Monarch T & C's
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Arresta,
Sadly even if RS does read this I fear it will make no difference - Goodwill and morale mean nothing when you are driven by a huge profit related bonus and when you spend all winter on the ski slopes.. PB has to take action. I hear that many FO's are now seriously considering turning down commands as going right seat on 320 is not an option.. Those that have already gone across have warned their mates - the lifestyle is rubbish and with allowances they are better off where they are!! In order to fill all the vacant sim slots it appears that those in line for command from other fleets will first have to do a LH seat conversion and then have to serve 6 months on the bus in the LH seat.. what a nice xmas present that will be.. still, it beats a 25 quid M&S voucher...oops.
As to where some captains are considering, why do you mention a pay cut? Direct entry to EasyJet is looking a damn sight better than Monarch - stable roster, excellent T&C's; 5 on 4 off and rumours of better to come..
SB
Sadly even if RS does read this I fear it will make no difference - Goodwill and morale mean nothing when you are driven by a huge profit related bonus and when you spend all winter on the ski slopes.. PB has to take action. I hear that many FO's are now seriously considering turning down commands as going right seat on 320 is not an option.. Those that have already gone across have warned their mates - the lifestyle is rubbish and with allowances they are better off where they are!! In order to fill all the vacant sim slots it appears that those in line for command from other fleets will first have to do a LH seat conversion and then have to serve 6 months on the bus in the LH seat.. what a nice xmas present that will be.. still, it beats a 25 quid M&S voucher...oops.
As to where some captains are considering, why do you mention a pay cut? Direct entry to EasyJet is looking a damn sight better than Monarch - stable roster, excellent T&C's; 5 on 4 off and rumours of better to come..
SB
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Ryanair would provide a nicer lifestyle than Monarch 320/321, since they manage to avoid 18-30 rest periods and have more days off.
Jet2 would be better, since you wouldn't contantly be doing 900 hours.
Easy is now in a diferent league to Monarch - a much superior employer.
Jet2 would be better, since you wouldn't contantly be doing 900 hours.
Easy is now in a diferent league to Monarch - a much superior employer.
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e cam, its the rules that force 18-30 hrs, not Monarch. Ezy do 18-30 rest periods also but not as many as they have fewer night flights. You Moanarch boys have got a real hang up about 18-30hr rest periods, why dont you get the company council to suggest an approach to the CAA aka EZY 5 on 4 off etc. And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???.
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5 on 4 off sounds good untill you remember a D/O can end at midnight and statr at 6 am with easy and often does with those 4/5 sector days. You'll have more evenings at home when you can have a few beers with Monarch if you draw out a typical pattern and do the sums.
Also hours spent on D/Os is very similar, and in fact quite a bit better in Monarch if you allow that after a Mon D/O you generally can't fly the morning wave or fly the afternoon wave before one.
Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?
Also hours spent on D/Os is very similar, and in fact quite a bit better in Monarch if you allow that after a Mon D/O you generally can't fly the morning wave or fly the afternoon wave before one.
Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?
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Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?
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So that's a "no" then Whoops. No-one has ever left us for easy.
Why would you leave a co where TTC was sub 2 years even if on the 320 to go to another co that flies the same type to do longer in the RHS to get a command on the same type only later where you will do more boring flying with 4 or 5 sector days and zero chance of long-haul coz your airline has no long haul aircraft? No private health cover at all, sick pay of 37% of Monarch's and LoL of 65% of Monarch's and Leave Days at 76% (28 days). DC pension virtually the same if you contribute 8%. Their Staff Travel is better mind (wouldn't be hard) and they have sector pay and better "A" scale pay. Yes more "days off" but is this better quality time off, bearing in mind that how they've got to this is by exploring what doesn't work first i.e. knackering their pilots too much up till now. Hardly a model employer. That's not to say Monarch isn't currently doing the same thing mind.
I agree the fact we're even having this discussion is significant but surely it means that Monarch is going to have to improve Ts & Cs to avoid a serious experience shortage? Isn't it sort of inevitable?
Those leaving might want to pause for a few months. From the point of view of those staying, the more that leave the more the pressure on Ts and Cs increases, so bring it on.
Why would you leave a co where TTC was sub 2 years even if on the 320 to go to another co that flies the same type to do longer in the RHS to get a command on the same type only later where you will do more boring flying with 4 or 5 sector days and zero chance of long-haul coz your airline has no long haul aircraft? No private health cover at all, sick pay of 37% of Monarch's and LoL of 65% of Monarch's and Leave Days at 76% (28 days). DC pension virtually the same if you contribute 8%. Their Staff Travel is better mind (wouldn't be hard) and they have sector pay and better "A" scale pay. Yes more "days off" but is this better quality time off, bearing in mind that how they've got to this is by exploring what doesn't work first i.e. knackering their pilots too much up till now. Hardly a model employer. That's not to say Monarch isn't currently doing the same thing mind.
I agree the fact we're even having this discussion is significant but surely it means that Monarch is going to have to improve Ts & Cs to avoid a serious experience shortage? Isn't it sort of inevitable?
Those leaving might want to pause for a few months. From the point of view of those staying, the more that leave the more the pressure on Ts and Cs increases, so bring it on.
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So that's a "no" then Whoops. No-one has ever left us for easy.
Why would you leave a co........
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Mr Angry...
"And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???."
Joiners over the last 2 years are not on a nice pension as you put it. They are on a defined contribution scheme into which they have to contribute 8% in order to get 8% from the company. It's the worst pension I have found amongst major UK airlines - I believe it is even marginally worse than Easy.
Also Easy Captains start on 10k more than Monarch's now - so if you are going to be doing SH on the A320 series why not do it for 10k more with a more stable roster and less 18-30 rest periods? Sounds tempting to me....
Joiners over the last 2 years are not on a nice pension as you put it. They are on a defined contribution scheme into which they have to contribute 8% in order to get 8% from the company. It's the worst pension I have found amongst major UK airlines - I believe it is even marginally worse than Easy.
Also Easy Captains start on 10k more than Monarch's now - so if you are going to be doing SH on the A320 series why not do it for 10k more with a more stable roster and less 18-30 rest periods? Sounds tempting to me....
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Rushed Approach,
Those 2 boys in the North (niether are CTC - well 1 definitely isnt) are leaving us for EZ for 2 reasons. Money, they pay more and a base in Scotland.
Also as hard as it is to fathom, not everone wants long haul. In fact that prospect (with a free 330 rating) is the carrot keeping a lot of guys from jumping to the likes of EZ with its stable roster and larger salary, sector pay and pension. Thats the only reason im hanging about and have not applied. Dunno where you got your info that command will take longer over there though.... they're still desperately short of Captains and as soon as you are eligable the left hand seat beckons.......
Sphinx is absolutely correct. The pension for us newbies in the company is pretty crap. And i know a number of FOs not contributing to it with the intention of buggering off as soon as a better deal comes along (myself included - unless Monarch pick up their act).
I hope they do as I really enjoy flying with this company, the people are great to work with, but money (lifestyle) talks.... Hopefully more leave and the T&Cs improve greatly!
Those 2 boys in the North (niether are CTC - well 1 definitely isnt) are leaving us for EZ for 2 reasons. Money, they pay more and a base in Scotland.
Also as hard as it is to fathom, not everone wants long haul. In fact that prospect (with a free 330 rating) is the carrot keeping a lot of guys from jumping to the likes of EZ with its stable roster and larger salary, sector pay and pension. Thats the only reason im hanging about and have not applied. Dunno where you got your info that command will take longer over there though.... they're still desperately short of Captains and as soon as you are eligable the left hand seat beckons.......
Sphinx is absolutely correct. The pension for us newbies in the company is pretty crap. And i know a number of FOs not contributing to it with the intention of buggering off as soon as a better deal comes along (myself included - unless Monarch pick up their act).
I hope they do as I really enjoy flying with this company, the people are great to work with, but money (lifestyle) talks.... Hopefully more leave and the T&Cs improve greatly!
Last edited by Easy Ryder; 2nd Nov 2006 at 16:22.
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If these chaps are so money driven, why are they throwing 8% of their salary down the toilet by not contributing to the Monarch scheme?
At Easy they will get 7% from the company anyway plus another 2% and if they contribute 8% themselves that will be 17% total compared with Monarch's 16% total with 8% from them in each case.
Yes the Monarch scheme needs improving but to not contribute at all is just crazy. Your early contributions are the most important as they have the longest time to roll up before you retire.
I didn't mean the time to command was longer at easy, just that with it sub 2years in Monarch there isn't much in it by the time you've moved and done a year or so RHS.
At Easy they will get 7% from the company anyway plus another 2% and if they contribute 8% themselves that will be 17% total compared with Monarch's 16% total with 8% from them in each case.
Yes the Monarch scheme needs improving but to not contribute at all is just crazy. Your early contributions are the most important as they have the longest time to roll up before you retire.
I didn't mean the time to command was longer at easy, just that with it sub 2years in Monarch there isn't much in it by the time you've moved and done a year or so RHS.
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Longarm unless I'm mistaken or have an old schedule A, F/O increments only go upto year 11 (£50,559).
Then there is a big black solid line across the paper that means for those joining after 01 Nov 2004 tough luck thats your lot, increments stop here.
Then there is a big black solid line across the paper that means for those joining after 01 Nov 2004 tough luck thats your lot, increments stop here.
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Crossfeed you are absolutely correct. I'll blame it on being tired and having an inability to read properly. So the max as crossfeed says is 50 559. For those who joined before the November 2004 f/o's max is 66,681 (13 year SFO B scale).
You can see why its not as popular as it used to be.
You can see why its not as popular as it used to be.
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Max possible for a pre November 2004 pilot is actually even more, being £68681 (£66681 +[£66681 x 3%]) when the twenty year continuous service payment of 3% is added that post November 2004 pilot's have not got in their contract. Not exactly the same carrot now days.........£50559......
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Why the T&Cs are crap.
For any non Monarch pilots reading who don't know the story. The cost saving exercise started by recruiting 30 odd ctc cadets in early 2004 to serve a six month 'trial employment' period. You can understand why the existing pilots were upset with the dilution of experience of a relitively small company and the strain it put the trainers under. But you get 30 pilots for free for 6 motnhs!
After six months some of us were offered permanent contracts and some were not. The trouble was the market was still slack after 2001, airlines were not recruiting and the cadets had to take any opportunity they were being offered, even if this involved; a £32k starting salary (low hrs pilots) , capped salaries, one of the worst money purchase pensions I have seen and many other kicks in the arse.
We knew this was a rubbish deal and were concerned that we would be undermining the position of the company council and everything they had fought for over the years if we accepted it. Behind the scenes we had all agreed to stand firm and not accept the offer until we got the old one or it was significantly improved. What happened next I did not expect from Monarch.
We were split into three groups of 10, those they were 'definately offering jobs to', those they 'might' and those who can go and find employment else where thanks very much. The letter which accompanied the offer effectively said to those of us in the 'definite' 10, ' You have a week to sign this contract and if you don't accept it, your job will be offered to someone in the 'maybe pile'. So we were stuffed and had no choice. Divide and rule! The cheek of it was every one in the 'maybe' pile was offered a job anyway! They couldn't refuse the contract because 10 of us had just signed it
It set the precident and everyone joining after 1st Nov 2004 has to suffer the same deal. So RS has saved the company a lot of money he must be doing a good job!
But has he noticed how suddenly Monarch is no longer the place to stay and build a career for new joiners. How many people have left in the last 18 months for greener pastures? What is the cost of recruiting, type rating, line training, kitting out with uniform all these new guys that are being hired to replace the leavers? But that will be costed somewhere else so books still look good.
After six months some of us were offered permanent contracts and some were not. The trouble was the market was still slack after 2001, airlines were not recruiting and the cadets had to take any opportunity they were being offered, even if this involved; a £32k starting salary (low hrs pilots) , capped salaries, one of the worst money purchase pensions I have seen and many other kicks in the arse.
We knew this was a rubbish deal and were concerned that we would be undermining the position of the company council and everything they had fought for over the years if we accepted it. Behind the scenes we had all agreed to stand firm and not accept the offer until we got the old one or it was significantly improved. What happened next I did not expect from Monarch.
We were split into three groups of 10, those they were 'definately offering jobs to', those they 'might' and those who can go and find employment else where thanks very much. The letter which accompanied the offer effectively said to those of us in the 'definite' 10, ' You have a week to sign this contract and if you don't accept it, your job will be offered to someone in the 'maybe pile'. So we were stuffed and had no choice. Divide and rule! The cheek of it was every one in the 'maybe' pile was offered a job anyway! They couldn't refuse the contract because 10 of us had just signed it
It set the precident and everyone joining after 1st Nov 2004 has to suffer the same deal. So RS has saved the company a lot of money he must be doing a good job!
But has he noticed how suddenly Monarch is no longer the place to stay and build a career for new joiners. How many people have left in the last 18 months for greener pastures? What is the cost of recruiting, type rating, line training, kitting out with uniform all these new guys that are being hired to replace the leavers? But that will be costed somewhere else so books still look good.