BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Angryfool

Has any Rep posted the other EU airlines pay scales even though they have been asked to provide evidence for their comments? Well as far as I know the answer to the latter question is NO, and the reason, well it's too confidential to be posted on the forum. Give me a break!

Perhaps you should give us a break? The reps have done the benchmarking but say it's too sensitive to be posted on the forum. Why not approach them personally, they may be happy to divulge the information. You are suggesting we don't trust the reps, who have been talking about collecting benchmarking information for years, simply because they don't publish it. On the other hand we are expected to trust you that other airlines earn more than us simply on a hunch. Who lacks credibility here?

The basis for this rumour is a BA manager, and yes, he might be lying and stirring it up, then maybe perhaps not. But it's strange how several BA managers have now said this, and around the same time, Balpa start talking about how costly we are.

I've read the BALPA forum thread on this, so I know who the manager is and I'll have a pretty good guess at who you are. For your benefit I will explain some truths about BA. Firstly, everyone joins full of bravado and militancy and belief in what a union can achieve. Eventually you work out that the reality is somewhat different as the strength of the union is the resolve of it's members, so the quicker you accept that reality the better. Secondly, the manager in question is not going to be a manager for very long, and people who know his history remain mystified how he has remained in the middle echelons for so long. He is not party to the sort of information that could substantiate such comments. Thirdly, only 2 managers in Flight Ops are party to any information pertaining to company strategy, and they are not usually seen at SEP. Wanna know why the busses are rubbish? You may get an answer to that at SEP. Wanna know pension, pay or crewing information? Forget it. All you'll get is idle speculation. I have seen rumour and speculation flatly denied by management at SEP only to see it confirmed the following week when the big boys have got their heads together. The big boys don't go to SEP. A bit of cynicism will do you a lot of good in BA, but you must be cynical of the right people.

Originally Posted by Barry McDougal

Even if what you say is true,I doubt very much the members will strike if balloted. It will not be an issue balpa will war over with the company and even if they wanted to,will not have the backing of the majority of it's members.

You reckon? The only significant expansion we're likely to see for years taking by direct entry Captains? A challenge to the whole concept of seniority within BA? A direct competitor to Fortress Heathrow and the long haul crews? makes you wonder what they would strike over.

I believe BA have decided how they will crew the operation but do not go along with your assertion that balpa have agreed or indeed know. I think you will find that when the time comes they will decide what happens and have no need to negotiate with balpa. To negotiate would imply that balpa have some influence on key financial decisions the company makes

Aaaah, you must be management! BA always believe that they can make their decisions in isolation without the need to take the employees with them. They are invariably wrong as history shows.

[Angryfool]

Why not approach them personally, they may be happy to divulge the information.

They have been approached by several people directly, and asked to provide the information. No answers to the question though. Perhaps they're really busy

On the other hand we are expected to trust you that other airlines earn more than us simply on a hunch. Who lacks credibility here?

Carnage, as I have not posted my information, fair enough you do not have to trust me, based simply on what you believe to be a hunch. Perhaps if you read the Balpa forum you will find that there are other people who have already posted, with information on 1 EU airline which has a better package. It's really strange but no one has refuted this information

I've read the BALPA forum thread on this, so I know who the manager is and I'll have a pretty good guess at who you are.

I'm sure there are more than a few flight ops managers within BA, unfortunately it's not the same one otherwise I would have taken his comments with a pinch of salt; and whoever you may think I am is irrelevant, anyway I can assure you i'm not him
Unless you have more than one suspect, in which case

The big boys don't go to SEP

That's very strange, because i'm sure i've seen LCG there before


Carnage, you seem to disagree with most of my post, if not all. Let's wait for the work coverage ballot to be sent. This will be the litmus test on numerous issues and let us see your reaction then.

[Rainboe]

Could you explain why you knowingly gave this thread a false title?

[TopBunk]

Rainboe - exactly! As I mentioned earlier, if BA had their way, they would probably not use EU pilots but US pilots.

Starting routes to different EU cities all served from JFK or EWR, why would you choose EU pilots with multi base inefficiencies? Choosing JFK/EWR based pilots would be much more robust, and it is only a question of providing hotac in BRU/CDG/FRA vs NYC!

BALPA's task is to try to find a way of retaining these jobs for BA pilots operating rotations ex LHR.

[Angryfool]

Rainboe

I've corrected the title based on the premise that this is a 'rumour' and not 'fact'

[Rainboe]

I think with the whole thing simmering away (and definitely NOT on the back burner!), the title alone is like tossing a brick into the cooking pot. I think it creates more problems than it solves!
Rather than having a public row here (and you'll probably find half the respondents are simmers/airliners.net hobbyists pretending to be pilots, or just those hordes of bitter wannebees who like getting involved in this sort of thing), it may well be better to leave it to BALPA to negotiate quietly. It has happened before where the reps do not want public comment whilst an agreement is thrashed out. It takes faith, but it's a reasonable supposition that the reps know the dangers involved and the wants and concerns of the members. I have a strong suspicion that the effect of publicity like this could actually be adverse whilst negotiations are taking place. We fully support this work (of European companies) going to 'our' people, just as US companies can employ their own nationals on the same thing as in Maxjet, Eon etc. The reps don't need this sort of pressure- they know.

[Barry McDougal]

Carnage Matey!
If you think that the company will accomodate balpa on a major decision like this if they conclude it is financially prudent to use non-mainline pilots then you will be in for a bit of a suprise.

TopBunk
i'm with you on the US based pilots rather than EU

[filejw]

Top Bunk. There is nothing to prevent BA from having a pilot base in the US at JFK or anywhere else for that matter.Other international airlines do this already.Most pilots on this side of the pond believe if it's XYZ airlines painted on the A/C XYZ airlines pilots should fly the A/C.

[Carnage Matey!]

If you think that the company will accomodate balpa on a major decision like this if they conclude it is financially prudent to use non-mainline pilots then you will be in for a bit of a suprise.

Barry - it was financially prudent to slash NAPS, impose a career average final salary pension scheme (as supported by numerous staff groups) and ride roughshod over BALPAs objections. The savings BA could have made through that are a couple of orders of magnitude greater than any profits they could make from a US-EU operation, yet strangely enough they thought it important to keep the pilots onboard. I wonder why.

Incidentally are you actually a BA pilot Barry or just a spotter?

[747-436]

What is to stop BA operating this EU - US airline as a franchise, so someone else runs it and picks up the costs and BA put their colours on the aircraft?

[Hotel Mode]

Well I would have thought BA wants the money. Franchises have traditionaly been on marginal routes which mainline wouldnt serve. I suspect these routes will be anything but marginal.

I think the problems of a JFK base are understated. Either they need a US AOC to fly N reg a/c which means max 25% UK owned. Or they need to base crews flying EU reg aircraft which would require green cards all round or US pilots with EU licences. Either way its a tough call to sort that out for may.

[Barry McDougal]

carnage,
Without highlighting a separate issue the lump sum the company will put into the pensions is based on what they can afford to and are happy to. The agreement reached between balpa and the company was based on a lot of negotiations and research as well. It's a fine balance from both sides, the stakes high, if an agreement was not made/recommended by balpa then a high probability of a strike.
The issues we are talking about are very different. The stakes for pilots are not anywhere near the same as issues concerning pensions. This is not just about savings the company can make from non mainline pilots. It's far deeper

[Carnage Matey!]

I think you'll find the view on the line is that the stakes on this issue are almost as high as for the pensions issue. This is a wholesale outsourcing of BA flying to a different pilot body, a body which could just as easily be flying work out of LHR a week after it's set up. This isn't covered by the existing scope agreement but I've yet to meet anyone who didn't see this as the thin end of a very fat wedge that BA would try to use hammer down our terms, conditions and career opportunities. I know BALPA see it as such soon, and if BA management are thinking, like you, that this is a storm in a teacup and the pilots aren't really that bothered then they have an unpleasant surprise coming their way. They want this airline running by May, they want T5 open in March and they still have round 2 of the pilots pay negotiations in February 08. If they want a fight then there's plenty of support around for one.

[Barry McDougal]

Carnage,
Outsourcing of BA flying to a different body. Have you not ever looked at what's happened in the past,it tends to give us a good reality check of what perhaps may and/or will happen in the future. BA routes flown by BMED What happened there and guess what,I hear lots and lots of moans on line about that. That is it though,they are just moans.
I didn't say pilots were not bothered at all,they are. I'm saying BA pilots to strike over something that has already happened in the past (BA routes flown by non-mainline crew) will not happen.

[Angryfool]

Oh dear

Apparently according to Balpa we are not the best paid anymore
Yes, it's true, only the 3rd best in terms of cash but we're top in relation to overall package Honest it's true

Ah dear, the spin the spin. I believe 1997 was a significant year.

[Hand Solo]

I'd rather be 3rd overall in cash but have the best overall package. No point earning a load of cash if it goes straight into paying for a private pension or healthcare. Money isn't everything, otherwise people wouldn't be so hacked off with force draft. "Another weekend away from the family? Why thank you for this opportunity to earn more cash!"

[Angryfool]

I'd rather be 3rd overall in cash but have the best overall package. No point earning a load of cash if it goes straight into paying for a private pension or healthcare. Money isn't everything

Agree with you, money isn't the most important.

I'm very suprised to now know from my own union that the information they provided first hand, that we were the best paid, is actually very misleading, some people would actually say a lie. It could however be that their research was not as thorough as they had imagined and they were corrected by a few individuals who know people that work for other EU based airlines

I don't really care whether we are 1st or 5th. Job satisfaction, quality of life and feeling valued are top of my list. What I do care about is being lied to or mislead. It doesn't matter if it's from my company or union.

[Dreamshiner]

Is there anyone who can provide a link to the full story behind this thread with respect to the hiring of pilots, I've tried to gleen a little from this but I'd like to get the full picture. Did a google search too and read up on their plans but nothing with respect to the crewing.

[Barry McDougal]

Dreamshiner,
The crewing issue is not public yet as nothing to date has been confirmed. More than likely BA will commence flights to the US via the EU,plans are being put into place. I believe that once these bases have been announced/confirmed then crewing issues will be dealt with.

Some details;

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2283019.ece

[Dreamshiner]

Many thanks Barry,

Sorry for my ignorance, its been a little while since I've been around the Cranebank coffee room rumour mill.

So just to clear things up for non-BA types such as myself, the concise story is this, please anyone correct my misunderstandings, conjecture and blatant lies:

BA to fly from CDG, BRU and MAD maybe with a cheeky FCO thrown in too (why not).

Crewing - Well could get current staff to move abroad or employ new guys, options as I see it are:
Yanks - AOC and N reg issues, saying that how many do TCX and TUI employ every year as contractors, plenty of guys dual FAA/JAA qualified
Johnny Foreigner - Multitude of issues however BA already employ groundstaff in every airport mentioned, is it hard to add 14 pilots (guess) per base?
UK based, existing BA - 'hey fancy a move somewhere sunny?'
UK based, non BA but want to work for BA (kinda/possibly/definitely)

Will there be a recruitment drive? If so, whats likely? 700 hrs min on type required, therefore major UK charter operators loose a lot of staff which in turn is filled by recently qualified CTC/ab initio/SSTR guys
Will existing BA numbers be able to manage if they entice crew abroad?

I suggest many a BA captain/f.o. has a nice barn conversion outside Paris/Madrid/Barcelona/Milan/Provence and may jump at the chance to avoid the commute to LHR.

Current BA Pilots - Not happy if management opt for non BA mainline crew, why?

May ultimately cost mainline jobs via UK hubs if foreign services go well and non mainline crew employed for satellite cities.

Backdoor to employ others on less T&C's than present crew, therefore eroding things from the bottom up.

(don't know the setup was with BMED, but LoganAir fly with BA livery and get **** pay and don't see a whole lot of strike threats from mainline in support, or is it only juicy 7.5 hour Shanwick-Gander routes with a juicy layover that cause this uproar)

Union - Recognised unhappiness, in meetings with lots of cucumber sandwiches, much waggy fingers at management

Fleet - Will they need to acquire new 75/76's or with the current lot do?

Structure - Do something similar as with Go, except ditch the circles and keep the union jack or possible psuedo-BMED arrangement?