just retired from the rat race
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Pilots in charge of multi million pound aircraft and several hundred lives deserve a far better deal
While the labour market attracts such individuals, and in the absence of screening at an early stage through more rigourous sponsorship selection, pilots will get no better deal than any other worker in the economy.
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And so say all of us!
Jet Provost mk3
Gnat
Victor Tanker K1a
Jet Provost mk4&5
Strikemaster
Bulldog
Lear Jet 35/36
Boeing 707
DC 9
DC 10
MD 11
MD 80
Boeing 747-300
Airbus 319/320/321
Airbus 330
Boeing 747-100/200/300
42 years.
Just retired at 60yrs. (kicking and screaming)
Great time, wonderfull people.
Never really appreciated how lucky I've been, until now.
Have fun up there.
Cheers.
Old Fart..
Gnat
Victor Tanker K1a
Jet Provost mk4&5
Strikemaster
Bulldog
Lear Jet 35/36
Boeing 707
DC 9
DC 10
MD 11
MD 80
Boeing 747-300
Airbus 319/320/321
Airbus 330
Boeing 747-100/200/300
42 years.
Just retired at 60yrs. (kicking and screaming)
Great time, wonderfull people.
Never really appreciated how lucky I've been, until now.
Have fun up there.
Cheers.
Old Fart..
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Just for a bit of fun, I thought I'd work out how many passengers my civil career amounted to.
15000 hrs
4.5 hrs average sector length.
300 pax per sector.
and the answer was..... 1,000,000. !!!!
Cheers.
15000 hrs
4.5 hrs average sector length.
300 pax per sector.
and the answer was..... 1,000,000. !!!!
Cheers.
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no more nite flights
I’ve been thinking about your post ever since it appeared and it saddens me deeply - for two reasons.
Firstly, you are absolutely correct about the undermining of pilots’ status, terms and conditions and pretty much everything else over 35 years. That’s depressing, to say the least.
But secondly, and more to the point, I’m saddened by your own position in all this. I detect someone limping away from their chosen career muttering “Thank God it’s over”. That’s depressing too. I’m your age, give or take a year or two. I cannot imagine giving up before 60, it’s too much fun.
I imagine that maybe you went through Hamble/Oxford in 1972/73. You were lucky to go on the Viscount rather than the Trident. Or maybe you were ex-Cambrian Viscount - if so, your career went meteoric compared with what might have been.
I went from Hamble onto the Trident and had a miserable time doing less than 300 hours a year (half in the P3 seat), mostly on Shuttle back-up and standby. That’s no way to treat a keen pilot in his 20’s. These were not, repeat not, golden days and, despite the superb pay and conditions, and like all cloned Hamsters I learnt to moan all day and every day.
The Trident was a fantastic aircraft, but flying it was ruined by ridiculous SOPs and more than a few captains you really would rather not be with. BA management at all levels was pathetic. I got out, and needless to say nobody in flight management ever knew my name or bothered to say goodbye.
Over the years you presumably progressed in the standard BA way (20+ years to command?) until eventually you ended up top of the bidline on the -400. I’m pleased that you managed to hang onto BA’s generous pay and conditions, though I imagine that watching them under 24x7 attack got a bit tedious. You are now retiring under the most favourable conditions imaginable and it would be logical to assume that you would be disappearing into the sunset with a big smile on your face. It is ironic that companies are being squeezed by huge costs such as your pension, which is is one reason why they are forcing the very same cuts to pay and conditions that you are complaining about.
So what has brought about your concern? Have you perhaps tried to get a retirement job and been appalled at what you’ve found? If so, I’m not surprised. On the face of it, it is indeed truly depressing.
But is it really? The most important “Term and Endearment” is nothing to do with terms and conditions but with the actual job itself - the company, the aircraft, the routes, the rosters and above all the people, both on the aircraft and in the office.
Since leaving BA my sole criterion has been with the job itself and I’ve had a brilliant time. Lots of types, lots of variety, hard work and challenging but always fun. The terms and conditions may have got worse and worse but you do adapt to the ever-moving goalposts.
My current job is with a loco and my pay and contract is worse than basic. But they do deliver everything that is promised, and in addition:
I get treated with a lot of respect
I get left to run things the way I want
I don’t feel at all undermined
If things go wrong they don’t assign blame
I fly fun aircraft that are well-maintained and don’t carry ADDs
I fly great routes, mostly 2 sector days
I hardly ever fly at night
I fly around 600 hours per year and rarely get tired
Our contractors work hard and will even sprint to get the job done efficiently
I get the leave and days off I want
Above all, I’m with the best bunch of people I’ve ever come across
What of the management? The big boss is hard-nosed and single-minded about the success and profitably of the company. I trust him to get it right, and to ensure our survival where others would fail. He could of course give us the commendable TFly levels of pay and conditions, but that would probably drive us to the wall. Which would I prefer?
Fleet management are fine. Good solid people who get along together (unusual in aviation) and offer support and guidance but no interference. Ideal.
Turnrounds? We often depart and arrive early so turnrounds are not a problem. Yes, they are busy but we go when we are completely ready and not before. Why do I want a long turnround?
Finally, there is of course the small matter of money. The way the EC is going we will all be under even more threat of being undercut. Being a pilot is not going to be a good way of earning money, whatever the employer. Fortunately there are plenty of other ways of making money (you have to think laterally) and our pilot jobs are perfectly compatible with them. My retirement is as secure (well, almost….) as if I had stayed in BA.
So if you are new to aviation, you don’t need to be depressed by this thread. It’s still a great job, despite all the things they are trying to shaft us with. I’m flying with First Officers who have crawled over broken glass to get the right seat of a loco and queued up to pay for their type ratings. Yet they think they are the luckiest people on this planet. It’s an appalling state of affairs, but are most people happy? YES! They will get their commands as soon as they are ready, and with a few P1 hours under their belts the very same market forces that have destroyed terms and conditions will allow them to move left-seat to left-seat almost anywhere they want. That's a lot more exciting than dead mens' shoes and seniority lists.
no more nite flights,
I sincerely wish you a long and happy retirement, and your concern is touching but it really isn’t so bad out here in the cold. Do come and join us. Experience has shown that most ex-BA pilots have the time of their lives when released to fly in the real world!
I’ve been thinking about your post ever since it appeared and it saddens me deeply - for two reasons.
Firstly, you are absolutely correct about the undermining of pilots’ status, terms and conditions and pretty much everything else over 35 years. That’s depressing, to say the least.
But secondly, and more to the point, I’m saddened by your own position in all this. I detect someone limping away from their chosen career muttering “Thank God it’s over”. That’s depressing too. I’m your age, give or take a year or two. I cannot imagine giving up before 60, it’s too much fun.
I imagine that maybe you went through Hamble/Oxford in 1972/73. You were lucky to go on the Viscount rather than the Trident. Or maybe you were ex-Cambrian Viscount - if so, your career went meteoric compared with what might have been.
I went from Hamble onto the Trident and had a miserable time doing less than 300 hours a year (half in the P3 seat), mostly on Shuttle back-up and standby. That’s no way to treat a keen pilot in his 20’s. These were not, repeat not, golden days and, despite the superb pay and conditions, and like all cloned Hamsters I learnt to moan all day and every day.
The Trident was a fantastic aircraft, but flying it was ruined by ridiculous SOPs and more than a few captains you really would rather not be with. BA management at all levels was pathetic. I got out, and needless to say nobody in flight management ever knew my name or bothered to say goodbye.
Over the years you presumably progressed in the standard BA way (20+ years to command?) until eventually you ended up top of the bidline on the -400. I’m pleased that you managed to hang onto BA’s generous pay and conditions, though I imagine that watching them under 24x7 attack got a bit tedious. You are now retiring under the most favourable conditions imaginable and it would be logical to assume that you would be disappearing into the sunset with a big smile on your face. It is ironic that companies are being squeezed by huge costs such as your pension, which is is one reason why they are forcing the very same cuts to pay and conditions that you are complaining about.
So what has brought about your concern? Have you perhaps tried to get a retirement job and been appalled at what you’ve found? If so, I’m not surprised. On the face of it, it is indeed truly depressing.
But is it really? The most important “Term and Endearment” is nothing to do with terms and conditions but with the actual job itself - the company, the aircraft, the routes, the rosters and above all the people, both on the aircraft and in the office.
Since leaving BA my sole criterion has been with the job itself and I’ve had a brilliant time. Lots of types, lots of variety, hard work and challenging but always fun. The terms and conditions may have got worse and worse but you do adapt to the ever-moving goalposts.
My current job is with a loco and my pay and contract is worse than basic. But they do deliver everything that is promised, and in addition:
I get treated with a lot of respect
I get left to run things the way I want
I don’t feel at all undermined
If things go wrong they don’t assign blame
I fly fun aircraft that are well-maintained and don’t carry ADDs
I fly great routes, mostly 2 sector days
I hardly ever fly at night
I fly around 600 hours per year and rarely get tired
Our contractors work hard and will even sprint to get the job done efficiently
I get the leave and days off I want
Above all, I’m with the best bunch of people I’ve ever come across
What of the management? The big boss is hard-nosed and single-minded about the success and profitably of the company. I trust him to get it right, and to ensure our survival where others would fail. He could of course give us the commendable TFly levels of pay and conditions, but that would probably drive us to the wall. Which would I prefer?
Fleet management are fine. Good solid people who get along together (unusual in aviation) and offer support and guidance but no interference. Ideal.
Turnrounds? We often depart and arrive early so turnrounds are not a problem. Yes, they are busy but we go when we are completely ready and not before. Why do I want a long turnround?
Finally, there is of course the small matter of money. The way the EC is going we will all be under even more threat of being undercut. Being a pilot is not going to be a good way of earning money, whatever the employer. Fortunately there are plenty of other ways of making money (you have to think laterally) and our pilot jobs are perfectly compatible with them. My retirement is as secure (well, almost….) as if I had stayed in BA.
So if you are new to aviation, you don’t need to be depressed by this thread. It’s still a great job, despite all the things they are trying to shaft us with. I’m flying with First Officers who have crawled over broken glass to get the right seat of a loco and queued up to pay for their type ratings. Yet they think they are the luckiest people on this planet. It’s an appalling state of affairs, but are most people happy? YES! They will get their commands as soon as they are ready, and with a few P1 hours under their belts the very same market forces that have destroyed terms and conditions will allow them to move left-seat to left-seat almost anywhere they want. That's a lot more exciting than dead mens' shoes and seniority lists.
no more nite flights,
I sincerely wish you a long and happy retirement, and your concern is touching but it really isn’t so bad out here in the cold. Do come and join us. Experience has shown that most ex-BA pilots have the time of their lives when released to fly in the real world!
Last edited by bigbusdriver06; 29th Aug 2006 at 17:01. Reason: minor amendments
Está servira para distraerle.
.. Doffing scrambled egg peaked cap and donning baseball cap..
A reading of the pages of Pprune would seem to indicate that there are a very large number of very inexperienced pilots flying around the skies in a sort of job culture that encourages them to think in terms of instant jet entry.
It is also apparent that this culture has permeated the pilotage side of the aviation industry to an extent that many of these newbie pilots have overweening attitudes as to their own capabilities and brilliance simply because either they fly jets or they intend only to fly jets.
Flying in face of their own good fortune as they do; they overloook the hard road that many before them have trodden with the concurrent experience gleaned by learning from the mistakes of others, profiting from the lessons of their own, or in the extrication from situations in which they would rather not have found themselves.
It therefore seems possible that the role of a civil jet pilot today is rapidly changing to reflect his job as a low speed sophisticated systems manager. In fact, the word pilot and its meaning as.. 'one who directs the course'.. is becoming redundant and should perhaps be replaced with the title of 'Airborne Computer Manager' or ACM for short.
With this in mind; it is perhaps not at all a bad idea to have a pilot at the helm who has as his background the sort of experience which has contributed so much to the relatively excellent world wide aviation safety statistics. An old pilot who, by virtue of years of varied flying, is by now, one hopes, possessed of a sixth sense which will allow him to determine when the computers are wrong and when common sense should prevail.
It impacts on all industries when those at the end of their careers and on handsome pensions are perceived to detract from the opportunities of the young Turks on the way up but, speaking from under the baseball cap; I know whom I'd rather have sitting in the left when the Gods are angry.
Although no particular fan of the platinum bar brigade; it is fizzing to read such a positive post from one who obviously enjoys the work so much that such is probably its own reward.
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most ex-BA pilots have the time of their lives when released to fly in the real world!
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Yarpy,
That's a very interesting concept, using take-it-or-leave staff to sort out management idiocies - I like it!
Could you please expand on this? Do you have any relevant first-hand experience that you could share with us?
That's a very interesting concept, using take-it-or-leave staff to sort out management idiocies - I like it!
Could you please expand on this? Do you have any relevant first-hand experience that you could share with us?
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Understand your job market before posting comments on what you clearly do not understand!
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Lucifer,
I'm at the harshest unprotected edge of the captains' UK job market and I am simply reporting what I am seeing.
Where are you?
Re "too many inexperienced fATPL's", I fly with them every day. Inexperienced, yes. Also very capable and highly motivated. And they don't whinge. Were you ever inexperienced?
I'm at the harshest unprotected edge of the captains' UK job market and I am simply reporting what I am seeing.
Where are you?
Re "too many inexperienced fATPL's", I fly with them every day. Inexperienced, yes. Also very capable and highly motivated. And they don't whinge. Were you ever inexperienced?
Last edited by 757operator; 1st Sep 2006 at 09:37. Reason: typo
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Agree 100pc+. I have been lucky enough to have had great contact with many pilots in the left hand seat who have made flying fun for me from teenage till late ages!!
Very much enjoy your retirement, and for what its worth you have my thanks
JC
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Correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but if you are ex-BA and already drawing a pension from NAPS, then that pension is not as risk. It's the guys who haven't yet retired whose pension is dodgy.
Thread Starter
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retired from rat race
HI all,TKS for your good wishes..much appreciated.Not ex BA,BUT cambrian/AIC/IEA/HEAVYLIFT/KLM/SCANDIC/ATLANTA/GO(the BEST), and easy..........
(forgot U.N. India)
I think the numerous employers reflect the stability of the Pilot market over the years,nearly all went bust!.
Several wivesand near financial ruin has surprisingly made me more affluent....its just me and the dog...........WE both miss flying but I can always rent a turbo c150and pretend ITS A B747!!....VERY SAD.
Im off qto the golf club now for 18 holes,but still cant resist that painful lookat my home for 35yrs every time I HEAR THAT SOUND.............you will know what I mean..
Good wishes to all my fellow aviators..I will sadly miss all the Characters in aviation, and there were quite a few....
Put my checklist away,taken off the ol uniform and stored my logs/licence for posterity..........
(forgot U.N. India)
I think the numerous employers reflect the stability of the Pilot market over the years,nearly all went bust!.
Several wivesand near financial ruin has surprisingly made me more affluent....its just me and the dog...........WE both miss flying but I can always rent a turbo c150and pretend ITS A B747!!....VERY SAD.
Im off qto the golf club now for 18 holes,but still cant resist that painful lookat my home for 35yrs every time I HEAR THAT SOUND.............you will know what I mean..
Good wishes to all my fellow aviators..I will sadly miss all the Characters in aviation, and there were quite a few....
Put my checklist away,taken off the ol uniform and stored my logs/licence for posterity..........
