British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action
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British KLM pilots to ballot for stike action
I have been told that today the British KLM pilots have formally informed KLM of the intention to ballot for industrial action. This is after many talks with the company to remove the discrimination that has been suffered by the British pilots since they were merged into KLM cityhopper three years ago.
The pilots affected are members of BALPA who will be organising the ballot which will take place within the next two weeks.
I hope for all concerned that a solution can be found
The pilots affected are members of BALPA who will be organising the ballot which will take place within the next two weeks.
I hope for all concerned that a solution can be found
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Originally Posted by KLMer
Oh this is not good news at all.... I hope it can all be sorted out before a formal strike takes place as its not good for both parties.
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Shags, I think our approach is a bit too simplistic re "the Brits out of KLM".
What happened is unfair and needs to be solved, but if it would have been a Dutch airUK pilot he would have been treated the same.
Must say Balpa also needs quite a lot of time time to get into the action, and that this was part of the problem.
What happened is unfair and needs to be solved, but if it would have been a Dutch airUK pilot he would have been treated the same.
Must say Balpa also needs quite a lot of time time to get into the action, and that this was part of the problem.
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quote from shags
"I was led to believe JAA licencing was to produce a common licence acceptable to all EU states for the freeflow of labour. "
this only applies in england
"I was led to believe JAA licencing was to produce a common licence acceptable to all EU states for the freeflow of labour. "
this only applies in england
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This dispute is all about discrimination, yes it has taken BALPA a long time to reach this stage, however all avenues of negotiation and reasoning had to be taken before this last resort action.
We have been shafted time and time again, pension arrangements, management positions, basing policy, no further recruitment in the UK the list is endless.
The vote will be taken in about ten days time with results a further two weeks later, if a soloution is not found in the meantime industrial action will be called and BALPA will be looking to IFALPA for support. In the meantime BALPA has agreed to enter talks with the company at ACAS.
We have been shafted time and time again, pension arrangements, management positions, basing policy, no further recruitment in the UK the list is endless.
The vote will be taken in about ten days time with results a further two weeks later, if a soloution is not found in the meantime industrial action will be called and BALPA will be looking to IFALPA for support. In the meantime BALPA has agreed to enter talks with the company at ACAS.
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No matter that it has taken BALPA a long time to act, the ex Air UK folks have been let down severely by everyone. At the time of the take-over they were given the advice to go with Buzz eventhough KLM was already in talks with Ryan Air for the sell-out. And if you deciced to stay with KLM the senior pilots also got treated poorly. I wish them all goodluck.
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Surely there must be enough grounds, by now, to put KLM on the IFALPA recruitment blacklist.
If not, why not?
Has someone reminded the VNV recently that the the Netherlands is in the EU?
If not, why not?
Has someone reminded the VNV recently that the the Netherlands is in the EU?
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As an outsider, I can only oserve that NOBODY, and certainly no Dutch pilot, would turn down an offer of employment from KLM only because there is an IFALPA recruitment ban.
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Klink
I don't expect that either but merely see it as yet another mechanism to try and get through the extremely thick skin of the VNV.
As an ex Air UK/KLMuk pilot I only wish somebody could have the courage to take KLM/VNV to the European Court as their actions over the last few years to their fellow EU workers has been deplorable.
Part of the problem is the weak UK employment laws (a similar case is the handling of Rover after the take over by BMW) but the treatment of the KLMuk pilots by KLM management has been very poor, mainly as a result of the pressure put on it by the VNV.
I don't expect that either but merely see it as yet another mechanism to try and get through the extremely thick skin of the VNV.
As an ex Air UK/KLMuk pilot I only wish somebody could have the courage to take KLM/VNV to the European Court as their actions over the last few years to their fellow EU workers has been deplorable.
Part of the problem is the weak UK employment laws (a similar case is the handling of Rover after the take over by BMW) but the treatment of the KLMuk pilots by KLM management has been very poor, mainly as a result of the pressure put on it by the VNV.
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Originally Posted by klink
but if it would have been a Dutch airUK pilot he would have been treated the same.
though they have now moved over to the KLM mainline contract.
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For your info:
THe VNV have never directly been against the uk pilots, but rather do not actively support them.
In many meetings over the years they have accepted that some changes could occur, if KLM approached them.
The problem is the Price the VNV set is so high that KLM do not want to entertain their position. THe VNV hold the cards.
The UK pilots suffer. THe Uk employed pilot division are therefore using the industrial position to raise the stakes so that maybe KLM will consider the VNV's asking price as being more palatable than the alternative. There is a deal possible here as long as the VNV talk is genuine and the price is not unreasonable.
Personally whilst I accept the strength of the VNV they are only hurting themsleves in the long run when they show the Air France how to behave.
Pressure must be brought on the VNV to negotiate in good faith with the goal of a solution and not an obstacle.
THe VNV have never directly been against the uk pilots, but rather do not actively support them.
In many meetings over the years they have accepted that some changes could occur, if KLM approached them.
The problem is the Price the VNV set is so high that KLM do not want to entertain their position. THe VNV hold the cards.
The UK pilots suffer. THe Uk employed pilot division are therefore using the industrial position to raise the stakes so that maybe KLM will consider the VNV's asking price as being more palatable than the alternative. There is a deal possible here as long as the VNV talk is genuine and the price is not unreasonable.
Personally whilst I accept the strength of the VNV they are only hurting themsleves in the long run when they show the Air France how to behave.
Pressure must be brought on the VNV to negotiate in good faith with the goal of a solution and not an obstacle.
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KLMer, I'm not talking about your Dutch collaegues; I am talking about the hundreds of unemployed Dutch pilots who would give a damn about a hiring ban if they would get offered a job wit the "blauwe".
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KLMér,
This is not true. At least one pilot was not allowed to go to mainline because he failed his upgrade at UK and subsequently failed the mainline file check. He has since still not been able to upgrade at UK due to lack of capabilities.
The other two or three dutch pilots that went to mainline had the exact same deal as was offered to the british UK pilots at the time. If you are going to state facts, you must tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I have been one of the many KLM pilots that has been very sympathetic to the UK pilots case and have been advocating this on the KLM forum as well as to the VNV. However, your constant bashing of the VNV (=KLM pilots) and sometimes twisting the facts do make it hard to stay sympathetic.
The biggest argument at this moment is between KLM and UK, allienating and personally atacking the KLM pilots does not help your case.
Having said that, I hope you guys get a fair deal. I have met and befriended a lot of the UK pilots and wish them nothing but a fair deal.
Greetings.
This is not true. At least one pilot was not allowed to go to mainline because he failed his upgrade at UK and subsequently failed the mainline file check. He has since still not been able to upgrade at UK due to lack of capabilities.
The other two or three dutch pilots that went to mainline had the exact same deal as was offered to the british UK pilots at the time. If you are going to state facts, you must tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I have been one of the many KLM pilots that has been very sympathetic to the UK pilots case and have been advocating this on the KLM forum as well as to the VNV. However, your constant bashing of the VNV (=KLM pilots) and sometimes twisting the facts do make it hard to stay sympathetic.
The biggest argument at this moment is between KLM and UK, allienating and personally atacking the KLM pilots does not help your case.
Having said that, I hope you guys get a fair deal. I have met and befriended a lot of the UK pilots and wish them nothing but a fair deal.
Greetings.
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PREDATEUR......
"-Pilots will kill themselves over seniority.."
Once told by a wise "old man" that I heard of some years ago. And maybe that explains a few tragic turns lately.. A 45 year old pilot with +15000 hours can suddenly end up as a FO to a rookie.. Is that safe?
Once told by a wise "old man" that I heard of some years ago. And maybe that explains a few tragic turns lately.. A 45 year old pilot with +15000 hours can suddenly end up as a FO to a rookie.. Is that safe?
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As an afterthought,
BALPA= British Airline Pilots Association
VNV=DALPA= Dutch Pilots Association
It is the job of Balpa to look after the best interest of the UK pilots and it is the job of the VNV to look after the interest of dutch pilots. It is a myth that VNV is actively stopping a deal between UK and KLM. The main argument is between KLM and UK, however, when UK wants seniority based on for example DOH than VNV would rightfully step in ( I would hope so)
I would like to hear some comments from a BA pilot if, Oh say, Brit Air pilots( I believe they are french) would find themselves in the same position and the Brit Air pilots would blame BALPA for stopping a DOH integration, or any deal that would adversely affect british pilots!!!! Anybody care to comment.
I think that being stapled to the bottom of the list with postion being frozen until able to bid better, salary frozen with exception of normal UK yearly increases until overtaken by mainline salary and a decent solution for the pension deal is a fair deal and should be attainable. I doubt that VNV would object because it would not hurt the group they represent. I doubt wether BALPA would allow a better deal, where the situation reversed.
And Finally, for arguments sake, any deal with AF and KLM would be completely different as both companys have a comparable fleet although AF is roughly 2/3 bigger so integration would also differ. To say otherwise is completely childish. However if an integration would take place requiring me tomove to France I would go.
greetings
BALPA= British Airline Pilots Association
VNV=DALPA= Dutch Pilots Association
It is the job of Balpa to look after the best interest of the UK pilots and it is the job of the VNV to look after the interest of dutch pilots. It is a myth that VNV is actively stopping a deal between UK and KLM. The main argument is between KLM and UK, however, when UK wants seniority based on for example DOH than VNV would rightfully step in ( I would hope so)
I would like to hear some comments from a BA pilot if, Oh say, Brit Air pilots( I believe they are french) would find themselves in the same position and the Brit Air pilots would blame BALPA for stopping a DOH integration, or any deal that would adversely affect british pilots!!!! Anybody care to comment.
I think that being stapled to the bottom of the list with postion being frozen until able to bid better, salary frozen with exception of normal UK yearly increases until overtaken by mainline salary and a decent solution for the pension deal is a fair deal and should be attainable. I doubt that VNV would object because it would not hurt the group they represent. I doubt wether BALPA would allow a better deal, where the situation reversed.
And Finally, for arguments sake, any deal with AF and KLM would be completely different as both companys have a comparable fleet although AF is roughly 2/3 bigger so integration would also differ. To say otherwise is completely childish. However if an integration would take place requiring me tomove to France I would go.
greetings
Last edited by flyburg; 20th May 2006 at 20:00.
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I totally agree, Flyburg.
It is amazing to see the number of people who think of this as a VNV versus BALPA fight
The VNV cannot just rollover and let their belly be tickled by KLM. It is give and take, by negotiation, but always looking for an advantage for the VNV members wherever possible. Nothing wrong with that. It is what the VNV member pilots pay their subs for, and it is what the members want.
Funnily enough, it is also what the UK pilots want from BALPA, and it is what BALPA now have to deliver. Losing sight of the real 'enemy' does not help to acheive the required end result.
Perhaps one of the "the VNV is the obstacle" brigade could explain what kind of deal they would be prepared to accept if they were on the VNV negotiating team...........
It is amazing to see the number of people who think of this as a VNV versus BALPA fight
The VNV cannot just rollover and let their belly be tickled by KLM. It is give and take, by negotiation, but always looking for an advantage for the VNV members wherever possible. Nothing wrong with that. It is what the VNV member pilots pay their subs for, and it is what the members want.
Funnily enough, it is also what the UK pilots want from BALPA, and it is what BALPA now have to deliver. Losing sight of the real 'enemy' does not help to acheive the required end result.
Perhaps one of the "the VNV is the obstacle" brigade could explain what kind of deal they would be prepared to accept if they were on the VNV negotiating team...........