'Will work for free'
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[QUOTESpoke with someone a couple of months back,.....]they would take him for summer contract on airbus but could not afford to pay him.[/QUOTE]
Someone is thus a complete idiot. Do you think for one moment that if said company can afford to run a Airbus, they can't afford to pay a pilots salary (which is rather small per month compared to a lease cost)?
Or put it another way. Does this idiot think that if they could't find someone to fly for free that they would ground the aeroplane rather than pay someone to fly it?
The inability of people to see the big picture is mind-boggling
Someone is thus a complete idiot. Do you think for one moment that if said company can afford to run a Airbus, they can't afford to pay a pilots salary (which is rather small per month compared to a lease cost)?
Or put it another way. Does this idiot think that if they could't find someone to fly for free that they would ground the aeroplane rather than pay someone to fly it?
The inability of people to see the big picture is mind-boggling
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I wouldn't employ anyone who advertised their services "for free" on the grounds that he or she had insufficient grasp of the English language!
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Whats always intrigued me about the type rating/pay to fly argument is how people try to draw a line in the sand and say it is so wrong. Yet it is industry accepted that you can drop paras or gliders for free or darn as well near enough to it. You can earn £8 an hour instructing PPLers when the school is charging £140/hr for a clapped out C152 or tow banners for not much more. There are even twin "jobs" where you get no pay doing traffic reports etc.
I am waiting to be enlightened as to the startling difference between these and the aforementioned. It seems to me a case of the have nots being none to pleased that others are jumping ahead of them on the gravy train and not going through the same school of hard knocks that they did. Well I am afraid that is life and there will always be someone with minimum hours who is in the right place at the right time that will get a job ahead of you or who doesn't see a need to live in a caravan in North Wales for a year losing the will to live.
I am waiting to be enlightened as to the startling difference between these and the aforementioned. It seems to me a case of the have nots being none to pleased that others are jumping ahead of them on the gravy train and not going through the same school of hard knocks that they did. Well I am afraid that is life and there will always be someone with minimum hours who is in the right place at the right time that will get a job ahead of you or who doesn't see a need to live in a caravan in North Wales for a year losing the will to live.
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Unfortunately, as a Pilot starting out in this industry, it is all too easy to allow one's love of flying to become entangled with the necessity of earning a wage, thus demeaning the profession.
The rot started a few years ago with individuals, not the airlines paying for type ratings.
This Pilot, naively, has merely taken this cost cutting to a new level.
The rot started a few years ago with individuals, not the airlines paying for type ratings.
This Pilot, naively, has merely taken this cost cutting to a new level.
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It is not a way to do business
I dont have to read comments from my fellow collegues to know you will get a roasting for your comments. However.............
I can understand that you want a break.
You will just make it harder for yourself in the long run if you take this line of approach. If i can offer some advise.
When most of us start spending and learning to fly aircraft we are not privy to the difficulty in obtaining that first job. Its a sad fact but many never become professional pilots. However persistance DOES pay most I dont know any person that hasnt made it that hasnt stuck it out. It has to consume your life. If you are this desperate this is what you must do.
Pilots spend lot of their time a resources to gain employment. I have seen pilots paying for work it took me six years to become a professional. I blame my maturity at a young age and the fact pilots were paying to work as a pilot.In the end I had to travel 3000km and base myself somewhere no one wanted to be.
Be consistent with you follow ups with employers accept their critisisms that come your way but dont let it deter you. most of all workout your weaknesses if any when seking employment opportunities.
It is as people say you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Once you have the experience it comes easier. If you know people in the industry ask them for some help. It might help if you work as a aircraft washer, a refueller, a baggage handler. I dont know your position. Pilots dont start making money until well into their career until them we are poor broke drive the cheapest car work in the worst conditions so when you do become a Commander of a jet remember what it took to get u their and why you should give away your labour.
I hope this helps you I hope you become one of us the right way.
And then maybe you can offer someone advise or give them a leg up in aviation.
I can understand that you want a break.
You will just make it harder for yourself in the long run if you take this line of approach. If i can offer some advise.
When most of us start spending and learning to fly aircraft we are not privy to the difficulty in obtaining that first job. Its a sad fact but many never become professional pilots. However persistance DOES pay most I dont know any person that hasnt made it that hasnt stuck it out. It has to consume your life. If you are this desperate this is what you must do.
Pilots spend lot of their time a resources to gain employment. I have seen pilots paying for work it took me six years to become a professional. I blame my maturity at a young age and the fact pilots were paying to work as a pilot.In the end I had to travel 3000km and base myself somewhere no one wanted to be.
Be consistent with you follow ups with employers accept their critisisms that come your way but dont let it deter you. most of all workout your weaknesses if any when seking employment opportunities.
It is as people say you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Once you have the experience it comes easier. If you know people in the industry ask them for some help. It might help if you work as a aircraft washer, a refueller, a baggage handler. I dont know your position. Pilots dont start making money until well into their career until them we are poor broke drive the cheapest car work in the worst conditions so when you do become a Commander of a jet remember what it took to get u their and why you should give away your labour.
I hope this helps you I hope you become one of us the right way.
And then maybe you can offer someone advise or give them a leg up in aviation.
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Out of curiosity I have two questions on this matter:
1) "How Long" will this person work "for free", a day, a week, a year, a life time?
2) Will they: paint my house; service my car; collect my dry cleaning; cook my meals; recycle my rubbish; fill in my tax return...or do they only fly for free?
Like I said, just curious, I could do with a new slave, the last one slipped his chains and ran off...
Harry (willing to exploit the gullible and desperate like a good capitalist)
1) "How Long" will this person work "for free", a day, a week, a year, a life time?
2) Will they: paint my house; service my car; collect my dry cleaning; cook my meals; recycle my rubbish; fill in my tax return...or do they only fly for free?
Like I said, just curious, I could do with a new slave, the last one slipped his chains and ran off...
Harry (willing to exploit the gullible and desperate like a good capitalist)
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I wonder how the people who offer to "work for free" today will feel when they are replaced tomorrow by other idiots offering to "pay for work experience."
I do sympathise with people looking for their first job but you are undermining everyone elses position today and your own in the future.
Airlines today are generally run by beancounters - people who dont know one end of an aeroplane from another. We should be standing up to them, not encouraging them.
I do sympathise with people looking for their first job but you are undermining everyone elses position today and your own in the future.
Airlines today are generally run by beancounters - people who dont know one end of an aeroplane from another. We should be standing up to them, not encouraging them.
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Originally Posted by BANANASBANANAS
I wonder how the people who offer to "work for free" today will feel when they are replaced tomorrow by other idiots offering to "pay for work experience."
I do sympathise with people looking for their first job but you are undermining everyone elses position today and your own in the future.
Airlines today are generally run by beancounters - people who dont know one end of an aeroplane from another. We should be standing up to them, not encouraging them.
I do sympathise with people looking for their first job but you are undermining everyone elses position today and your own in the future.
Airlines today are generally run by beancounters - people who dont know one end of an aeroplane from another. We should be standing up to them, not encouraging them.
Unfortunately the bean counters of the world are making the global Avaition world cheaper subsidised by our wages.
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Why would you be more employable ?
If one airline is farming out the right hand seat to individuals who will contract to no pay, then it puts the other companies at a commercial disadvantage. In turn they will also do the same.
If you don't think so just look at the situation that exists in most if not all companies that employ low time pilots now. The terms and conditions have gone through the floor for new joiners ( short term and long term) in the last 5 years. Unfortunetaly the surplus of newly qualified professional licence holders has put downward pressure on labour costs at that end of the market and that effects not only new licence holders but also new joiners from the military and other "experienced" sources.
The problem with working for no renumeration is that once you get bored with that concept and begin to feel your new found "experience" has a value, you will find yourself competing with the new wave of others who like you see a personal advantage in working for nothing. Why will a company decide you are worthy of their increased costs, ( low cost remember), when others are equally willing to do the same job for free ?
I have worked for my own employer for over 20 years and in that time seen a steady improvment in terms and conditions. However over the last few years the company has had to compete in this brave new world of the "lo-cost" model. This includes new ( lower and restrictive) salary structures for new pilots (all new pilots!), the abolition of final salary pension schemes ( something not unique to airlines of course), the abolition of permanant health insurance for new joiners, reductions in travel benefits, and the list goes on. In other companies I see the requirements to pay for your training, pay for your uniform, pay for your meals and drinks, pay for your car parking etc. all of these changes reduce the employers cost base, and sets the standard for others to follow or themselves risk operating at a commercial disadvantage.
I can tell you that the view from the top of the tree is still largely as good as it ever was and therein probably lies the attraction. However the rot is visibly spreading from the ground up and I hope I have floated off into retirement before it gets up to the top branches. I have a son who is currently setting out to enter commercial aviation, and it is his future that I worry desperately about. The career he is hoping to embark on is far removed from that he has lived and benefited from for the last 20 years.
Who will pay his sons or daughters costs when the job itself is little more than a vanity exercise for other youngsters ?
I can understand the frustration that drives this sort of attitude and ambition (albeit myopic), but it is high time the standards were adjusted for airline entry. In my opinion the hours requirement is set too low and this serves to dilute the experience base. It is unlikely ( at this point in time ) that the regulator will do anything to change the status quo, although they do have concerns about low experience Captains and First officers flying together. It is more likely the insurance industry (another major cost consideration) will drive the change, eventually and unfortunetaly !
If one airline is farming out the right hand seat to individuals who will contract to no pay, then it puts the other companies at a commercial disadvantage. In turn they will also do the same.
If you don't think so just look at the situation that exists in most if not all companies that employ low time pilots now. The terms and conditions have gone through the floor for new joiners ( short term and long term) in the last 5 years. Unfortunetaly the surplus of newly qualified professional licence holders has put downward pressure on labour costs at that end of the market and that effects not only new licence holders but also new joiners from the military and other "experienced" sources.
The problem with working for no renumeration is that once you get bored with that concept and begin to feel your new found "experience" has a value, you will find yourself competing with the new wave of others who like you see a personal advantage in working for nothing. Why will a company decide you are worthy of their increased costs, ( low cost remember), when others are equally willing to do the same job for free ?
I have worked for my own employer for over 20 years and in that time seen a steady improvment in terms and conditions. However over the last few years the company has had to compete in this brave new world of the "lo-cost" model. This includes new ( lower and restrictive) salary structures for new pilots (all new pilots!), the abolition of final salary pension schemes ( something not unique to airlines of course), the abolition of permanant health insurance for new joiners, reductions in travel benefits, and the list goes on. In other companies I see the requirements to pay for your training, pay for your uniform, pay for your meals and drinks, pay for your car parking etc. all of these changes reduce the employers cost base, and sets the standard for others to follow or themselves risk operating at a commercial disadvantage.
I can tell you that the view from the top of the tree is still largely as good as it ever was and therein probably lies the attraction. However the rot is visibly spreading from the ground up and I hope I have floated off into retirement before it gets up to the top branches. I have a son who is currently setting out to enter commercial aviation, and it is his future that I worry desperately about. The career he is hoping to embark on is far removed from that he has lived and benefited from for the last 20 years.
Who will pay his sons or daughters costs when the job itself is little more than a vanity exercise for other youngsters ?
I can understand the frustration that drives this sort of attitude and ambition (albeit myopic), but it is high time the standards were adjusted for airline entry. In my opinion the hours requirement is set too low and this serves to dilute the experience base. It is unlikely ( at this point in time ) that the regulator will do anything to change the status quo, although they do have concerns about low experience Captains and First officers flying together. It is more likely the insurance industry (another major cost consideration) will drive the change, eventually and unfortunetaly !
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As a former Engineer (Non Airline), I find it an absolute insult to proffesional personnel to have to pay for any form of Training!
It is not just the Airline Industry that has to pay large amounts of money to train their workforce. It is the same in most Industries.....(most industries getting on with it, planning it into their yealry budget!)
For example, in my former life, I was tasked to source training for several of my Engineers to train on a new piece of equipment, that entailed them going to Germany for several weeks, at a cost of well over £30k per man.....This was not even blinked at as the company needed them trained to continue production (ie, Airline can't operate without Pilots!).
In my opinion, and this is just my personal point of view, the Airlines can afford to train new pilots, but they don't need to as long as there are people willing to pay for themselves! And before anyone rattles on about how difficult it is to get that first job, I know!
If we all made a stand against this form of prostitution, Airlines would be forced to again employ people and train them without a cost to the pilot (whom in many cases is allready heavily in debt!).
Its not rocket science, the Airlines have never had it so good! Little wonder BMI etc....are about to strike! Wake up and smell the coffee people, REVOLT!
---------------
endofeng
It is not just the Airline Industry that has to pay large amounts of money to train their workforce. It is the same in most Industries.....(most industries getting on with it, planning it into their yealry budget!)
For example, in my former life, I was tasked to source training for several of my Engineers to train on a new piece of equipment, that entailed them going to Germany for several weeks, at a cost of well over £30k per man.....This was not even blinked at as the company needed them trained to continue production (ie, Airline can't operate without Pilots!).
In my opinion, and this is just my personal point of view, the Airlines can afford to train new pilots, but they don't need to as long as there are people willing to pay for themselves! And before anyone rattles on about how difficult it is to get that first job, I know!
If we all made a stand against this form of prostitution, Airlines would be forced to again employ people and train them without a cost to the pilot (whom in many cases is allready heavily in debt!).
Its not rocket science, the Airlines have never had it so good! Little wonder BMI etc....are about to strike! Wake up and smell the coffee people, REVOLT!
---------------
endofeng
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Spot on Endofeng! (nice exhausts by the way!)
I don't care what anyone says about it being worthwhile taking a short term hit for a long term gain. As far as I am concerned, I have no respect for any company who would ask a pilot to work for free or pay for training. I have even less respect for a pilot who is prepared let themselves and the rest of us down so badly. We are professionals! (Or rather, some of us are)
I don't care what anyone says about it being worthwhile taking a short term hit for a long term gain. As far as I am concerned, I have no respect for any company who would ask a pilot to work for free or pay for training. I have even less respect for a pilot who is prepared let themselves and the rest of us down so badly. We are professionals! (Or rather, some of us are)
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So you now want all of the wannabees to revolt and this will change T&C's then huh? Well I don't think so somehow.
Lets go back a few years....Now when BA and Aer Lingus (amongst others) canned their sponsorship schemes I don't seem to recall all the existing pilots being up in arms and threatening to walk out at the very cheek of management taking away something that many of them had the benefit of. And when airlines started to charge for type ratings did the pilots go out in strike saying come on fairs fair we didn't pay for ours? Then when outfits like Mytravel started taking on guys for the summer who had paid for a type rating and worked for free did the long serving pilots say hey what is going on here this ain't right? The answer as we all know is that BALPA/IALPA and the pilots did nought other than say I am alright jack.
So quite why existing pilots expect some poor wannabee who is in hock to up to £100k to suddenly get on their high horse and refuse an opportunity is beyond me. Maybe if the existing pilot workforce did more to protect their T&C's and stuck together rather than appearing to be so militant but doing nought then all of us would have a much rosier future to look forward to in aviation.
Lets go back a few years....Now when BA and Aer Lingus (amongst others) canned their sponsorship schemes I don't seem to recall all the existing pilots being up in arms and threatening to walk out at the very cheek of management taking away something that many of them had the benefit of. And when airlines started to charge for type ratings did the pilots go out in strike saying come on fairs fair we didn't pay for ours? Then when outfits like Mytravel started taking on guys for the summer who had paid for a type rating and worked for free did the long serving pilots say hey what is going on here this ain't right? The answer as we all know is that BALPA/IALPA and the pilots did nought other than say I am alright jack.
So quite why existing pilots expect some poor wannabee who is in hock to up to £100k to suddenly get on their high horse and refuse an opportunity is beyond me. Maybe if the existing pilot workforce did more to protect their T&C's and stuck together rather than appearing to be so militant but doing nought then all of us would have a much rosier future to look forward to in aviation.
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If people are prepared to work for nothing and pay for their own type rating courses there will obviously be a detrimental effect on Ts&Cs. Therefore, I am most certainly on my high horse telling anyone that will listen that they should turn down any such opportunity. What annoys me most is the possibility that the better candidates will lose out to less talented individuals.
What is this industry coming to? I am embarrassed!
What is this industry coming to? I am embarrassed!
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There are always 2 sides to every situation and I am not without sympathy for an in debt, newly qualified frozen ATPL pilot who can't get onto the bottom rung of the aviation ladder. Given the choice of either working for free to gain experience or doing the honourable thing but remaining unemployed it is not difficult to see how unscrupulous beancounters seek to take advantage of the newly qualified pilots situation. We need to find a third option.
I am not sure what that third option is but I do feel that, as a pilot group, we need to be a little more pro active. We can't just slate newbies for taking the only option that they feel they have and expect the problem to fix itself. Having reached my mid 40s without ever having been a member of a union I am now of the opinion that it is absolutely essential to protect against the relentless tide of beancounting that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
A few years ago, one of my former employers (UK Charter) made 30 pilots redundant just before christmas. The financial director responsible for the redundancies got a very nice christmas bonus. Next year the airline were short of crews, suffered major roster disruption and missed out on lucrative sub charters. This sort of lunacy has to stop.
I am not sure what that third option is but I do feel that, as a pilot group, we need to be a little more pro active. We can't just slate newbies for taking the only option that they feel they have and expect the problem to fix itself. Having reached my mid 40s without ever having been a member of a union I am now of the opinion that it is absolutely essential to protect against the relentless tide of beancounting that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
A few years ago, one of my former employers (UK Charter) made 30 pilots redundant just before christmas. The financial director responsible for the redundancies got a very nice christmas bonus. Next year the airline were short of crews, suffered major roster disruption and missed out on lucrative sub charters. This sort of lunacy has to stop.
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Like all good capitalists I know my value, if you do not pay me the required amount of beans I do not work for you. I didn't pay for my training, nor did I pay for any ratings, if you want me to fly your planes then you pay me the correct amount of beans.
When I was unemployed I went and got a job that paid the requisite amount of beans, I did not care that it was not flying an aeroplane. The ONLY reason I fly for a living is because it gets me more beans than any other form of work at this time. Should this change I will change job, simple as that.
You can always find someone cheaper but not necessarily better. It is the bean counters choice, you can either be Chelsea or Wycombe Wanderers, who do you think pays its players more beans?
Harry (show me the beans, show me the beans..)
When I was unemployed I went and got a job that paid the requisite amount of beans, I did not care that it was not flying an aeroplane. The ONLY reason I fly for a living is because it gets me more beans than any other form of work at this time. Should this change I will change job, simple as that.
You can always find someone cheaper but not necessarily better. It is the bean counters choice, you can either be Chelsea or Wycombe Wanderers, who do you think pays its players more beans?
Harry (show me the beans, show me the beans..)
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fly a plane for free, or "I pay you to fly your commercial plane with passengers "(eaglejet by exemple)...
is that legal for a commercial flight officer?please give me the name of the companies who "hire" pilots for free, or make them pay.
is that legal for a commercial flight officer?please give me the name of the companies who "hire" pilots for free, or make them pay.