Pilot Strike at KLM?
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Pilot Strike at KLM?
I have reliable information that there is a looming dispute between KLM and the ex Air UK pilots that didn’t wish to join KLM mainline. It seems KLM have employed discriminatory tactics in dealing with this 130 strong portion of the workforce. The pilots have exhausted their goodwill and patience and are now in the final stages of grievance procedures. Next stop will be a ballot to strike.
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Over the past few years there has been an awful lot of discrimination against the ex KLMuk pilots, no entry to mainline, attacks on the pension, cant recruit new "uk" pilots due to a document agreed by the dutch pilots union (VNV). Also this document called for the "uk" pilot force to reduce in numbers over a period of five years (KLM continue to recruit to expand!!), restrictions on promotions, denial of training and management jobs, (even when an ex uker is selected as the best man for the job!!!) the list is endless. Yet they are expected to fly the "fokker" aircraft to the same SOPs crew mixed with their KLM collegues.
This is a shameful abuse by KLM and the VNV and the UK pilots have had enough.
This is a shameful abuse by KLM and the VNV and the UK pilots have had enough.
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You're right angels , thats why the request for more info.
and blue pilot, I do very much sympathize.
klm/vnv does tend to keep the good stuff for a very select group.
other daughters have to work just as hard for a lot less.
and blue pilot, I do very much sympathize.
klm/vnv does tend to keep the good stuff for a very select group.
other daughters have to work just as hard for a lot less.
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.......and there was me hoping someone was going to offer some good news and announce the death of City, sorry, ****tyhopper! Dreadful set-up in my opinion and personally would not be dissapointed to see the end of the arms length relationship they have with KLM, who are, otherwise, fairly ok. Would love to see the perfomance stats of Cityhopper alone and I bet it doesn't make for good reading.....
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Originally Posted by autobrake3
How about a straight job swap with all the dutch boys working for EZY in the UK.......
Are you a Brit wanting the Dutch out of EZY, or a Dutchie wanting the Brits out of KLC ?
A mate of mine in KLMuk is happy to live and work in the Netherlands but deeply resents being treated as a second class citizen. I imagine the Dutch Boys in EZY get exactly the same deal as the Brits (and everyone else) in EZY. If only the KLM/KLC management were as enlightenend.
Remind me again of the origins of the word "apartheid"..............
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''Apartheid'' !!
Well said , 3605.... , it is amazing in this day and age of the EU , level playing fields blah blah blah , that only in UK does nationality never matter in aviation.
If you have EU passport , relevant type rating , hours etc , you will edge out any poor Brit trying to make it in his home country. Can we make this same policy all over the EU ? Or can we all put up the same barriers instead ,just like the bad old days..which seem not to have gone away on the continent?
Sadly ,it always seems to be Pilots Unions which are causing the problems . If Balpa tried to enforce Nationality-based restrictions in the UK they would be hit by a ton of legislation. Why does this not apply elsewhere ? We all know which countries Union is causing the over-60's pilots to be prevented from freedom to ply their trade .Why is it allowed to happen ?
Its all cobblers.
If you have EU passport , relevant type rating , hours etc , you will edge out any poor Brit trying to make it in his home country. Can we make this same policy all over the EU ? Or can we all put up the same barriers instead ,just like the bad old days..which seem not to have gone away on the continent?
Sadly ,it always seems to be Pilots Unions which are causing the problems . If Balpa tried to enforce Nationality-based restrictions in the UK they would be hit by a ton of legislation. Why does this not apply elsewhere ? We all know which countries Union is causing the over-60's pilots to be prevented from freedom to ply their trade .Why is it allowed to happen ?
Its all cobblers.
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sadly i wish this myth was not true but it is.
and as you made a reference to the French perhaps they would like to read this thread and see how KLM and the VNV deal with cross border mergers! useful information for them when Air France and KLM merge in exactly how do deal with it. Now lets see...... all KLM contracted pilots are to be treated the same as they treated the Brits.......... there would be an outcry!! national TV strikes, the VNV would be straight to IFALPA for support........ however i do believe the French have a greater sense of fair play, but maybe not....... only time will tell.
and as you made a reference to the French perhaps they would like to read this thread and see how KLM and the VNV deal with cross border mergers! useful information for them when Air France and KLM merge in exactly how do deal with it. Now lets see...... all KLM contracted pilots are to be treated the same as they treated the Brits.......... there would be an outcry!! national TV strikes, the VNV would be straight to IFALPA for support........ however i do believe the French have a greater sense of fair play, but maybe not....... only time will tell.
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@ph-gjk
Frankly I don't care what the dutch EZY pilots want. I do know that you have no idea what you're talking about...
1) It is by no means a given that you start off as a relief- pilot. In fact, chances are that you'll start off as a co-pilot FK50/B737.
2) You'll find that the culture within KLM has changed dramatically within the past 15 years. Lots of new-hires are "free-market" (i.e. non_ KLM flightschool grads). It is no longer required to play golf on layovers...
3) As a KLM pilot I'm appalled at the deal KLM UK pilots were handed. It is simply not the way you treat people. Then again, I'm not a manager and never will be. Having said that, KLM UK pilots are but a small group within the pilot-body and there were other considerations, I'm sure. You'll always get the short end of the stick if you're in the minority. It's called "democracy"
We're not all bad you know...
Try to make some informed statements next time.
Do you really think that the dutch pilots at EZY would like to go to the arrogant KLM where they have to work for at least 2-5 years as an releave pilot?
1) It is by no means a given that you start off as a relief- pilot. In fact, chances are that you'll start off as a co-pilot FK50/B737.
2) You'll find that the culture within KLM has changed dramatically within the past 15 years. Lots of new-hires are "free-market" (i.e. non_ KLM flightschool grads). It is no longer required to play golf on layovers...
3) As a KLM pilot I'm appalled at the deal KLM UK pilots were handed. It is simply not the way you treat people. Then again, I'm not a manager and never will be. Having said that, KLM UK pilots are but a small group within the pilot-body and there were other considerations, I'm sure. You'll always get the short end of the stick if you're in the minority. It's called "democracy"
We're not all bad you know...
Try to make some informed statements next time.
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Many KLMuk pilots would prefer to live in the UK and many Dutch pilots would prefer to live in the Netherlands, circumstances have for many dictated otherwise so please do not suppose xenophobia on my part.
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Maybe a tad old fashioned but . . .
. . . what is wrong with giving priority to Brits for jobs in the UK? It is kind of sensible is it not? Would you rather see Brit pilots on welfare or driving a cab whilst foreigners fly our national registered aircraft? What is the matter with a little protectionism - it would appear we in the UK are the ONLY ones who do not practise it! Try getting a pilots job in France; not that one would want to BUT . . .
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I agree with fireloop on this one. As an ex KLM uk pilot who moved to KLM I am also saddened by how the Air Uk guys have been treated over the last 3 years, worse still that people who have become good friends have felt the only option is to leave. No company is perfect and any person who wishes it upon the KLM pilots to be treated the way the Air Uk guys were, well, shame on you is all I can say. Some comments posted here really should be taken with a pinch of salt! As for joining the company and having to be a relief pilot for 5 years, would normally be the case I think but direct entry Captains are being recruited right now so things do change!
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My knowledge of the deal offered to ex KLMuk pilots is as follows:
1) Pilots over age 46 were not offered an opportunity to apply (age discrimination);
2) The deal included an option to transfer to Buzz, which KLM were at the time secretly selling off to Ryanair (an option KLM knew ex KLMuk'ers would never have the chance to exercise);
3) The deal called for compulsory demotion of F100 captains who would never have sufficient seniority in KLM to get back to the LHS of their own type and never have enough years left before retirement to make up the earnings lost by demotion.
If the reality was that the deal was unmissable, 190 pilots must have been asleep at the time.
1) Pilots over age 46 were not offered an opportunity to apply (age discrimination);
2) The deal included an option to transfer to Buzz, which KLM were at the time secretly selling off to Ryanair (an option KLM knew ex KLMuk'ers would never have the chance to exercise);
3) The deal called for compulsory demotion of F100 captains who would never have sufficient seniority in KLM to get back to the LHS of their own type and never have enough years left before retirement to make up the earnings lost by demotion.
If the reality was that the deal was unmissable, 190 pilots must have been asleep at the time.
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Originally Posted by Ennie
I agree with fireloop on this one. As an ex KLM uk pilot who moved to KLM I am also saddened by how the Air Uk guys have been treated over the last 3 years, worse still that people who have become good friends have felt the only option is to leave. No company is perfect and any person who wishes it upon the KLM pilots to be treated the way the Air Uk guys were, well, shame on you is all I can say. Some comments posted here really should be taken with a pinch of salt! As for joining the company and having to be a relief pilot for 5 years, would normally be the case I think but direct entry Captains are being recruited right now so things do change!
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Ennie,
Only reason those direct entry captains are hired is that non of the resident pilots want to take it, Direct entry Capt. F50 will move to the right seat when changing to Any other equipment, and their FO's will make more money.
Oh yes and you have to be a graduate from a "preffered Training School"... Hmm free market? (Don't worry i am not in the running for a Blue ribbon any more, deemed too old now, and moving to other things
)
I sympathise with the KLMuk guy's, they have been robbed!
Only reason those direct entry captains are hired is that non of the resident pilots want to take it, Direct entry Capt. F50 will move to the right seat when changing to Any other equipment, and their FO's will make more money.
Oh yes and you have to be a graduate from a "preffered Training School"... Hmm free market? (Don't worry i am not in the running for a Blue ribbon any more, deemed too old now, and moving to other things
)I sympathise with the KLMuk guy's, they have been robbed!
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I Totally agree with Fireloop and Ennie the way KLM have treated the ex KLMuk guys has been very bad indeed, one should never wish that on anyother worker in our industry. Lets hope it can all be worked out as striking is not a good option for anyone to get into in the longrun as it does everyone damage.
Pointer & 36050100, I think your slightly miss guided, you are correct in saying that no-one wanted to take the position of FK50 command, this was due to the fact that a FK70/100 co-pilot would be earning the same money as a FK50 captain (on dutch contract), this has now been re-negotiated... secondly those positions could have been filled by a British pilot but only if he was willing to sign the KLM contract if he/she did not want to go through the direct entry interview process but you forget you would be applying for a Dutch contracted job anyhow (pro's and cons im not going to go into this one). The direct entry requirements did not require you to come from an approved school so it is an open market. Yes your right you would have to adopt the right hand seat again for a new aircraft type that is called SENIORITY it keeps everyone happy.
I am one of the ex-KLMuk guys to sign up for the mainline contract and for me it has been one of the best jobs i could have ever dream't for, though i do admit it only was only good for a few ie co-pilots.
What i am supprised about is how some of my ex-KLMuk colleagues bully and ostracise me on an everyday occurance since i signed the new contract, i would love to know how i have personally changed and deserve this. One cant even go into the old NH (AIRuk bar) Hotel without getting abuse.
I hope that in the long run BALPA and KLM can find a solution that will work for both parties. At the moment we are 2 work forces doing the same job and thats not right after all.
Pointer & 36050100, I think your slightly miss guided, you are correct in saying that no-one wanted to take the position of FK50 command, this was due to the fact that a FK70/100 co-pilot would be earning the same money as a FK50 captain (on dutch contract), this has now been re-negotiated... secondly those positions could have been filled by a British pilot but only if he was willing to sign the KLM contract if he/she did not want to go through the direct entry interview process but you forget you would be applying for a Dutch contracted job anyhow (pro's and cons im not going to go into this one). The direct entry requirements did not require you to come from an approved school so it is an open market. Yes your right you would have to adopt the right hand seat again for a new aircraft type that is called SENIORITY it keeps everyone happy.
I am one of the ex-KLMuk guys to sign up for the mainline contract and for me it has been one of the best jobs i could have ever dream't for, though i do admit it only was only good for a few ie co-pilots.
What i am supprised about is how some of my ex-KLMuk colleagues bully and ostracise me on an everyday occurance since i signed the new contract, i would love to know how i have personally changed and deserve this. One cant even go into the old NH (AIRuk bar) Hotel without getting abuse.
I hope that in the long run BALPA and KLM can find a solution that will work for both parties. At the moment we are 2 work forces doing the same job and thats not right after all.
Last edited by KLMer; 9th Mar 2006 at 22:28.
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Originally Posted by KLMer
I Totally agree with Fireloop and Ennie the way KLM have treated the ex KLMuk guys has been very bad indeed, one should never wish that on any other worker in our industry. Lets hope it can all be worked out as striking is not a good option for anyone to get into in the longrun as it does everyone damage..
Hopefully a resolution can be found
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It is truly shocking but was anybody really in any doubt that working for any national airline outside the UK, especially the Dutch with the VNV, was ever not going to end in tears.
Lufthansa the same. The expat guys flying for cargo who were there via German Cargo or other contracts etc made to feel like second class citizens. Told can convert to MD11 but course only available in German language.
Frogs the same.
They can come over here and fly for us but my God they make it awfully difficult for any reciprocal deal!!
Lufthansa the same. The expat guys flying for cargo who were there via German Cargo or other contracts etc made to feel like second class citizens. Told can convert to MD11 but course only available in German language.
Frogs the same.
They can come over here and fly for us but my God they make it awfully difficult for any reciprocal deal!!