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British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action

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British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action

Old 22nd May 2006, 20:59
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@u0062

Okay there Francis,lighten up!!

@ Bluepilot

I do try to stay informed. Just the other day I had a lenghty conversation with one of our shorter, slightly fullfigured and always redfaced college from the upper part of the island.
He gave me a lot of details the UK pilots face in to their negotiations.

1. bottom of the list with keeping position and salary until over taken by KLM salary. Bottom of the list with position frozen is no problem. However, I did not realise that salary frozen would actually mean a decrease in salary since you wouldn't get nomal yearly raises. That's why I said in an earlier post: salary frozen with the exception of normal UK raises until overtaken by KLM salary this is in my opinion not an unreasonable request. I can not imagine VNV having a problem with that because it would not hurt KLM pilots as long as KLM pilots get pass over pay

2.Pension, Pfff,that's a tough one. You now enjoy a end salary scheme, while all the other pilots have a mid wage scheme. However this should be negotiable.You may not know but, Transavia pilots had until their last CLA negotiations an end wage scheme. However, as this is according to new dutch law almost not feasable anymore, they were able to negotiate a deal where they went to a average wage pension deal in such a way that (granted) almost nobody was of worse.
As it is impossible to just change to the KLM pension ( really this is not possible as every pilot saves individually for his pension, albeit in a collective fund) BALPA should take a hard look at how KLM dealt with the transavia pilots and try to get a similar setup.

3. Basing. That, I'm sorry. that's a bullet you'll have to bite. This is the airline industry, things change.

Anyways, I'm gonna leave the discussion now. When I first posted I wanted to express a genuine hope that you guys would get a fair deal, but I also wanted to voice my displeasure at the constant bashing of the VNV=KLM pilots. It's mainly between KLM and BALPA. When VNV get's involved it's because they are doing what they are paid to do.

Good luck

greetings

Last edited by flyburg; 23rd May 2006 at 07:47.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 21:24
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Flyburg, You in my view correctly support your union. People like Klink should be left in no doubt that walking across a picket line is NOT acceptable.
Thats the point i am making. We were all desperate at one stage in our career to get that special job.I dont feel the VNV would be very impressed
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Old 22nd May 2006, 22:00
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thanks for the informed reply flyburg.

On the pension issue its not the structure of the pension thats the issue, its the fact that the company has stated that the basic KLM bottom of seniority pay would be pensionable, but the "top up pay" to bring us back to our UK salary pay would not. In some cases that would mean that less than half their salary would be pensionable

Lets not forget that this is not a dispute about joining mainline its a dispute that stems from discrimination. Some people are not in a position to accept a mainline contract (those over 56 for example) and they must be protected too in any agreement made for the future.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 13:16
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyburg
Now I know, since most UK pilots have worked here for more than a decade a translation is not needed. Since all the UK pilots expect normal career opportunities without discrimation they have at least strived to have conversational mastery of the language of their employer of the last decade so it shouldn’t be a problem to read the text.
Sorry Autofeather, I couldn’t resist(little bit of sarcasm is intended). Below is a translation witch I made to the best of my ability. I believe it is fairly accurate.
Si nous allons faire ceci dans la langue de notre employeur peut-être devrions-nous la faire en français ?

{My little bit of sarcasm}

Originally Posted by flyburg
I rest my case and give the stage to autofeather who will undoubtely explain this as yet another example of how VNV is to blame for all the misfortune the UK pilots has befallen!!
Hi Flyburg

Thanks for making the post and translation of the VNV statement, I am pleased to note that it is indeed a very good translation – I could not have done nearly half as well myself.

I’m afraid my reply is going to disappoint you though.

Indeed the statement backs up what almost everyone here has been saying, this is a fight for the KLCuk pilots terms and conditions and it is therefore between KLCuk pilots (Balpa) and KLCuk/KLC and KLM. It is not a fight between Balpa and the VNV and I am pleased that both the VNV and Balpa can see eye to eye on this issue and indeed that the VNV seem to be publicly supporting the case of Balpa.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 15:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyburg
Latest VNV newsflash to all it'smembers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It appears that solutions would mainly be in the area where VNV has responsibilities to it’s members. VNV’s official position is that as long as their members are compensated for any negative effect these solutions may have they are fully prepared to cooperate.
VNV will, in the interest of a healthy regional operation, cooperate fully as long as KLM is the one that provides compensation to it’s members.
Compensation to members - This is the part that worries me,, whilst I respect the VNV's position, if the compensation for their members is set too high there will be no deal.
If this is the case then smiling Assasin comes to mind,
I hope I am wrong but my fears are that the VNV dont really want us in and as long as they publically give the impression of being friendly everyone will blame KLM.
Time will tell.
.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 16:32
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Originally Posted by u0062
Klink
you are a disgrace to our industry. In times of trouble it is up to every pilot to look after his or her colleage. People who are willing to break offical picket lines within our industry should be blacklisted from every airline. We have enough problems fending off management trying to erode our termsand conditions we DONT need scabs
Although I as a collaegue in another airline will support industrial action of other unions requesting assistance via Ifalpa or ECA, I think to expect a recruitment ban to be successful as highly unlikely.
Simple fact is that majority of new-hirees are Dutch ab-initio boys and girls from NLS and KLS with 0 hours having a €150000 loan on their back, mostly guaranteed by their parents.
How can you axpect someone like this to honour a ban like this?
I know if I would be one of those, my dad would put a foot up my ass if I would be a student like this and refusing a job with my national airline..
Just be real.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 17:11
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Klink, There are many people looking for work with hefty loans associated with there flying training. However what you are proposing is to break an official picket line. As part of IALPA the VNV would be obliged to support the Balpa strike action in what ever form this may take. I can not imagine that the VNV would condone anyone who wished to further there careers at the expence of fellow pilots who are fighting for there rights.
Should a precident be set by Dutch (out of work pilots taking advantage of this situation) this would involve the VNV breaking ranks with IALPA. This would thus also put the VNV in conflict with the Airfrance. I would suggest that thiswould probaly not be beneficial to KLM pilots. Therefore If anyone was suicidal enough to try and take advantage of the above there career would be finished before it had started. I for one would never fly with a scab.
It would be interesting to find out who would.
I would suggest that the guys and girls who are looking for work keep trying,but be professional. Rise above the comment made by Klink
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Old 23rd May 2006, 17:55
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..Then let IFALPA/VNV put up a warning for the 2 schools being the preferred suppliers of the KLM; of one school students also went to BA, so these you can intimidate.

Don't put a situation like this on the shoulders of a 22 year old for who getting a job nowadays is a small miracle.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 21:10
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Originally Posted by freddyfokker
Compensation to members - This is the part that worries me,, whilst I respect the VNV's position, if the compensation for their members is set too high there will be no deal........
True. But any "reasonable" compensation demand from the VNV must surely be economically more palatable for KLM than the real and hidden costs of a series of strikes, the cost (in pax numbers and yields etc) of all the negative publicity, and the cost of losing a "discrimination" lawsuit in the European court.
So, dont make excuses upfront for KLM. It undermines what BALPA is trying to acheive and is starting to point to the VNV again as the obstruction. If KLM have no option than to negotiate with the VNV, (because of a rightfully machette wielding BALPA ), then leave that fight to KLM and VNV.
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Old 24th May 2006, 20:26
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The time has now come for me to stand with my colleagues and say that I have had enough of the rough end of this particular pineapple. The company have not properly considered us and we are living in a sort of "limbo land". Personally, I don't think that the company want to get rid of us, just yet. However, one little hiccup, one little bit of "rationalisation", one little bit of "down-sizing" and we are the first to go which means that my wife and kids and those of my colleagues are the one's who suffer. The fortunes of companies change over time and there are times when they have to grow a little smaller. But I don't see why I should be one of the first out of the door. I have invested just short of ten years in KLM (via AirUk, KLM uk, KLM Cityhopper uk) and they have received the benefit of my work. I see no reason why that when the axe falls, I falls it falls fairly, valuing the time that each person has spent working for good of the organisation.

I have no fight with any of my KLM Mainline contract colleagues. I have no intention of taking any of their ICA (or 737) jobs. My personal career horizon is a F70/100 Command and maybe a training position as well. I'd just like to be able to get to my horizon - just like the rest of my colleagues - in both the UK and NL divisions.
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Old 25th May 2006, 07:37
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Klink You seem to be missing the point. You originaly post suggested that there would be many of your Dutch colleagues who would be willing to cross a picket line. The purpose of my reply is to ensure that the understand the implications of doing so. With encouragement of course they will, however if they understand the impact of there actions maybe they may think twice before ruining there career. You stated that you would not personally not cross a official picket line, maybe you can explain why for the benefit of your Dutch colleagu es.
PS Look forward to working with you one day my friend
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Old 25th May 2006, 08:03
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I'm not working in the Netherlands; I'm outside of the KLM group.
With colleagues, I meant professional colleagues, not company colleagues.

I would not cross the picket line, since I have my own career, and joining KLM would not be a necessity. So I have a choice. Then I choose to support industrial action.

On the other hand, someone with no hours who anyway needs 2 months of training to have any impact on the operation, will not make the differrence on the cause. And to refuse a KLM job when you have 0 hours needs both balls and deep pockets, since the chances you'll find a comparable job are nil.

So take it out on the pilots joining from other companies or even the schools providing the pilots, but not on the zero hour ab-initio individually.
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Old 25th May 2006, 08:10
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Read my previous post it covers indetail all what you have just said.The bottom line is whatever your situation personally, financially,YOU DO NOT CROSS A OFFICIAL PICKET LINE period
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Old 25th May 2006, 09:37
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Anyway, we are a bit ahead of the facts here; so it's perhaps better to avoid creating different camps.
It'll work out anyway without drastic measures, I hope.
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Old 25th May 2006, 18:33
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KlinK

I hope it works out too,We must remember the battle is with the management not between ourselves. Thanks for an interesting debate my friend. Safe flying
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Old 25th May 2006, 19:05
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likewise
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Old 28th May 2006, 14:42
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Ballot papers arrived yesterday :-) mine is back in the post already. Talking to guys in the crew centre sounds like this is going to be a very well supported action.
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Old 28th May 2006, 15:52
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To all Pprune reading KLMuk contract pilots,

I'm a colleage of you flying on a KLM contract (not KLMuk) for cityhopper.

Just would like to ask you why you did not bother to inform us (dutch side pilots) of your problems apart from the rumours we hear and broken info we get of the CA's /IFS's we both fly with. Surely I can guess what might be the problem and yes, I do read the forum but does everybody? Why have you chosen not to inform KLM contract pilots?

Being the minority group (KLMuk contracts) you would probably create more sympathy among fellow KLM pilots by sharing info.

All we hear is rumours and we see no facts. I think that this doesn't work in your (KLMuk pilots) advantage. If you don't tell us whats going on people might get nervous and I think I know how KLM contacters will react when a seniority discussion will start.

Don't forget that a lot of us have seen, have been feeling and still feel (seniority wise) the integration with KLC and KLM back in '96.

Just consider.

Happy flying.
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Old 28th May 2006, 16:21
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Gearpins Stowed,

I think that most of us have communicated to our collegues on the KLM contract as much as we can, but unfortunatly we are not yet allowed to be VNV members so cannot post on your forum there, we are not allowed access to myklm.com (another discrimination point) so we cannot communicate there, the BALPA forums are closed to non members, we do not have your individual addresses so we cannot write to you.

So apart from public forums and word of mouth when we work together what do you suggest????

All the BALPA members were sent out flyers this week it reads :

Former Air UK pilots (now employed by KLM Cityhopper uk) are in dispute with
the Company having been discriminated against by at least the following means:

pay rates, pension arrangements, base closures, block on recruitment, restriction on Command upgrades and access to management posts, lack of recognition of past service in the KLM Group.

Without recruitment into KLCuk, our Company will not exist for our youngest pilot to achieve retirement age.

As we now fly with KLM colleagues we see our only means of continuing our careers is with KLM contracts awarded on fair and reasonable terms.

same cockpit = same contract

To KLM Staff: - We have enjoyed working with you indirectly for many years and look forward to more years as closer colleagues. We thank you for your support.

To KLC UK Pilots: vote YES to
END DISCRIMINATION
SECURE YOUR CAREER
SECURE YOUR FUTURE
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Old 28th May 2006, 21:18
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Blue pilot,

Tnx for your reply.

Quote: “So apart from public forums and word of mouth when we work together what do you suggest????”

Suggestion: Just write your facts on a paper, copy it 2200 times and hand it out to every to pilot you bump into at the crew centre, the crew bus or on board when changing crews at the outstations. (I’m sure someone must have thought of that but for some reason has decided not to do this.)

Balpa writes about pay rates, pension arrangements, base closures, restriction on Command upgrades and access to management posts;

What and compared to who is something wrong with your pay rate?
What is wrong with your pension?
What are the facts of the base closures?
Is there a restriction on command upgrades?
Management pilot restrictions?

No facts in the Balpa letter. For me, not factual familiar with the KLMuk problems, I can only interpret these statements as unfounded and not verifieable conclusions.

I intentionally put this as straight as I can since I really have little clues of what’s going on.
The BALPA letter does clear just a bit but to tell the truth, it rises more questions than it gives answers.

Happy flying.

Last edited by Gearpins_stowed*; 29th May 2006 at 20:41.
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