Ryanair AGAIN!!!

[the grim repa]

Ryanairs latest pay deal offer at STN is a deal worse than last years rejected pay deal.The twist this time is that they have the "in pocket "unelected pilot group of 3 take last years document from management with the dates scratched out and are now proposing it as our(the pilots) proposed document.very very amateurish and laughable,if it were not for the fact that these 3 bozo's are lining their pockets at the expense of co-pilots and trainees.hang your head in shame, you 3 scumbags.
The overwhelming vote against this supposed pay deal last year did not suit you and management,so now they have you do their dirty work for them.you do not even have the brqains between the 3 of you,to make out your own proposal.Such guts that only one of the three idiots was idiot enough to put his signature to it.
how do pilots,get to accept/reject this deal.By writing a letter of support along with a photocopy of their i.d. saying that we supprot you.will there be a democratic vote.NO.because you cannot win that way.
all ryanair pilots,reject this ploy to drive your terms and conditions further down the pan.stand up and be counted or lie down and be mounted.

[jazzcat2000]

I will be voting yes for the following reasons, I have been in BALPA for all my flying career but most of the F/Os I fly with are not so I cannot see us getting union recognition.
£5,000 pa towards pension
£5,000 pa allowance in lie of loss of licence etc
Flight pay of £24 per hour instead of the present block system which would have given me an extra £2000 pa over the last two years.
A stable five on four off roster with no loss of leave
+ 10.4% over four years
I know the company could take any of this away but they could also take away existing allowances.
I will still be lobbying for union recognition but if ever it happens at least we will be starting negotiations from a higher baseline.

[the grim repa]

Take it away they will.Refer to final clause.Should the company be forced to recognise any union or pilot association,the "deal" will revert to 2000 agreement.you will not be starting negotiaitons from a HIGHER BASELINE".that is about the only thing you can rely on from this farce of a document.
also remember that signing a letter of support for the erc is not you getting what is in this document.rather you signing to support the erc's submission of this document(initially formulated by management and rejected by the overwhelming pilot body).this will be the initial negotiation position,no guarantees that you are going to get anywhere near this supposed great deal.wake up and smell the coffee.this is but a further attempt to push pilot terms and conditions down the pan. see that you are a captain and will take 24 quid an hour.have a good look at how lining your pockets will affect others.
ask yourself the question,why do you think most f/o's not in balpa(a suggestion which i know to be wrong)?is it because thay are consistently shat upon by management and colleagues alike,and see nought but bad example.maybe you should try to convince them that they should be in balpa and not incorrectly assuming that they are not.you will regret signing up to this and you know it,but you feel helpless,you are not!

[jazzcat2000]

Should we get union recognition and Ryanair try to withdraw anything we will have the legal right to withdraw our labour - something that would bring the company to it's knees in a very short time.
At STN we have a huge number of F/Os, most days I fly with someone that I've never seen before and I always ask if they are in BALPA - to my huge disappointment the vast majority are not.
Therefore what the ERC is asking us to vote for is preferable to the 2% we have now.

[brownstar]

bring them to their knees. your kidding yourself. How many people do you think that we have flying for us are now contract pilots. the plan is to churn out as many low cost contract pilots as possible and undermine the industry in doing so. Guys, you know the deal here. it ain't going to get any better unless people decide they want to make a difference. If you are new to the company and are unsure, just look at the history of the negotiations and ask yourself this, is it realy about what they are offering or is it more important that as a body of pilots you are able to say yes or no to changes in your working conditions and be heard.
I would say that this is the entire weight of the debate, once this hurdle is crossed then everything else will have it's place.

[800driver]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I shall be voting yes. Why? Because it is a pay rise, although not large. The sector pay system is overall better (for Captains admittedly) Five on Four off is much better.
Would I vote FOR union recognition. The answer is yes but not yet. RYR Pilot force is too diverse with many nationalities, Contractors and Permanent. Also the main reason is the Companies continued expansion. Whilst this happens there are too many opportunities for promotion. Even the Cadets just starting will have Commands in Four to Five years, folks will not want to put there head above the parapet.

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Gander

Hey Grim Repa,

I'm just joining Ryanair but don't have access to any info from inside ryanair nor do I have my crewnumber to register with REPA. I was wondering if you could tell me where I could find/read this deal you are talking about.
Is this something happening in STN only or is that basically what can be expected at any other base in the UK/Europe.
Surprise, I also don't know what airport I'll be based at.
(off topic, where is a cadet likely to be based out of anyway?)

Any info very much appreciated.

JFA.

[IRRenewal]

Jet Fuel Addict,

What is being discussed here relates solely to STN. You have to be on the RYR payroll (i.e. not a contractor) and based at STN on the 10th of December to be eligible to have you say.

[Finman]

+ 10.4% over four years

NB this is on BASIC so it equals a MISERABLE !% PER YEAR!

Additionally:
No increase on flight pay in the deal at all.
Punitive measures if you miss a message from your base captain and don't respond within 48 hours of a LOSS of 1 Months 'allowance'.
A further loss of 1 Months allowance if you don't drive into work to say you are sick if you happen to be sick.
Probably illegal punitive measures if Union recognition is achieved.

Sign up for this 'deal' and you are dealing with the devil.

[Flaps5speed180]

There are, it has to be said, some real gems in the ERC's proposal. The following are just a sample of my favorites:

- '.......limit the increase in TRE allowances to £4,920. The ERC are confident that these changes are the minimum required to achieve a positive response from the company.'

A positive response from the company!! Get stuffed you tw@t! You should be asking for a bloody pay increase, not a further pay decrease! That would be the minimum expected of you! Why would anyone in their right mind propose a pay decrease? Moron

- 'After the recent developments in DUB it has become clear to the ERC that a significant proportion of the STN pilots wish to open discussions on a 2008 deal.'

So who are this 'significant proportion'? I certainly wasn't asked, I don't think I've ever seen the ERC at STN. They don't represent me and never will, they were elected to begin with, but I think it's safe to say that they have lost the plot and should be relieved of their posts. And why has there never been another election? Surely they weren't elected as the ERC For Life!?

- '...the company made clear that an early 2008 settlement would be of little benefit to the company, and that the current commercial environment requires a wage restraint.'

So, I gather from this last statement, regarding the meetings held between the ERC and FR management, that they tell you what they want and the ERC just laps it up, bending over backwards to accomodate the company and shaft themselves and everyone else in the process. I can't believe that the ERC would just take this at face value, OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO SAY THAT YOU IMBECILES, THEY'RE MANAGEMENT!! And all this because a small group of pilots want a miniscule payrise, whilst all the FO's and SO's take a pay cut.

Excuse me when I say F**K OFF! (There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!)

[Say Mach Number]

I say 'fair play' to our reps. At least they have the courage to go up against the management.

The reason they are still there is because no other bugger is prepared to put his head above the parapet and do the job.

It has always been seen as a poison chalice the STN ERC job.

I know one rep very well and the idea of him lining his pockets at the expense of others is complete tosh.

As for their mandate I was one of the 50 pilots that turned up at the meeting in May that said go back to the Company and try get a deal on the table unlike the other 300 who could not be bothered to get off their backsides and turn up.

Thats always been the problem with our pilots sadly they are appathetic and lethargic.

If you think you could do better have a go I know one ERC rep would be happy to hand over the reins.

So put up or shut up.

[the grim repa]

sc**w you "say mach number".they are not our reps.they are not elected by the pilot body and only represent the companys' interests in negotiations.since may of this year they have been meeting with the management in secret.however,during all this time.no pilot has been notified or asked for consultation on their future.no pilot meeting because they got their ass kicked at the last one.there is no doubt that as captains,tres and trainers they stand to gain substantially at the acceptance of this deal,while ****ting on the lower ranks.
they have NO mandate and if they want to hand over the reins,why have they not done so to date.not under any pressure are they?possibly afraid that whoever took over might not make it so lucrative for them.why are they so prolific at lying to the pilot group in their latest diatribe?why is the negotiaition of the deal preceeded by a farce where the pilots have to sign their authorisation to the erc to negotiate on their behalf.
If you want the deal "say mach number",off you go crawling on your hands and knees and sign up for it.will be listening to you bitching during the summer,how you were screwed over.
i take you include yourself in the lethargic and apathetic,or are you a level above us plebs,along with the unelected and illegal three benedicts?

[Ryanairpilot]

ladies and gents

a possibly little known fact....according to their predecessor AG the company pays extra for erc reps to be, ...well, ....erc reps. nice little earner eh?

[the grim repa]

the management are so desperate now.that they have resorted to posting a letter to crew on the internal mail(scrrewdock) full of falsirties and propoganda.it states how better of you will be by signing up to thew deal.trying to convince us now that we cannot have an opinion and we cannot add and subtract.stick it where the sun don't shine,bunch of tossers!

[Say Mach Number]

Of course the ERC reps get paid. Its £500 per year before tax. I am surprised anybody does it for that considering the grief and hassle thay get and also surprised you didnt know that chaps. You dont relly think you would do it for nothing. I say pay them more. It isnt a secret you know. I even thought about going for ERC rep at the last elections and I was told then. Sorry did i say elections. Oh yes that thing that everyone forgets happened. They happened i voted in them and my man got in. I chose not to stand thank God look at the grief you get.

And as for the letter clarified several things. Got my vote. I know which ERC rep penned most of it and it had sweet fa to do with the company.

[the grim repa]

say mach number - when were the erc elected?what was their term of office to be?and what are the rules regulating the use of erc's negotiating on others behalf without proper consultation.

"look at the grief you get" - thats what you get for playing god with other peoples lives.

the letter was penned by the management and it is well known.anyhow enjoy ****ting on your colleagues below you.your turn will come!

[Say Mach Number]

Firstly the pilots are elected by the pilot force. There was an election held and pilots put there name forward and it was voted on democratically. That was 2 years ago in STNs case. By rights its normally a one year position. However 2 years ago the a pay deal was put in front of the pilots by the Company that was truly awful. The ERC stated at the time no meaningful negotiation took place and to Vote NO. I think it was universally felt the ERC had made the right noises to vote No and so they stayed on. 1 year later and a substantially better pay deal was on the table and the ERC seemed to do ok for us but there was ground swell of opinion that BALPA/REPA were coming in and they told everyone vote NO. However BALPA/REPA have been completely anonymous since the NO vote in April. People have run out of patience. A similiar deal is back on the table this time the ERC have said go for it take the money and better time off and still go for the union route if you want but at least you have a better roster and more cash in your mits while we wait for BALPA/REPA to get its act together. If they ever do.

[the grim repa]

you are wrong,the erc elections were over 4 years ago.it was not democratic and there was no independent oversee.i think the pilots also elected repa reps.maybe that doesn't count though as it wasn't ryanair democratic.don't come on here spinning me your bs buddy.what was the result of the election?
glad to see you can now acknowledge that the erc is illegal and out of term.along with being paid by the company to be reps.sounds like a real mugabe set up to me.shouldn't make any difference though eh!!wink!wink!
BALPA/REPA have not been anonymous.au contraire,it is the pilot body who has been anonymous for the last year.BALPA have an office in STN for fr pilots,but they are too AFRAID to be seen going there.
There has never been NEGOTIATIONS in fr.do not confuse being told what you are getting and f*ck off if you don't like it as negotiations.
well they got your vote,pity you cannot see the mug they are taking you for!
people have run out of patience alright with the numbnuts in the "yes,yes,yes" or is the "me,me,me" camp.surprised if some of these clowns even read what they are signing up to.company will most likely rig the DEMOCRATIC process to help the "me" camp along.

[Say Mach Number]

I cant give you the exact date but GB,MC,PM or TO'R will prob know as they stood and i voted. It would have been when AG stood down I think 2 years ago.

I think I have been to 3 or 4 ERC meetings in that time and To'R before resigning put a questionnaire in the pigeon holes and got a good response if i remember him. Over 100 replied with their wish list.

And the ERC went armed with that to the Company.

Maybe you havent been the Company long enough to remember that GR.

Also I hate to burst your bubble but I know the letter was penned by the ERC. One in particular because I was round at his house having a cup of tea while he punched away on his computer. The only involvement the Company had was that it was sent to PB to go on Crewdock.

I know you want to believe something else but thats the facts.

Any way lets just hope we can get all pilots together one year before i retire in 20 years and agree on a way forward. To much bitching and not enough action.

[mrsofty]

Thanks for that reply say mach number.
Is it true that this substantially improved pay deal results in a rise of below the RPI inflation rate,effectively reducing STN ryanair salaries?