minded, bitter, twisted individuals who would cut their nose off to spite their face because they feel they were harshly treated in the past.
No wonder the country is in such a mess.
If you felt hard done by in the past just wait until (if) BA get their way.
All across America there are pilots in full support of BA pilots (even thought this will have little effect on American pilots) because they have already been shafted and don't want to see it happen again.
Then on this side of the pond we have the small minded, bitter, twisted individuals who would cut their nose off to spite their face because they feel they were harshly treated in the past.
No wonder the country is in such a mess.If you felt hard done by in the past just wait until (if) BA get their way.
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I really do not get some of the reasoning and bitterness about stuff that has got nothing to do with the current situation.
I joined BA only a couple of years ago, trying to make a better living for me and my family.
95% of the guys/girls I fly with are top notch operators/consumate professionals and are well aware of the state of industry as it is in now.
This is partly due to our CURRENT excellent Company Council who I think ARE changing the way a professional union should respond ; but it's also due to people applying foresight and informing themselves about what 'will or could' happen in the future (be it tomorrow or in 10 years time).
I am absolutely sure mistakes have been made in the past, however its implications on how to act today bear no relevance to me. I'm staggered about people spouting untruths without informing themselves, and the blinkered view that it won't affect them.
I've been in the LOCO world and towards management within it and we certainly benchmarked ourselves a) to our direct competitors and b) to legacy carriers. To retain talent suitable for promotion and reduced training cost/turn over.
In no other profession have I seen so much bitterness/anxiety and resentment then in aviation. We owe it to ourselves to be professionals and support eachother.
Keep this industry somewhere dignified and a good job to support a wife and kids.
I'm doing 900hrs a year, can get called anytime in the week to come to work.
My pension won't be more than 25k a year (after 30years service, thanks to the new pension deal) and I'm certainly earning less than I would have earned as a Captain in my previous company for many years to come.
So in short, we are just like any other company now and fight for what is left.
Management love the divide and conquer rule, and seemingly on pprune it's all too easy to create that scenario without management input.
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.
A humble BA pilot
I joined BA only a couple of years ago, trying to make a better living for me and my family.
95% of the guys/girls I fly with are top notch operators/consumate professionals and are well aware of the state of industry as it is in now.
This is partly due to our CURRENT excellent Company Council who I think ARE changing the way a professional union should respond ; but it's also due to people applying foresight and informing themselves about what 'will or could' happen in the future (be it tomorrow or in 10 years time).
I am absolutely sure mistakes have been made in the past, however its implications on how to act today bear no relevance to me. I'm staggered about people spouting untruths without informing themselves, and the blinkered view that it won't affect them.
I've been in the LOCO world and towards management within it and we certainly benchmarked ourselves a) to our direct competitors and b) to legacy carriers. To retain talent suitable for promotion and reduced training cost/turn over.
In no other profession have I seen so much bitterness/anxiety and resentment then in aviation. We owe it to ourselves to be professionals and support eachother.
Keep this industry somewhere dignified and a good job to support a wife and kids.
I'm doing 900hrs a year, can get called anytime in the week to come to work.
My pension won't be more than 25k a year (after 30years service, thanks to the new pension deal) and I'm certainly earning less than I would have earned as a Captain in my previous company for many years to come.
So in short, we are just like any other company now and fight for what is left.
Management love the divide and conquer rule, and seemingly on pprune it's all too easy to create that scenario without management input.
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.
A humble BA pilot
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Jambo - Habari?
Good post and good luck to you, although I have to wonder why you left your previous - it sounds like you're a junior LHR FO. Hope it works out for you, genuinely.
You suggested:
Which is great, human, and sensible. The trouble is those of us who have had our attempts to do exactly what you propose,
have found their careers in ruins and themselves disadvantaged for no good reason other than the arrogance and selfishness of the modern day equivalent of the "Atlantic Barons".
Being human, it's difficult to reconcile that with the pleas for support via IFALPA from those same people - even though I believe they are actually right in their supposition that OS is the thin edge of a very fat wedge which will inevitably reduce Ts and Cs across the Industry.
Fortunately I have no card to play, and no money in the pot. I chose a more sedate regional route and am happy and content with family etc all doing well. However when I read some of the cant and hypocrisy, not to mention the downright lies regarding what happened to my previous organisation when it was part of BA PLC - well, the blood tends to heat up a bit.
Sincere apologies to anyone I've offended here, it's impossible to know which of the more erudite characters were really in situ at the time, but I was, so I know!!!
You suggested:
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.
trying to make a better living for me and my family
Being human, it's difficult to reconcile that with the pleas for support via IFALPA from those same people - even though I believe they are actually right in their supposition that OS is the thin edge of a very fat wedge which will inevitably reduce Ts and Cs across the Industry.
Fortunately I have no card to play, and no money in the pot. I chose a more sedate regional route and am happy and content with family etc all doing well. However when I read some of the cant and hypocrisy, not to mention the downright lies regarding what happened to my previous organisation when it was part of BA PLC - well, the blood tends to heat up a bit.
Sincere apologies to anyone I've offended here, it's impossible to know which of the more erudite characters were really in situ at the time, but I was, so I know!!!
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The question at hand is; "Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys (sic)?"
As an FO effectively forced out of GSS by the retrospective imposition of secondments, and based on several other deeply callous and arrogant actions by the BACC/BALPA over the years, I would say; emphatically no!
If the question were "should we support BA pilots re OS", I would say yes.
As an FO effectively forced out of GSS by the retrospective imposition of secondments, and based on several other deeply callous and arrogant actions by the BACC/BALPA over the years, I would say; emphatically no!
If the question were "should we support BA pilots re OS", I would say yes.
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Hear hear!
It seems that BA pilots are fortunate that some of us are less greedy, selfish and arrogant than the BACC representatives have been down the years.
However, if you really want support, buy a crutch - all of our kind words will make no difference to the outcome. More, if I needed a job, (and I'm certainly well enough qualified), I would be phoning OS, and certainly not deterred by the 'Scab' word. When we talk about supporting our families, our own are always more important than anyone else's. That is a concept that the Porsche Pickets seem unable to understand.
It seems that BA pilots are fortunate that some of us are less greedy, selfish and arrogant than the BACC representatives have been down the years.
However, if you really want support, buy a crutch - all of our kind words will make no difference to the outcome. More, if I needed a job, (and I'm certainly well enough qualified), I would be phoning OS, and certainly not deterred by the 'Scab' word. When we talk about supporting our families, our own are always more important than anyone else's. That is a concept that the Porsche Pickets seem unable to understand.
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It's interesting that all the bile and venom on these threads seems to originate from those who have never had the balls to stand up to their own employers. Rarely does one see that sort of criticism from the pilots of strong companies with decent BALPA representation. Perhaps they recognise their fate lies in their own hands instead of always wishing to blame somebody else for their woes?
strong companies with decent BALPA representation.
The problem is that there is a wide perception that the BACC used that strength and representation to further there own interest at the expense of pilots with less barganing power, even though those pilots were in the same union.
We could argue (and Tandem Rotor could make snide, pompous and thus self-defeating remarks!!) till next century as to the ins and outs of the actual individual circumstances, but it is that peception you are up against.
To go to the wider pilot community with the case that "We've looked after ourselves in the past, now help us look after ourselves in the future" is going to be dismissed by sufficient pilots (a good many ex BACX turbo-prop pilots as a convenient example!!) to crew Open Skies and any other five subsiduries BA wish to start!
Perhaps a little ownership of this resentment, and a quid pro quo, more inclusive attitude in future might engender more support.
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It's a union Wiz, not a communist society. The cases you site are never about an individual company building up it's own business, finding it's own market and customer base then having it stolen away by BA pilots. The cases are other outfits attempting to steal away business from BA pilots. GSS, a blatant breach of the BA scope agreement with a single, solitary customer; BA. BACX RJ fleet, a direct transfer of work and career opportunities out of BA to a lower cost outfit. Tell me honestly, do you think a union that supports direct transfer of work from higher to lower paid workers in any profession is a union worth having? If your management tried to hand over a 12 strong fleet of your 777s to a lower paid subsidiary and exclude you from flying them, would you really support that?
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GSS, a blatant breach of the BA scope agreement
As you cant be bothered it says that mainline may 'bid aspirationally' onto ACMI freighter commands (and freight goes to mainline when >6 a/c) - NOT that ACMI freighters would be prohibited.
The problem was that the whole thing wasn't going to work unless BALPA let GSS recruit lots of FOs and let it get running for a year or two, before dropping the bombshell on the GSS FOs that their commands were to be given to BA FOs. Just to rub it in, nothing (such as staff travel or seniority list access) was offered as recompense - GSS was BA territory when it came to taking commands there, but not BA territory when it came to anything else.
As for being spineless, seeing as BALPA was orchestrating the whole thing, who were we supposed to turn to? - IPA - yeah, right!
Anyway, I think we digress
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Very eloquent words my friend Shaka Zulu, very nice. In lowcost land, every year we hope our salaries get benchmarkt with BA's...true, true...but here is the question amigo.
You ask for the support of the rest of the flying community, but would BA pilots support their comrades in easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair etc. when they put down their tools?For I am sure that you agree that the lowco's have had a far greater impact on BA than any benchmarking will ever have. So when the day comes will you join them in battle? Or will you too look on from the sidelines? Can they count on the BA-pilots?
Tell me yes, and I will believe you. I want to. Unity is what we all need.
You ask for the support of the rest of the flying community, but would BA pilots support their comrades in easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair etc. when they put down their tools?For I am sure that you agree that the lowco's have had a far greater impact on BA than any benchmarking will ever have. So when the day comes will you join them in battle? Or will you too look on from the sidelines? Can they count on the BA-pilots?
Tell me yes, and I will believe you. I want to. Unity is what we all need.
No prob, hand.
I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!
I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!
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Penko, I think the answer to that question has got many facets.
First of all , you need a union with a sufficient member base and sufficient backing to carry a strike vote....
Look at RYR: divide and conquer, play every base out against eachother. Thats why MOL objects so violently against REPA, a concerted effort to have everyone on mutual ground.
It's the LAST thing he wants.
EZY: Has got the union representation and the membership base to pack a punch. Hence it's T&C's are what they are. However the company is trying to dilute union involvement as much as RYR tries to do. Setting up different bases/different contracts and make them isolated from eachother. >>divide and conquer.
Wiz: Not familiar with the situation.
Second of all, even if you have the percentages, what issues do you 'ballot' to strike over and which do you not. I think it's clear in the past that some issues should have been taken on the head however it's important to remember that if you poll for a strike and the support crumbles for whatever reason effectively the union is dead in the water and can be sued for damages aswell. More importantly the company will claw back far more than what you were originally striking over.
Ultimately it's very very difficult balancing risk/gain and membership sentiments (REAL membership sentiments)
Prime example is the final salary pension and the contribution pension that BA has now.
It's not a shimmer of it's previous self. However I've flown with no-one that has sais they were in favour of the new pension deal. Interesting when there was a majority vote for it to save the old....
Even if a strike was decreed would there have been the support of the membership to push it all the way.
Only with a proper information campaign is it possible to get guys thinking along the same line. And this is effectively where the current BA company council is SOOO different compared to the old.
So yes, from my perspective and I would guess BALPA's aswell if there is a clear vote/backing/and sensible issues to strike over then I think you will find a lot of support around the globe for your actions. The key is information.
@Wiz, I would hope we tend to be fairly introspective and rumours about what we 'should/could' have done in the past have been rearing up on our private forums aswell with considerable differences in opinion.
I think it's important to remember the union/councils dilemma in aligning all the differences of opinion. I'm saying that the job of aligning is done the best I've seen it over OpenSkies.
Part of that is, there is so much at stake, short and long term.
First of all , you need a union with a sufficient member base and sufficient backing to carry a strike vote....
Look at RYR: divide and conquer, play every base out against eachother. Thats why MOL objects so violently against REPA, a concerted effort to have everyone on mutual ground.
It's the LAST thing he wants.
EZY: Has got the union representation and the membership base to pack a punch. Hence it's T&C's are what they are. However the company is trying to dilute union involvement as much as RYR tries to do. Setting up different bases/different contracts and make them isolated from eachother. >>divide and conquer.
Wiz: Not familiar with the situation.
Second of all, even if you have the percentages, what issues do you 'ballot' to strike over and which do you not. I think it's clear in the past that some issues should have been taken on the head however it's important to remember that if you poll for a strike and the support crumbles for whatever reason effectively the union is dead in the water and can be sued for damages aswell. More importantly the company will claw back far more than what you were originally striking over.
Ultimately it's very very difficult balancing risk/gain and membership sentiments (REAL membership sentiments)
Prime example is the final salary pension and the contribution pension that BA has now.
It's not a shimmer of it's previous self. However I've flown with no-one that has sais they were in favour of the new pension deal. Interesting when there was a majority vote for it to save the old....
Even if a strike was decreed would there have been the support of the membership to push it all the way.
Only with a proper information campaign is it possible to get guys thinking along the same line. And this is effectively where the current BA company council is SOOO different compared to the old.
So yes, from my perspective and I would guess BALPA's aswell if there is a clear vote/backing/and sensible issues to strike over then I think you will find a lot of support around the globe for your actions. The key is information.
@Wiz, I would hope we tend to be fairly introspective and rumours about what we 'should/could' have done in the past have been rearing up on our private forums aswell with considerable differences in opinion.
I think it's important to remember the union/councils dilemma in aligning all the differences of opinion. I'm saying that the job of aligning is done the best I've seen it over OpenSkies.
Part of that is, there is so much at stake, short and long term.
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Hand said:
Sounds pretty similar to OS really then.
Wiz, great posts, common sense, keen character observations - I'm with you mate!
BACX RJ fleet, a direct transfer of work and career opportunities out of BA to a lower cost outfit. Tell me honestly, do you think a union that supports direct transfer of work from higher to lower paid workers in any profession is a union worth having?
Wiz, great posts, common sense, keen character observations - I'm with you mate!
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In what way similar to OS? The RJ transfer represented a direct reduction in the number of mainline pilots. OS would represent an increase in the number of mainline pilots. Do at least try to grasp the issues at hand before commenting.
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M.Mouse said:
As a 20 odd year BA employee I cannot tell you all how ashamed this whole sorry mess makes me feel.
I am editing this post at the request of Mr Mouse. below is the content of an email I have sent him. Odd really, I would have thought there were plenty of reasons to have felt ashamed to work for BA from dirty tricks to surcharge fixing, from disrupting flights and inconveniencing pax to mismanaging terminals. Ah well, always good to see an employee support his Company!
I wasn't aware that the specificity of your post was so well defined - I mistakenly thought that you were ashamed to work for BA for a whole variety of understandable reasons.
Please accept my apologies, I'm confident you can understand why anyone should make that mistake about a BA employee these days.
Let's make it plain - M.Mouse is only ashamed of working for BA SOME of the time, for VARIABLE reasons!
Scroll down
Nope, thought not.
Scroll down some more
Hand, you are so far up your own back passage that you cannot comprehend reality. As the Wiz commented,
I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!
The actuality is that it'll never come to a picket line - you're already screwed, you just don't realise how much of it is down to yoursleves.
Genuinely tragic, lions led by donkeys as someone remarked a few years ago, although he didn't stop to question the educational qualifications of the lions - maybe they made the donkeys look like Einstein!
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I see others viewpoints perfectly well TLP, but I also know boll*cks when I see it written. I'm sure David Irving firmly believes the Holocaust was exaggerated, but I certainly don't empathise with him or believe his writings. Now I want to make it clear that I am in no way comparing you with the odious Mr Irving, but just because you strongly believe in your view doesn't mean it's right or I should agree or empathise. In all my years on PPRuNe I think I have seen a handful of BACX pilots who had a realistic appraisal of the business situation of BACX, in that it was screwed. Wrong fleet. Too many aircraft. Too many bases. Poor crewing. Poor reliability. Wrong market position. Reliant on wet leasing contracts and monopoly routes for profits. Once the Lo-Cos came along, particularly Easyjet, BACX was a dead man walking. I don't need to tell you that you are not one of those BACX pilots. Perhaps if you, and your CC, had accepted that reality earlier you'd have behaved differently. I can't say I blame you for grasping at the BAR RJ jobs, after all a drowning man will grasp at anything to keep afloat. Just don't try to tell me that just because you are grasping at those jobs means it's right that we should hand them over lock, stock and barrel.
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That perception is accurate today, but was not so at the time in question.
All BACX pilots (and GSS, and Dan) ever wanted was what you lot are now insisting happens to OS.
(But I'm sure you can show how the strands of the debate are suffieciently different to warrant an opposite view - you reallyshould be in politics. Mind you, ain't this where Rob Hall came from and went to - hmm, thought provoking.)
Your case is a ridiculous transposition of argument based, again, on self interest.
I've nothing against self interest, after all, it's the ultimate motivator for all of us except the most saintly and unattached, however the way BACC and BALPA twist and turn makes them no more than the moral equivalent of Walsh and BA management. You deserve each other - I'm glad I'm out of it, and while I still have strong feelings about the past and will not allow the more ridiculously extreme statements to go unchallenged - ach, a pox on both your houses. The Regionals will do rather well out all this, as the debacle of T5 has shown tonight.
World's Favourite - IPML!
All BACX pilots (and GSS, and Dan) ever wanted was what you lot are now insisting happens to OS.
(But I'm sure you can show how the strands of the debate are suffieciently different to warrant an opposite view - you reallyshould be in politics. Mind you, ain't this where Rob Hall came from and went to - hmm, thought provoking.)
Your case is a ridiculous transposition of argument based, again, on self interest.
I've nothing against self interest, after all, it's the ultimate motivator for all of us except the most saintly and unattached, however the way BACC and BALPA twist and turn makes them no more than the moral equivalent of Walsh and BA management. You deserve each other - I'm glad I'm out of it, and while I still have strong feelings about the past and will not allow the more ridiculously extreme statements to go unchallenged - ach, a pox on both your houses. The Regionals will do rather well out all this, as the debacle of T5 has shown tonight.
World's Favourite - IPML!
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TLP forgive me for not being there when the whole BACX saga was unfolding but after doing a bit of research on the subject I've got the distinct impression that the 'mishandling' of it all can definitely NOT be attributed to the average normal BA line pilot.
Too many factors/too many opinions/too many ego's/too many interests....
We're digressing again into a useless discussion because of past skeletons in a very dark closet. Leave it be, just for once.
The only thing we seem best doing as aviators is moaning.
See the threats to Employment and T&C's for what they are.
I for one would like to preserve this job for future generations as something worthwile.
And so do many many of my fellow BA pilots, who display a lot of foresight and guts to take the company on over this.
Of course there is a vested self interest at the heart of it all but intrinsically there is nothing wrong with that. You have to pick your fights carefully if you want a powerful mandate to protect what is yours.
You don't necessarily have to agree, it's a democracy after all.
If you look at how market forces work than most certainly the following rule is true:
if you lower the benchmark then your own company council (if you have one) will find it harder to negotiate a good deal when you are up for improving your lot. Even find to have more downward pressure than up.
I thank anyone who comes out to support us, and do not judge your average BA line pilot on impersonal forum postings. Make your own mind up with the facts that are on the table.
regards
SZ
Too many factors/too many opinions/too many ego's/too many interests....
We're digressing again into a useless discussion because of past skeletons in a very dark closet. Leave it be, just for once.
The only thing we seem best doing as aviators is moaning.
See the threats to Employment and T&C's for what they are.
I for one would like to preserve this job for future generations as something worthwile.
And so do many many of my fellow BA pilots, who display a lot of foresight and guts to take the company on over this.
Of course there is a vested self interest at the heart of it all but intrinsically there is nothing wrong with that. You have to pick your fights carefully if you want a powerful mandate to protect what is yours.
You don't necessarily have to agree, it's a democracy after all.
If you look at how market forces work than most certainly the following rule is true:
if you lower the benchmark then your own company council (if you have one) will find it harder to negotiate a good deal when you are up for improving your lot. Even find to have more downward pressure than up.
I thank anyone who comes out to support us, and do not judge your average BA line pilot on impersonal forum postings. Make your own mind up with the facts that are on the table.
regards
SZ
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Good post Shaka.
I was at BACX too, BRAL before that, Manx before that, Loganair before that from the mid 80s onward - so I know exactly what happened. I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed, which is possibly more than many on both sides here.
I'm not going to comment though - what's the point? People have a right to be bitter - but it won't solve anything. Other people can remain intransigent in ignorant selfdenial - that won't prove anything either; the argument is not worth a bucket of warm spit!
As to the thread question, without any doubt if Open Skies flies, then ultimately the Ts and Cs of every European Airline pilot will suffer. So I hope it doesn't. Succeed.
However:
1. Will I go on strike to support BACC - No. Can't afford to, and it would be illegal.
2. Will I stand on a picket line, join a march, honk as I go past - No. I don't believe in behaving like a union dork from the 70s when I also believe it is pointless and will achieve nothing. Just more posturing.
2. Will I offer my moral support - of course, it costs nothing to scroll a post on here in the full and certain knowledge that it's free and that it will affect precisely nothing.
3. Do I think BACC will win - No.
Option a) The courts will probably say a strike is legal, but if they don't - BACC lose bigtime.
Option b) If they say it's legal, the threat remains and will cause BA management to negotiate a compromise, which will be a foot in the door, and which will precipitate the aforementioned fall in Ts and Cs. At the end of the day, being human, BACC will, just as they did with the pensions row, look after present members at the expense of future ones. That's the way it is folks. Anyone who thinks differently should re-read the posts about the pension row, remember all those threats to bring the company down if anything was changed, all the threats about really meaning it, the line in the sand, etc etc. Just meaningless trite propaganda.
We live in a world of change; change is inevitable, hence change will come. In industrial terms, change never involves the employee benefiting more than the employer (Descartes, Rousseau). Further, change always involves new and more efficient ways of functioning (Thos Paine).
Check your history books, stop squabbling - be glad you're not just starting out in the business. Forget this utterly pointless dispute, type "Peak Oil" into Google and consider how any of our futures look if we have more than five years or so still to pension. (Ah, yes, pension, well done BACC
)
I was at BACX too, BRAL before that, Manx before that, Loganair before that from the mid 80s onward - so I know exactly what happened. I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed, which is possibly more than many on both sides here.
I'm not going to comment though - what's the point? People have a right to be bitter - but it won't solve anything. Other people can remain intransigent in ignorant selfdenial - that won't prove anything either; the argument is not worth a bucket of warm spit!
As to the thread question, without any doubt if Open Skies flies, then ultimately the Ts and Cs of every European Airline pilot will suffer. So I hope it doesn't. Succeed.
However:
1. Will I go on strike to support BACC - No. Can't afford to, and it would be illegal.
2. Will I stand on a picket line, join a march, honk as I go past - No. I don't believe in behaving like a union dork from the 70s when I also believe it is pointless and will achieve nothing. Just more posturing.
2. Will I offer my moral support - of course, it costs nothing to scroll a post on here in the full and certain knowledge that it's free and that it will affect precisely nothing.
3. Do I think BACC will win - No.
Option a) The courts will probably say a strike is legal, but if they don't - BACC lose bigtime.
Option b) If they say it's legal, the threat remains and will cause BA management to negotiate a compromise, which will be a foot in the door, and which will precipitate the aforementioned fall in Ts and Cs. At the end of the day, being human, BACC will, just as they did with the pensions row, look after present members at the expense of future ones. That's the way it is folks. Anyone who thinks differently should re-read the posts about the pension row, remember all those threats to bring the company down if anything was changed, all the threats about really meaning it, the line in the sand, etc etc. Just meaningless trite propaganda.
We live in a world of change; change is inevitable, hence change will come. In industrial terms, change never involves the employee benefiting more than the employer (Descartes, Rousseau). Further, change always involves new and more efficient ways of functioning (Thos Paine).
Check your history books, stop squabbling - be glad you're not just starting out in the business. Forget this utterly pointless dispute, type "Peak Oil" into Google and consider how any of our futures look if we have more than five years or so still to pension. (Ah, yes, pension, well done BACC
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
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I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed,
I'm genuinely interested.