The Irish invite US pilots to work in Europe...

[MOR]

corklad

I think you'll find I know a little more about running a business than you do, you seem to have no idea of economics!

I doubt that, I currently run two very profitable businesses.

You seem quite anti-american and anti-irish having observed your comments and remarks.

There is nothing in any of my comments that is anti-American or Anti-Irish.

I note that your hostility is vented at the FAA

I haven't expressed any hostility towards the FAA.

Do you also not like Canadians or Aussies coming in or is it just FAA tickect holders???

I don't care who comes in, as long as there is reciprocity and as long as locals are used first.

I dont belive that anyone with the required experiance is being passed up for a forgeiner.

Page 2, post two. And my friend.

there are no real cadetships anymore and that companies dont want to pay for training, they are only taking the guys who are experienced and ready to go.

Yeah, apart from Easyjet... and BA... and flybe... the list goes on...

Now for the NYC clown...

There seems to be an exiled EU pilot living and flying in the South Pacific who can’t seem to grasp the concept of the old supply and demand concept… in other words if there are no supplies around the corner, you need to look elsewhere.

Ah yes but there are supplies around the corner, as you have already been told by myself and others. And I see that you still can't grasp what this is all about, but then you wouldn't, would you? You simply cannot bring yourself to address the two main points of the argument. Because, of course, you have no answer.

He is under the delusion that the more you pay for your training the more entitled you are to a job in Europe.

... except, of course, that I never said anything of the sort, and that has never been my argument. But as you can't respond to the argument, you just invent a new one. Obfuscation is your only weapon, which comes as no surprise at all. I think it is pretty clear who the real moron is here.

BTW I think JAA schools in the US are an excellent idea.

[corklad]

There is nothing in any of my comments that is anti-American or Anti-Irish.

Yeah right, Im not sure anyone who has read your posts would agree with that one.

I don't care who comes in, as long as there is reciprocity and as long as locals are used first.

there are examples in many countries of reciprocity if you care to look hard enough.

Yeah, apart from Easyjet... and BA... and flybe...

I said there were very few companies offering cadetships, not that they were non-existant. However, even you would have to agree they are VERY VERY difficult to get.

I think for the sake of maturity, because we are not going to agree about this topic, that we should all just agree to dis-agree and move on to the next topic.

[MOR]

Yeah right, Im not sure anyone who has read your posts would agree with that one.

There either is or there isn't. Which is it?

there are examples in many countries of reciprocity if you care to look hard enough.

Not between the US and Ireland. Or the US and anybody else, for that matter. It doesn't matter how hard you look.

I think for the sake of maturity, because we are not going to agree about this topic, that we should all just agree to dis-agree and move on to the next topic.

For the sake of maturity? Maturity is somehow threatened by this discussion? Well, whatever. If you don't reply, I shall assume you have moved on...

[corklad]

Jez MOR you love to argue dont you

Ok, so the thrust of your argument is that you dont want qualified current US crews flying irish registered aircraft because they could POSSIBLE be taking jobs from people in other european countries. Is that correct? Isnt that assuming that said possible EU candidates will pass an interview..sim check..etc etc. As you mentioned the BAe 146 isnt exactly an aircraft that everyone is typed and current on...everybody is getting 737 or 320 types. So could you at least admit it may be hard to find people who are curent, speak english fluently and are ready to go ASAP???

Second, honestly know, you dont think you have anything against americans??? If I were a neutral observer I wouldnt think so...but i could be wrong. To get a working permit isnt that easy either. ireland has made it quite tough now for forgeiners to get full working permits if they arent EU citizens.

would you object to me...an Irish and british citizen working with a non-JAA license too???

[MOR]

corklad

Yeah I do enjoy a good argument... probably learned that in some of the pubs around Donegal that I used to frequent!

Ok, so the thrust of your argument is that you dont want qualified current US crews flying irish registered aircraft because they could POSSIBLE be taking jobs from people in other european countries. Is that correct? Isnt that assuming that said possible EU candidates will pass an interview..sim check..etc etc.

Pretty much, yes. In the case of my friend, he is typed with about 3500 hours on the 146 and a training qualification as well. Not sure about the chap on page 2 of this thread, but he sounds experienced on the 146 too. Both are being passed up in favour of American Mesaba pilots... or so the agencies are saying. It makes sense when you think about it, if Cityjet were committed to taking local people first, these two guys would have been hired immediately - there simply aren't that many 146/RJ rated pilots left in Europe.

So could you at least admit it may be hard to find people who are curent, speak english fluently and are ready to go ASAP???

I absolutely agree. All I am saying is hire the locals first. If Cityjet need to make up numbers after all the locals have been soaked up (subject to the usual checks and so forth), I don't care where they come from. The only other thing I am saying, is that if you are going to open up the employment market to foreign licence holders, there should be a reciprocal agreement.

Second, honestly know, you dont think you have anything against americans???

Not at all. I have lived in the US - Illinois, California and Upstate New York - and loved the place and the people. I often go back there for visits, and have many good friends there. This isn't (and has never been) about the US - they aren't doing anything wrong. Nor are the Mesaba pilots - there is nothing wrong with taking a perfectly legal opportunity that is placed in front of you. I would be the first one to buy a Mesaba pilot a beer in Dublin or Paris - it isn't their fault. My objection is solely with the IAA and Cityjet.

would you object to me...an Irish and british citizen working with a non-JAA license too???

Not at all, because I don't think the licence matters. As a Kiwi, I had to do the NZ licences, and when I travelled to Europe, I had to do everything again - except morse, they gave me that one! Took me a year and £60,000 to re-qualify.

My view is that there should be one international pilots licence, and that countries shouldn't be able to restrict the terms of that licence, as for example the French do.

What does matter is that each nation should be able to protect the interests of both their nationals and their wider community, and that it shouldn't be made easy for airlines to hire foreign pilots for economic reasons. America is the most protectionist country in the world when it comes to allowing pilots to work there permanently - until they open their borders, Ireland should maintain a similar policy. Looking after your own should always be paramount, it is what governments are elected for.

If you think about it, this current situation may be good for you if you want to return to Ireland, but it is going to kill the chances of many of your less experienced countrymen, who will now have their career progression halted until all the expats have left. It might be good for you, but if you were in their shoes, I'm sure that you would be spitting nails.

[corklad]

Hey MOR, you are finally talking with a cool head and not sounding so unreasonable...you may even be a decent bloke after all sorry couldnt resisit.

Ok now that you have laid your objections out in a better more straight forward manner I can appreciate what you are saying. However, while I sympathise with your friends situation you know you cant wait around in this business for a job to come to you. you have to make it happen. easier said than done i know. It sucked you had to fork out all that money to re-train for a JAA license and good luck to people who are in a position to do so. If money wasnt a problem for me then I would have probably done it too but I freely admit I couldnt afford it after i completed my training. it's not just the exams but the flying afterwards, the mcc, and possible type rating and the amount of bloody time it takes. Hell, its damn expensive if you are starting from scratch, then to do it all over again...sorry thats too much to expect of anyone in my opinion!!!

I do not like the JAA system because even though its supposed to be EU wide it sooo is not. If you take your Irish or British JAA ticket to france...you will not get a job. I think the french are way more proctionist than the americans! Also its very hard or next to impossible for irish and british pilots to get jobs in other european countries unless you speak their native language fluently...and thats just a convenient way of putting up hurdles. Yet students from said EU nations come to UK or Ireland and we let them in. If anything we adhere to the rules and spirit of the JAA more than most other nations in Europe.

the other thing I think you are forgetting is that Ireland has only 3 million people. With a tiny percentage of pilots. While we are in the EU we are on the edge of europe and are an english speaking nation. I believe that what the IAA does makes sense in these situations. How many local blokes will be trained on the 146...practically none! They are all off to get a type on a 737 or 320, but thats a different thread topic. You are talking about one or two exceptions, who may be available as opposed to blokes who can start right away. and why should ireland hire people from say france if they dont return the favour?? america maybe proctionist but, once you are in the system you do get a very fair shot. I dont think the same can be said of most EU nations.

when you are running a small airline company you cannot afford to wait for a yr to train kids up to fly your planes. you still have bills to pay to keep the whole show going. Plus from my understanding, the US guys coming over are not fresh faced F/O's, they are experienced captains. its unfortunate for your friend, but perhaps he can look at other options...with those hrs i find it hard to believe in the current climate that he cant find work somewhere. hell, aer arann are looking guys with 500 hrs and 50 multi.

there really isnt any need for an ICAO license, though it would make things soo much easier. under the old exam system that the caa or iaa used to do, all that was required was an air law exam and a checkride if you had X amount of hrs. Im pretty sure if one goes from NZ to AUS they dont have to do 14 exams and do training from scratch and a new MCC and a new type do they? nor should they, they are both ICAO countries .

The JAA system, I truely believed was written in collaboration with certain european schools to stop kids going to train in the states or canada and south africa and being able to convert at a later stage. lots of people in ireland choose the forgein route because the aviation facilities in ireland at the time were ziltch (some say it hasnt improved much) and cost a fortune. I knew of one bloke who took a yr to get his ppl cause the weather was so crap. plus before the modular route came about all there was in the UK was oxford or cabair, and those damn places cost a fortune. They had the most to gain under the new regs because there was now a deterrent to train abroad. that is a protection racket in the extreme, when you dont give people the choice to choose where they can fly at a top ICAO standard country then you are employing mafia tactics. well thats how i see it at least.

[MOR]

Hell, its damn expensive if you are starting from scratch, then to do it all over again...sorry thats too much to expect of anyone in my opinion!!!

It also depends WHEN you do it... I did my UK (as it was then) licence in 1988. At the time, the airlines were so short of crews that one even offered to pay for my GFT's and Multi Instrument Rating... how could one refuse...

If you take your Irish or British JAA ticket to france...you will not get a job.

Well, not quite true... I know a few Brits in Air France, and of course Cityjet pilots are effectively working for Air France too. I used to work for Sabena on a validation of a UK licence. I take your point though, when it comes to JAA, the Brits are regarded as the suckers of Europe.

You are talking about one or two exceptions, who may be available as opposed to blokes who can start right away.

The people I am talking about are available immediately, as opposed to having to emigrate from the US... but more to the point, why should there be any exceptions at all? My friend could probably find work elsewhere, but only if he buys a type rating... surely you can't approve of him having to do that?

Im pretty sure if one goes from NZ to AUS they dont have to do 14 exams and do training from scratch and a new MCC and a new type do they?

NZ and AU have an agreement called the Trans Tasman Mutual Recognition Agreement, or TTMRA, under which we recognise each others' licences (with a law exam). However, interestingly the Aussies will recognise any ICAO licence, current or not, which doesn't happen in NZ. We don't do MCC (yet).

plus before the modular route came about all there was in the UK was oxford or cabair, and those damn places cost a fortune.

Oh, come now... what about places like Leavesden, EAA at Fairoaks, Bristol Flight Centre, all the schools at places like Perth and Prestwick and Humberside and Southend? I did mine at EAA, no problems and pretty quick too. In the late '80s there were dozens of schools doing CPL/IRs.

And then there are the other JAA schools operating in Spain and the south of France... no wx problems there.

Anyway it's an interesting topic. Pity I'm not over there at the moment, it would be good to get together and discuss it over an ale or two!

[haughtney1]

OR 3 or 4 or 6 or 8 (notice how the multiplication gets worse as the numbers get higher )

[corklad]

The aussie/nz recognition process sounds identical to what i did in canada. Thats the it should be everwhere. Before I went to the states the IAA did the same thing with south african licenses. when my mate came back from south africa we swaped like for like. with the faa, at the time, i think all you needed 700 hrs on your multi cpl ir and it was a checkride and a law exam. I take the point about the schools in the uk but you forget, I lived in ireland. those school were more expensive (pound sterling) than the two that were in ireland, and took just as long to complete your training. If people were coming back from eastern michigan or embrey riddle after 18 months with all their ratings and close to 1500hrs and johnny down the road was paying twice as much and taking 3 times as long...welll which route would you choose? It would be great if companies brought back the cadeit schemes (open to all) and trained people from scratch but I have long given up hoping for that to happen. Of course to pay for said training they would have to cut costs somewhere, that would either mean less planes which in turn means pilots loose their jobs, or slashing pilot wages like in the states. I actually did pay for my type rating, i had something lines up though so i was lucky. Basically I was offered the job if i got the bare type rating. It was still a gamble but so is life. a secure job today is a job lost tomorrow. just look at companies through time PAN AM, TWA, DANAIR, GILAIR, JET MAGIC the list goes on and on.
The airline industry is cut throat, as is recruitment. There is a lot of money made on wannabes, which is why i believe the JAA system is the way it is now. The old national exams worked perfectly fine...why did anyone need to mess with them???

[mutuallyassured3]

so quick question.... can expats, lets say americans, just come over here, the UK, and work, lets say for Ryanair, do they need a work permit?
is it easy or not. Having read the whole thread, which is an effort, I agree wholeheartedly with MOR, the business of the US 146 drivers coming over is a scandal, in an increasingly confusing industry.

[OneWorld22]

Ah yes but there are supplies around the corner, as you have already been told by myself and others.

Sorry to butt in...

But that is complete arse. There are NO supplies around the corner. That is a fact. There are 146/AvroRJ operators in the UK, Germany and Belgium who are screaming for crews and they cannot get them. All airlines have been advertising and going to any agency in Europe and beyond to try and get crews and there is nothing.

There is a serious shortage in the EU of qualified crews on many aircraft types. Try and find some qualified MD80 Capts and F/O's for instance.

This is all fact gentleman.

[haughtney1]

There is a serious shortage in the EU of qualified crews on many aircraft types. Try and find some qualified MD80 Capts and F/O's for instance.

This is all fact gentleman.

Jolly, perhaps you could qualify that statement?

Does this shortage exist because there REALLY aren't any qualified crews out there?
Or does it exist because the packages that are on offer (from the agencies or interested airlines) are not commensurate with what the qualified and type experienced MD80/RJ/146 drivers currently enjoy?

You seem to be adamant...perhaps you could clear this up?

[OneWorld22]

Sorry to dissapoint you, but is indeed fact. We are almost into just name the price territory at this stage.....

Some of you seem to think this is all some big conspiracy with an army of qualified crews hiding around the corner but who won't go because the salaries etc are being delibrately kept low...

Wake up. It's real simple, there is a lack of qualified JAR pilots.

But please guys, keep up the pretence and conspiracy theroies, it's kind of amusing!!

[haughtney1]

Sorry to disappoint you, but is indeed fact. We are almost into just name the price territory at this stage.....

Perhaps Jolly I wasn't clear with my question I asked you to qualify your statement, I didn't ask to follow up with a sweeping generalization.

My personal contacts tell me otherwise regarding MD80's (of the SAS variety) several of them made inquiries regarding various MD80-83 contracts offered throughout JAR land on the basis of what was their impending redundancy, to a man they turned them down due to poor packages.
I don't believe your comment of "name your price" carries the weight you seem to be portraying

Wake up. It's real simple, there is a lack of qualified JAR pilots

Couldn't agree more, however I would suggest that it is more correct to say that there is a "shortage" of experienced JAR pilots at the right price.

Some of you seem to think this is all some big conspiracy with an army of qualified crews hiding around the corner but who won't go because the salaries etc are being deliberately kept low...

So Jolly you expect us to take at face value agencies can/will negotiate competitive packages for aircrew's without thought to their bottom line..even if it is to their own detriment? Sorry but thats a crock (you and I both know that agencies are self serving, they exist for profit, not to employ crews at high salary levels)

Finally I don't believe for a second that there are crews hiding around the corner, I do however have enough of an understanding of basic supply and demand to know that if you don't pay the going rate..you don't get . To suggest otherwise Jolly is either misleading, or more likely better able to stir up the thread

[OneWorld22]

haughtney1, would you ever consider that there are airlines that pay salaries far above the market rate?

And going on from that, if there are JAR crews who refuse to take JAR positions on offer are airlines then justified in looking abroad for crews of their CAA allows them?

Serious question, this goes to the root of all labor relations in all sectors.

[haughtney1]

haughtney1, would you ever consider that there are airlines that pay salaries far above the market rate?

Jolly by definition..to get a median..you require upper and lower limits..so yeah I would. However thats my point..the markets sets the level, how can agencies and contract employers then whinge about the outcome? after all they tend to be first ones to benefit when an oversupply exists.

And going on from that, if there are JAR crews who refuse to take JAR positions on offer are airlines then justified in looking abroad for crews of their CAA allows them?

Thats the 64 million $ question, I for one subscribe to the viewpoint that the levels that some airlines/agencies are prepared to and believe they can get away with paying, falls far short of what is competitive
There are more than a dozen examples that I can think of off the top of my head where agencies have tried to circumvent existing labour laws/agreements (and at least 7 of those were Irish agencies) to reduce costs, and increase their own profits...so there has to be a regulatory framework with checks and balances.
The specifics of this thread have been done to death, the issues however cannot be overstated....if agencies/airlines are allowed to influence the regulatory authorities unduly, then IMHO its the thin end of the wedge
The evidence would suggest that with the IAA..this is already the case.

[VANWILDER]

BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA
The reason EKKA is because if the tables where turned theres the same chance of me getting a job in the states as there is of angles coming out of my arse and playing me a jig....!

[Tooloose]

I suppose they'd be right angles. Or maybe (a)cute ones.

[haughtney1]

Not the point Ekka, whats good enough for the goose oughta be good enough for the gander
Its called a two way street, not a one way bypass

[groan]

Surely a lack of suitably qualified pilots in Europe allows for Pilots from elsewhere to be 'imported' same as anywhere else in the world for jobs that can't be filled, first look locally and then advertise internationally etc..

There should be no argument, There are currently 3 agencies AND WX trying to fill these positions, they are not looking in the US for the fun of it.. they are looking there because they cannot get European BAe146/AvroRJ pilots. Supply and demand, simple.

(Edited for spelling)