Upgrade to left seat or run away?
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Upgrade to left seat or run away?
I know this might sound stupid but:
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul?
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul?
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Command every time.
Long haul is boring, you'll be stuck as an FO for longer than you thought and you'll potentially see direct entry commands come along who've been LHS on a 737.
It's a personal thing. Depends how old you are, but I myself would take the command. . .
Long haul is boring, you'll be stuck as an FO for longer than you thought and you'll potentially see direct entry commands come along who've been LHS on a 737.
It's a personal thing. Depends how old you are, but I myself would take the command. . .
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No brainer. Take the command. Many people get blinkered in to thinking long haul is the be all and end all. The learning curve steepens with command and you will make yourself far more marketable in the future.
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FMC Overheat
It's not a stupid question at all and dependent on many factors. I was told to never turn down a free type rating but that came from a guy with 5 different uniforms in his closet! In most airlines Seniority is everything and a couple of numbers can make a huge difference. Having said that, P1/PIC time can mean the difference between getting or not getting the next job. The best anyone can really say is that it's a crap shoot. Take this example from the past for instance. Join prestigious Pan Am as a second officer and have a job for life or cough up your life savings for the right seat of a clapped-out, foreign-registered BAC1-11 for a start-up out of Luton, that no-one's ever heard of; Ryanair? Who'd have thunk!
Make your best guess after talking to as many people as you can.
Best of Luck
Atlast
PS I've turned down 2 free types. CV240/340/440 because it was attached to a 2 year contract in Laredo,TX and L382 because right seat on the 747 was a no-brainer!
It's not a stupid question at all and dependent on many factors. I was told to never turn down a free type rating but that came from a guy with 5 different uniforms in his closet! In most airlines Seniority is everything and a couple of numbers can make a huge difference. Having said that, P1/PIC time can mean the difference between getting or not getting the next job. The best anyone can really say is that it's a crap shoot. Take this example from the past for instance. Join prestigious Pan Am as a second officer and have a job for life or cough up your life savings for the right seat of a clapped-out, foreign-registered BAC1-11 for a start-up out of Luton, that no-one's ever heard of; Ryanair? Who'd have thunk!
Make your best guess after talking to as many people as you can.
Best of Luck
Atlast
PS I've turned down 2 free types. CV240/340/440 because it was attached to a 2 year contract in Laredo,TX and L382 because right seat on the 747 was a no-brainer!
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you say your company is sh##ty. so will life be better in the LHS of this sh##ty outfit? how long will the glow of the forth stripe last before you once again hate the place?
what i' m trying to say is: maybe better work on greener gras. and since you can't transfer that captainship to the new place why bother? unless you join the PARCetc-contract-world and work for 1-4 different more or less sh++ty companies every year...
furthermore i would be VERY carefull before choosing longhaul.
what i' m trying to say is: maybe better work on greener gras. and since you can't transfer that captainship to the new place why bother? unless you join the PARCetc-contract-world and work for 1-4 different more or less sh++ty companies every year...
furthermore i would be VERY carefull before choosing longhaul.
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Thanks guys for the differents replies so far, indeed it's a great opportunity to go left seat and then get 1000 PIC on B737 and leave that would be a wise choice.
What made me think about turning down the command offer was the strange and childish behaviour of couple of TRE/I's working with us.
Being a PIC on B737 and having 1000's hours on B737 permits in fact a lot of job opportunities like Ryanair (who's only taking non-EU captains not F/O's). Isn't that true atlast?
What made me think about turning down the command offer was the strange and childish behaviour of couple of TRE/I's working with us.
Being a PIC on B737 and having 1000's hours on B737 permits in fact a lot of job opportunities like Ryanair (who's only taking non-EU captains not F/O's). Isn't that true atlast?
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Well - for my two cents worth...
I had the same choice and, after much debating on what the most sensible thing to do was, it all came down to what I wanted out of life at the time and for the future.
I was very unhappy at my current company - working very hard multi sector lo-cost shorthaul and no life at home or outside work in general. Command was offered, assessments passed and start date for the course given. Meanwhile, alot of my friends in the company left for longhaul pastures new. No worries, I thought - take the command and at least the extra money will compensate for the rest of the pain......but for how long? And once those financial handcuffs are on - how easy will it be to take what will equate to a big pay cut to leave LHS and prob go back to RHS with a new company? I had also managed to secure a job offer from a longhaul carrier - just to make the decision harder! Many more questions filled my head every night for a considerable amount of time and all seemed to make the choice harder.....time to sort the wheat from the chaff!
So...it came down to this...WHAT was making me unhappy at my company? Answer - lifestyle due working hours. Would this change with seat change? Answer - no! If I take the command, will I be happy putting up with this - not in just the first couple of years but in the next 5, 10 or 15? Answer - no! Will the command help me in a seniority based long haul airline? Answer - not really...still start on the bottom of the seniority list with 2 stripes! Will I like longhaul? Answer - don't know!
Now, stay with me... the crunch bit....can I go back to shorthaul if I jump and dont like it? Answer - Yes! Will a command still be available. Answer - yes, either straight away or within a year probably. If I stay, move seats and am still unhappy, can I still jump ship? Answer - no, job offer will be gone! (and we all know how often they come along in many companies!)
So....I jumped ship!
Was it the right move? Well, I am sat writing this in LA after which I have 10 days off at home(where home, by the way, is now a far more sunny part of Europe than when I was at my old job!). Sure, the company has its problems, but so does ANY airline. Command is years away at present but suddenly, on the other side, that does not seem to bother me now I have what I wanted out of my life back - I have even started integrating back into the outside community and begun forming tentative friendships!!!! Will I ever go back? Not right now but who knows....at least I have the options.
So, as I said right at the top of this post, I think it all comes down to what you want out of life and your job personally. Sure, there is much advice around - you can build that CV and get command time on there, never turn down a type rating etc etc etc.....
Listen to it all and then think this....What will make YOU happy? Remember, great as this job is...it is just a job....only a part of your life, albeit a big one!
Don't know if this helps...it is just my perspective on what was, at the time, a difficult choice.
All the best, whatever you decide!
I had the same choice and, after much debating on what the most sensible thing to do was, it all came down to what I wanted out of life at the time and for the future.
I was very unhappy at my current company - working very hard multi sector lo-cost shorthaul and no life at home or outside work in general. Command was offered, assessments passed and start date for the course given. Meanwhile, alot of my friends in the company left for longhaul pastures new. No worries, I thought - take the command and at least the extra money will compensate for the rest of the pain......but for how long? And once those financial handcuffs are on - how easy will it be to take what will equate to a big pay cut to leave LHS and prob go back to RHS with a new company? I had also managed to secure a job offer from a longhaul carrier - just to make the decision harder! Many more questions filled my head every night for a considerable amount of time and all seemed to make the choice harder.....time to sort the wheat from the chaff!
So...it came down to this...WHAT was making me unhappy at my company? Answer - lifestyle due working hours. Would this change with seat change? Answer - no! If I take the command, will I be happy putting up with this - not in just the first couple of years but in the next 5, 10 or 15? Answer - no! Will the command help me in a seniority based long haul airline? Answer - not really...still start on the bottom of the seniority list with 2 stripes! Will I like longhaul? Answer - don't know!
Now, stay with me... the crunch bit....can I go back to shorthaul if I jump and dont like it? Answer - Yes! Will a command still be available. Answer - yes, either straight away or within a year probably. If I stay, move seats and am still unhappy, can I still jump ship? Answer - no, job offer will be gone! (and we all know how often they come along in many companies!)
So....I jumped ship!
Was it the right move? Well, I am sat writing this in LA after which I have 10 days off at home(where home, by the way, is now a far more sunny part of Europe than when I was at my old job!). Sure, the company has its problems, but so does ANY airline. Command is years away at present but suddenly, on the other side, that does not seem to bother me now I have what I wanted out of my life back - I have even started integrating back into the outside community and begun forming tentative friendships!!!! Will I ever go back? Not right now but who knows....at least I have the options.
So, as I said right at the top of this post, I think it all comes down to what you want out of life and your job personally. Sure, there is much advice around - you can build that CV and get command time on there, never turn down a type rating etc etc etc.....
Listen to it all and then think this....What will make YOU happy? Remember, great as this job is...it is just a job....only a part of your life, albeit a big one!
Don't know if this helps...it is just my perspective on what was, at the time, a difficult choice.
All the best, whatever you decide!
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FMC O'Heat, I assume from your username that you are talking about newer model 737 (EFIS) at the minimum. I would take the command seat unless you are talking about locking yourself into an older fleet (737 pre-300 model). Same would apply to any long-haul decision (747 Classic or older series A300/B767 for example). Once you launch a career into aircraft soon featured on "The History Channel", you are on an ever-narrowing path to Freightdogville. Assuming your decision takes you to the left seat, be sure to upgrade to any training status (LineCheckAirman, TRI, TRE, whatever they might call it) when it is open or offered to you, you seem like the reflective type so you are already ahead of the game. If you do this, your career opportunities will resemble a bullhorn rather than a funnel. Best of Luck. Timbob.
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Recalling old days... and mistakes...
In 1973, got layoff from PanAm (October War oil crisis)
Thanks to PanAm, with 707 and 727 type ratings, I got myself captain jobs overseas.
Rarely coming home to Califonia... but I was a big-time international captain...
xxx
A few weeks home in Los Angeles, 1979, a friend gave my name and number to Air California HR.
Got an interview, and offered a job a few days later.
Back then, AirCal routes were from the SFO bay area to Orange County.
Miserable fleet of little "light twins" (737-200s)...
xxx
Me - a "heavy 707 international captain"... becoming F/O on 737 local operations...? NOOOOO...!
And resign my seniority/recall rights with powerful PanAm...? NOOOOO...!
Well, what a mistake...
Some 10 years later, AirCal became part of AA...
All these AirCal guys are now 767 - 777 captains with AA...
xxx
So, damned if you do, and damned if you don´t...
I thought PanAm was forever... as TWA or Eastern... or... ???
Like you people maybe think now same, about BA, or Lufty, or... ???
Well, remember Sabena and Swissair...
xxx
My personal advice to your question, take PIC positions and type ratings as first choice... but...
Happy contrails
Thanks to PanAm, with 707 and 727 type ratings, I got myself captain jobs overseas.
Rarely coming home to Califonia... but I was a big-time international captain...
xxx
A few weeks home in Los Angeles, 1979, a friend gave my name and number to Air California HR.
Got an interview, and offered a job a few days later.
Back then, AirCal routes were from the SFO bay area to Orange County.
Miserable fleet of little "light twins" (737-200s)...
xxx
Me - a "heavy 707 international captain"... becoming F/O on 737 local operations...? NOOOOO...!
And resign my seniority/recall rights with powerful PanAm...? NOOOOO...!
Well, what a mistake...
Some 10 years later, AirCal became part of AA...
All these AirCal guys are now 767 - 777 captains with AA...
xxx
So, damned if you do, and damned if you don´t...
I thought PanAm was forever... as TWA or Eastern... or... ???
Like you people maybe think now same, about BA, or Lufty, or... ???
Well, remember Sabena and Swissair...
xxx
My personal advice to your question, take PIC positions and type ratings as first choice... but...
Happy contrails
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start doubting
Hello mates,
I would like to have some frank opinions from your side despite I am convinced I have taken the good decision:33 years old,6800h,TRI/TC MD80/90 in Europe,PIC on thi acft since 2 years and I resigned from this job as PIC.I will start an A330 course as F/O in the middle east and am looking forward,my family too,which will move with me.
I would like to have some frank opinions from your side despite I am convinced I have taken the good decision:33 years old,6800h,TRI/TC MD80/90 in Europe,PIC on thi acft since 2 years and I resigned from this job as PIC.I will start an A330 course as F/O in the middle east and am looking forward,my family too,which will move with me.
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It would be interesting to know the experience of the gentlemen advising to upgrade instead of taking the LH FO position.
Have they ever experienced the lifestyle of LH flying?
As anything in life it is a personal choice what one considers a good lifestyle, for me it is LH without a doubt and I have done both SH and LH.
I am not going back to being looked up in a crammy cockpit for my 5´th 4 leg 12 hour duty day departing at 4:45 anytime soon, 4stripes or not!
Then there is the consideration of senority, the PIC time SH will do You no good in most future LH companys if senority based and most are.
Best Regards
Heavydane
Have they ever experienced the lifestyle of LH flying?
As anything in life it is a personal choice what one considers a good lifestyle, for me it is LH without a doubt and I have done both SH and LH.
I am not going back to being looked up in a crammy cockpit for my 5´th 4 leg 12 hour duty day departing at 4:45 anytime soon, 4stripes or not!
Then there is the consideration of senority, the PIC time SH will do You no good in most future LH companys if senority based and most are.
Best Regards
Heavydane
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FMC
Please take note of NAT Z's post.
What is your situation?
Do you have an offer elsewhere yet?
Is there a bond for your LHS?
How soon is your course?
P1 is great but with the predicted
shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time.
Life is risk management, so do what feels good for you now.
PS With the number of a/c orders and if you can do the course, widebody LHS in EK is 3 years away
Good luck,
HD
Please take note of NAT Z's post.
What is your situation?
Do you have an offer elsewhere yet?
Is there a bond for your LHS?
How soon is your course?
P1 is great but with the predicted
shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time.Life is risk management, so do what feels good for you now.
PS With the number of a/c orders and if you can do the course, widebody LHS in EK is 3 years away
Good luck,
HD
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What is your situation?
Do you have an offer elsewhere yet?
Is there a bond for your LHS?
How soon is your course?
P1 is great but with the predicted shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time.
3100h TT 2800h B737. 27 y.o not married no kids.
If there's a bond for LHS, for sure there's one, min. duration is 2-3 years.
Course is scheduled to start in FEB-MAR'08. Training for PIC is taking too much time here and progression is very slow.
I've got some offers in ME and Europe and I was about to start conversion to JAA ATPL in JAN. So taking the command offer is going to mess things up.
I am not sure if I can handle the command training and the JAA conversion process at the same time!
What will be the opportunities for long haul in 2-3 years time? Who knows? This is the question?
Do you have an offer elsewhere yet?
Is there a bond for your LHS?
How soon is your course?
P1 is great but with the predicted shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time.
3100h TT 2800h B737. 27 y.o not married no kids.
If there's a bond for LHS, for sure there's one, min. duration is 2-3 years.
Course is scheduled to start in FEB-MAR'08. Training for PIC is taking too much time here and progression is very slow.
I've got some offers in ME and Europe and I was about to start conversion to JAA ATPL in JAN. So taking the command offer is going to mess things up.
I am not sure if I can handle the command training and the JAA conversion process at the same time!
What will be the opportunities for long haul in 2-3 years time? Who knows? This is the question?
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I think NAT Z post says it all. I have been in exactly the same position, albeit in the UK. (lowcost-to Long haul)
I was given some advice when I was thinking what to do……."you’ll regret it if you stay (all you will want is a stable, secure job with good quality of life) and you’ll regret if you go elsewhere (you will see you friends get commands and the extra money/stripe whatever turns you on)."
The above was very true for me until about 18 months into my current job, and then I started to see what a wonderful quality of life I had. I have no regrets at all. Get into the big seniority based airline asap.
The only word of caution would be if you ever want to work in the USA. They put a lot of emphasis on P1 time, whether it was from a Cessna or a 737 doesn’t seem to matter, even for F/o jobs.
I was given some advice when I was thinking what to do……."you’ll regret it if you stay (all you will want is a stable, secure job with good quality of life) and you’ll regret if you go elsewhere (you will see you friends get commands and the extra money/stripe whatever turns you on)."
The above was very true for me until about 18 months into my current job, and then I started to see what a wonderful quality of life I had. I have no regrets at all. Get into the big seniority based airline asap.
The only word of caution would be if you ever want to work in the USA. They put a lot of emphasis on P1 time, whether it was from a Cessna or a 737 doesn’t seem to matter, even for F/o jobs.