FlyBe to acquire BA Connect (Crew thread - no spotters)
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As an outsider with no axe to grind, I’ve been watching this topic from the start. I have to say, the arrogant attitude of some Flybe people is disappointing. Should the BACON people be grateful for a job? Maybe, but NOT to the existing Flybe employees. The BACON people should be treated with some respect and sympathy. The fact that one company is in a better financial state than the other should not be a factor in sorting out seniority. If the threat to put the BACON people at the bottom of the list is carried out, I expect most of them will leave anyway.
Remember Flybe people, if you treat the BACON people like cr@p, you’ll be setting a precedent, which could be used against you, in any future takeover of Flybe.
Remember Flybe people, if you treat the BACON people like cr@p, you’ll be setting a precedent, which could be used against you, in any future takeover of Flybe.
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Marlowe
Marlowe's post on the previous page hits an important point. Those of you in Flybe who say "life's not that bad - OK we always finish on a late & start on an early - but we only have to tug our forelocks once a year......etc" are the type of pilot that causes BALPA to tear their hair out.
Would other highy qualified professionals put up with the kind of treatment you are enjoying? Can you imagine doctors, lawyers and so on taking that crap? You are a vital part of a safety critical industry and as such must operate to a standard most managers could never understand. The French & Spanish pilots know how to play this tune & benefit royaly as a result.
Dear old UK pilots go on accepting the "lucky to have a job" principle with predictable results. Read the above post from noiffsorbuts & see your opportunity.
Work WITH the BACON guys'n'gals to get a good deal for all of you instead of playing into the bonus laden hands of manageers who must split their sides laughing at the dissent & petty protectionist squabbling perpetrated here by those few with tunnel vision.
Would other highy qualified professionals put up with the kind of treatment you are enjoying? Can you imagine doctors, lawyers and so on taking that crap? You are a vital part of a safety critical industry and as such must operate to a standard most managers could never understand. The French & Spanish pilots know how to play this tune & benefit royaly as a result.
Dear old UK pilots go on accepting the "lucky to have a job" principle with predictable results. Read the above post from noiffsorbuts & see your opportunity.
Work WITH the BACON guys'n'gals to get a good deal for all of you instead of playing into the bonus laden hands of manageers who must split their sides laughing at the dissent & petty protectionist squabbling perpetrated here by those few with tunnel vision.
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The squabbling here continues to amaze me.Argueing about issues that haven't yet arisen.The deal may not happen,all will soon be revealed.Then when the facts are in the open,debate the issues,if of course there are any to debate!
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I think arrogance is being displayed in equal measure on both sides of the fence. I for one am finding it tiresome to say the least!
Those that stay, I look forward to working with you. Those that don't, regardez mon visage, is it bothered?
Those that stay, I look forward to working with you. Those that don't, regardez mon visage, is it bothered?
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marlowe
Not sure what a "neathandrel" is, so I'll assume that it is a term of endearment...
Well the best thing you can say about that statement is that it is incredibly naive. To quote from the flybe website...
... now please explain what there is to be "not happy" about. He simply saw a way of strengthening flybe's position, with significant financial guarantees, and took it.
Could that be something to do with the very large piles of money being offered by an increasingly desperate BA? Maybe? Huh?
Noiffsorbuts
No, that is how you would like it to be. Doesn't make it so.
Having been through the process, I can assure you that there is a big difference between how you think TUPE works, and how it actually works.
Good luck with that. I still fail to see where your bargaining power lies... as you said yourself, he can simply stand back and watch BACON fall to the floor, and then pick over the bones. Might be a more attractive scenario than your "demands".
Not sure what a "neathandrel" is, so I'll assume that it is a term of endearment...
So he obviously was not happy with the way things were going at FLYBE if he can effectivly rip up the business plan and start again.
The acquisition comes as Flybe announces its strongest ever summer trading period, resulting in an operating profit of £20.5 million* for the six months to 30th September 2006, which compares to an operating profit of £12.4 million* in the same period on 2005.
This summer’s result follows a solid performance in the financial year 2005/2006 when the business delivered operating profits, before exceptionals, of £4.8 million whilst pursuing a focused strategy of major route expansion to position the business for long term profit growth.
This summer’s result follows a solid performance in the financial year 2005/2006 when the business delivered operating profits, before exceptionals, of £4.8 million whilst pursuing a focused strategy of major route expansion to position the business for long term profit growth.
he is choosing to get involved when he could have just laughed as BACON fried
Noiffsorbuts
In simple terms he is hoping that the pressure of anticipation of a P45 from BA if this falls over will make us compliant and accept whatever he tells us.............Actualy I think he knows exactly the score, which is that sound compromises will have to be made to achieve acceptable middle ground all round.
Thats how it is.
Thats how it is.
Having been through the process, I can assure you that there is a big difference between how you think TUPE works, and how it actually works.
Good luck with that. I still fail to see where your bargaining power lies... as you said yourself, he can simply stand back and watch BACON fall to the floor, and then pick over the bones. Might be a more attractive scenario than your "demands".
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Remoak, in your last post you say how Jimbo will look after his own pilots well i hope that he has a more enlightened approach to managment than that or its come back Evans almost all is forgiven!!!! Jimbo will do whats best for the NEW company otherwise he is not the great leader of men that you all think he is.
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Remoak of course its all about the big bundle of cash from BA thats my point! Everybody has been banging on about how astute FLYBE managment are and how you have this fabulous business plan that makes money and you all know the great secret about regional flying WELL if all thats true why dont you just get on with it? You dont need BACON, just carry on doing what your doing and you can all live happily ever after. BUT the managment obviously dont see it that way they are prepared to have the cash from BA and change the strategy of the company just like that. When all this goes through the people this will effect the most is you guys at FLYBE because it wont be the cosy little flying club that you all want to cling onto, change happens, god knows the BACON workforce know that better than most, embrace it. Jimbo has the chance with BA money to make something great happen if everybody pulls in the same direction , instead of moaning how bad its going to be why not see the positive in all this.
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One or two might like to remind themselves that one day very soon we might just find ourselves on a flight deck together...................Of course that doesnt matter because this forum is anonymous................
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I bet the managers are reading all this and rubbing their hands. Divide and rule is alive and well on PPRUNE ! If they've got any sense they'd make anonymous posting of intolerant views compulsory. The real laugh is that no one spouting off here really knows, or has anything other than the standard one person one vote (if it comes to that) say in what is going to happen.
FLYBE have bought / been given (depends on your point of view) BACON. This deal is going to go through. London Airways needs it to to justify sacking every member of ground staff in the UK outside London which was one of the major goals in all this. Had BACON done alright I'm sure they'd have been encouraged to look for alternative ground handling anyway to allow this to happen. London Air can now raise their hands in the air and say "sorry guys not our fault BACON screwed your career up for you". If LA had wanted BACON to succeed DE would NEVER have been allowed anywhere near it ! Put your money on him turning up at LGW sometime soon. They want out of there as well !
Anyway to the point. What we should be discussing is what we can agree on and what we think we can get in return. There is a lot of pride from certain posters about how little they are prepared to work for. Fair enough, if you think that makes a company viable why take a salary at all I'm sure you'd do it for the love of the job. At the same time on the other side there is "you can't touch our T & Cs we've got TUPE !" We ain't got TUPE read DE's Q&A and I quote "TUPE does not apply since this is a share sale and the employer (BA Connect Ltd) does not change." and "I'm not flying a turboprop I'm a jet pilot look at the size of my flight bag". Get used to it guys there are going to be no 195 seats in the short term for x-BACON crew my understanding is there aren't even enough for the FLYBE guys who've already been promised them ! If we don't like it we know where the door is. Some of the really good F/Os who've waited forever for a command will get one. I'm sure they won't mind it's on a Q400.
No group works any harder than the other. I haven't had a weekend off since August and since this stupid RDO bidding came in haven't got one that I've asked for. I've done my 750 hours this year and I'm sure that's probably much the same as anyine in FLYBE. I'm sure some will claim that's not working hard enough and for FLYBE to succeed we must all do 900. CRAP even Ryanair don't believe that anymore. There's just no fat in the system if everyone is working to the max. The only winners there are flightline and titan ! I'm sure if we put our heads together we can get something of a scheduling agreement. Scheduling agreements if run properly shouldn't cost the company anything !
The one thing that is for sure is that nearly everyone will ultimately be disadvantaged in some way. Maybe not immediately but at some point over some issue. That's airlines and pilots for you.
For those who do decide to give it a go please don't start with the he (or she) is ex-something. BRAL/BRYMON happened for too long in BACX and didn't help anyone. It will be even worse this time unless we all accept from day one we are all FLYBE. (for better or worse)
Putting head back below wall now to avoid peltings.
P.S. Absolutely no way I'm signing a three year non-reducing bond though !
FLYBE have bought / been given (depends on your point of view) BACON. This deal is going to go through. London Airways needs it to to justify sacking every member of ground staff in the UK outside London which was one of the major goals in all this. Had BACON done alright I'm sure they'd have been encouraged to look for alternative ground handling anyway to allow this to happen. London Air can now raise their hands in the air and say "sorry guys not our fault BACON screwed your career up for you". If LA had wanted BACON to succeed DE would NEVER have been allowed anywhere near it ! Put your money on him turning up at LGW sometime soon. They want out of there as well !
Anyway to the point. What we should be discussing is what we can agree on and what we think we can get in return. There is a lot of pride from certain posters about how little they are prepared to work for. Fair enough, if you think that makes a company viable why take a salary at all I'm sure you'd do it for the love of the job. At the same time on the other side there is "you can't touch our T & Cs we've got TUPE !" We ain't got TUPE read DE's Q&A and I quote "TUPE does not apply since this is a share sale and the employer (BA Connect Ltd) does not change." and "I'm not flying a turboprop I'm a jet pilot look at the size of my flight bag". Get used to it guys there are going to be no 195 seats in the short term for x-BACON crew my understanding is there aren't even enough for the FLYBE guys who've already been promised them ! If we don't like it we know where the door is. Some of the really good F/Os who've waited forever for a command will get one. I'm sure they won't mind it's on a Q400.
No group works any harder than the other. I haven't had a weekend off since August and since this stupid RDO bidding came in haven't got one that I've asked for. I've done my 750 hours this year and I'm sure that's probably much the same as anyine in FLYBE. I'm sure some will claim that's not working hard enough and for FLYBE to succeed we must all do 900. CRAP even Ryanair don't believe that anymore. There's just no fat in the system if everyone is working to the max. The only winners there are flightline and titan ! I'm sure if we put our heads together we can get something of a scheduling agreement. Scheduling agreements if run properly shouldn't cost the company anything !
The one thing that is for sure is that nearly everyone will ultimately be disadvantaged in some way. Maybe not immediately but at some point over some issue. That's airlines and pilots for you.
For those who do decide to give it a go please don't start with the he (or she) is ex-something. BRAL/BRYMON happened for too long in BACX and didn't help anyone. It will be even worse this time unless we all accept from day one we are all FLYBE. (for better or worse)
Putting head back below wall now to avoid peltings.
P.S. Absolutely no way I'm signing a three year non-reducing bond though !
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marlowe
...except that if the shoe was on the other foot, you would be more than happy if your management did exactly the same, n'est pas?
Sure, and that will be to look after his existing crews. He needs them more than he needs the BACON crews.
They saw an opportunity and they took it. They aren't changing the strategy of the company at all, they are simply expanding that strategy more quickly than they had thought possible. The acquisition of BACON simply allows them to expand more quickly - it isn't a change of direction.
It hasn't been that for a few years now.
Yes well the problem with that is that there are plenty of positives for BACON crews (like continued employment) and virtually none for flybe pilots, who may have to endure being shunted down the seniority list and having their ambitions set back several years (amongst other things).
I'm very, very glad to be out of it. Good luck to the BACON guys, you are going to need it.
Remoak, in your last post you say how Jimbo will look after his own pilots well i hope that he has a more enlightened approach to managment than that
Jimbo will do whats best for the NEW company
they are prepared to have the cash from BA and change the strategy of the company just like that.
it wont be the cosy little flying club that you all want to cling onto
why not see the positive in all this.
I'm very, very glad to be out of it. Good luck to the BACON guys, you are going to need it.
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Gender Faculty Specialist
Rhythm M
Not just me but every other pilot at Flybe. You perceive us to be inferior to you because we work for what, in some instances, is an inferior airline. I'm not spouting the management line but simply offering my view on things. After dealing with the management in this company for the best part of a decade I can see what's coming...probably!
You're probably right about my roster and my base but also my current position is where a hell of a lot of you are going to end up, almost immediately. And don't forget that people do tend to exaggerate how bad it is whilst refusing to acknowledge the times they haven't been screwed around.
BA is our rostering chappy, a fornicating waste of space.
Xploy Ted Just to temper your argument. My cousin is a Doctor. He works over 100 hours a week. Go figure.
I apologise if you feel I personally insulted you, but I stand by that statement that many here seem too willing to spout the management line without looking at the benefits to be gained by both sides
You're probably right about my roster and my base but also my current position is where a hell of a lot of you are going to end up, almost immediately. And don't forget that people do tend to exaggerate how bad it is whilst refusing to acknowledge the times they haven't been screwed around.
BA is our rostering chappy, a fornicating waste of space.
Xploy Ted Just to temper your argument. My cousin is a Doctor. He works over 100 hours a week. Go figure.
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Cheeky Visual
Can't disagree with any of that, one of the more sensible and less emotive posts I 've seen. Well said buddy! No peltings coming your way, what you said is the fundamental common sense outlook. If we stop the whinging on about seniority etc, we'll go forwards together. One of the biggest problems is the basic pilot mentality, and the IQ and ability which is necessary to learn to do a job which, once learned, is actually fairly basic. It leaves far too much time to think about the grass across the fence and the perceived need to protect one's own position. As you said:
And you're bang on!
Just reassure me that no-one has heard of the Didsbury 5 coming across?
That's airlines and pilots for you.
Just reassure me that no-one has heard of the Didsbury 5 coming across?
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University paper.
Here here to both Cheeky Visual & Little Prince, more like that & you just may crack it.
A couple of years ago a university produced a study of pilot's industrial relations. New Zealand Uni I think, or was it Cardiff.......the conclusion was that pilots do not make natural collectivists which is a trait that corporate managers exploit to the full.
Many (most?) got themselves where they are by their own efforts & feel they are the only ones who can resolve problems (CRM?) and so would rather move elsewhere than join a concerted collective effort.
Interestingly, where there are no rungs on the career ladder left to climb (BA & other top employers) they do unionise and to great effect. A lesson there.......will it be learned?
A couple of years ago a university produced a study of pilot's industrial relations. New Zealand Uni I think, or was it Cardiff.......the conclusion was that pilots do not make natural collectivists which is a trait that corporate managers exploit to the full.
Many (most?) got themselves where they are by their own efforts & feel they are the only ones who can resolve problems (CRM?) and so would rather move elsewhere than join a concerted collective effort.
Interestingly, where there are no rungs on the career ladder left to climb (BA & other top employers) they do unionise and to great effect. A lesson there.......will it be learned?
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Steady!!! There is a severe danger of common sense starting to break out on this thread. Pilots work together for the common good, good lord, you will be suggesting that they use BACON terms to hike up flybe terms next.
Seriously, good luck to all if the deal goes through, particularly to the poor b@ggers on the CCs who have to find a common way forward for the years ahead
Seriously, good luck to all if the deal goes through, particularly to the poor b@ggers on the CCs who have to find a common way forward for the years ahead
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Can you make decisions - well, yes and no.....
I understand crunch time is approaching, I haven't had a " make your mind up" letter myself, but I'm told by a good mate the first ones have hit the doormat. Some problems with the address databases, but it looks as though we're not due for any pay rises for a long time on the RJ fleet.
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Had it been the other way around we ALL know that it would have been the Flybe guy's at the bottom of the seniority list and a cast system introduced in the same way it was when it was generally percieved that BRAL took over Brymon.
I don't work for either but I HAVE worked for both!- give me FlyBe anyday.
You rashers should think your selves lucky! This is the last chance for regional airlines in UK and Jim French will pull it off. However neglecting T&C and Pay will be a mistake - the whole workforce is what makes the new enlarged Airline - let's hope he remembers that.
I don't work for either but I HAVE worked for both!- give me FlyBe anyday.
You rashers should think your selves lucky! This is the last chance for regional airlines in UK and Jim French will pull it off. However neglecting T&C and Pay will be a mistake - the whole workforce is what makes the new enlarged Airline - let's hope he remembers that.
Last edited by Bacon Slicer; 7th Dec 2006 at 09:40. Reason: ......................................................................