Ryanair 5/4 Roster & 5% Pay Deal?
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Ibanez, No the point is you will still get 20 days leave butyou wont be able to choose when you take them. You will be able to choose when you take 15 of them the rest 5 plus 8 in lieu of bank holidays will be used in the 4 off part of your roster. Also the company can change you every 3 months from 5/4 back to 5/3 so you wont know if the days you have selected for annual leave form a continuous period of time off or not. You will also loose some of the days off to attend the sim/safety days etc. You will no longer have a stable roster that the company trumpets so loudly and it will be pure luck if you manage to organize a holiday that fits with planned leave.
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Ryanair negotiates radical five on, four off flightcrew rostering change
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DATE:07/03/06
SOURCE:Flight International
Ryanair negotiates radical five on, four off flightcrew rostering change
Carrier holds talks with pilots to change duties to five days flying followed by four off
Ryanair says its pilot to aircraft ratio is as high now as it has ever been and denies widespread industry rumours that its flightcrew recruitment and training has not been able to keep up with fleet growth. Meanwhile, the carrier is in “direct negotiations” with its pilots about the possibility of a radical change to its flightcrew rostering pattern to which the reaction has so far been positive, says chief pilot Capt Ray Conway.
© BOEING
The airline’s head of air and ground operations David O’Brien claims that the airline is recruiting and training pilots at a rate of 300 to 400 a year to meet a fleet expansion of between 30 and 40 aircraft every 12 months. Last year, says Conway, the airline took on 300 new pilots, created 150 new commands and 40 new training positions. At present the airline has “more than the nominal nine pilots per aircraft”, says O’Brien.
Ryanair’s fleet currently consists of around 100 Boeing 737-800s, with a further 140 on backlog. For about two more years the airline will continue to recruit some direct-entry captains to meet the command requirements it cannot fill through internal promotion, says O’Brien, but after that time the airline’s cadetship and training scheme will have eliminated that need and all captains will be promoted from within. He insists, however, that there is no shortage of quality pilot applicants with full commercial licences.
Now Ryanair is engaged in “negotiations” with its pilots about a proposal to change from its existing roster system – five days flying followed by three days off – to a five-on/four-off ratio. Conway says the airline’s simple operating formula should mean that its pilots could continue to achieve close to 900h annually, but duty hours would be spread more evenly over the 12-month period.
Late last week the airline was continuing the roster negotiations with pilots from the employee representative committee based at the carrier’s largest single base, London Stansted. There would, says deputy chief executive Howard Millar, need to be some quid pro quo from the flightcrew before the company could agree to formalise a 5:4 ratio, but he would not be specific on this until all the pilots have had time to react to the proposals. Many pilots who apply to join Ryanair cite its 5:3 work/time-off ratio as being one of the factors in their choice, so 5:4 would be an even greater incentive, Conway suggests.
SubscribeYou are in: Home › News Article
DATE:07/03/06
SOURCE:Flight International
Ryanair negotiates radical five on, four off flightcrew rostering change
Carrier holds talks with pilots to change duties to five days flying followed by four off
Ryanair says its pilot to aircraft ratio is as high now as it has ever been and denies widespread industry rumours that its flightcrew recruitment and training has not been able to keep up with fleet growth. Meanwhile, the carrier is in “direct negotiations” with its pilots about the possibility of a radical change to its flightcrew rostering pattern to which the reaction has so far been positive, says chief pilot Capt Ray Conway.
© BOEING
Ryanair says duty hours could be spread more easily
The airline’s head of air and ground operations David O’Brien claims that the airline is recruiting and training pilots at a rate of 300 to 400 a year to meet a fleet expansion of between 30 and 40 aircraft every 12 months. Last year, says Conway, the airline took on 300 new pilots, created 150 new commands and 40 new training positions. At present the airline has “more than the nominal nine pilots per aircraft”, says O’Brien.
Ryanair’s fleet currently consists of around 100 Boeing 737-800s, with a further 140 on backlog. For about two more years the airline will continue to recruit some direct-entry captains to meet the command requirements it cannot fill through internal promotion, says O’Brien, but after that time the airline’s cadetship and training scheme will have eliminated that need and all captains will be promoted from within. He insists, however, that there is no shortage of quality pilot applicants with full commercial licences.
Now Ryanair is engaged in “negotiations” with its pilots about a proposal to change from its existing roster system – five days flying followed by three days off – to a five-on/four-off ratio. Conway says the airline’s simple operating formula should mean that its pilots could continue to achieve close to 900h annually, but duty hours would be spread more evenly over the 12-month period.
Late last week the airline was continuing the roster negotiations with pilots from the employee representative committee based at the carrier’s largest single base, London Stansted. There would, says deputy chief executive Howard Millar, need to be some quid pro quo from the flightcrew before the company could agree to formalise a 5:4 ratio, but he would not be specific on this until all the pilots have had time to react to the proposals. Many pilots who apply to join Ryanair cite its 5:3 work/time-off ratio as being one of the factors in their choice, so 5:4 would be an even greater incentive, Conway suggests.
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I cannot think why anyone would oppose a change from 5 on 3 off which is the most eficient way to roster most categories of airline staff including pilots to a 5 on 4 off, which is clearly more desirable socially. Unless, of course it is associated with a change in the planned flight schedules. Perhaps it is associated with a change in the mix of earlies/lates. Perhaps they are planning even earlier departures and even later arrivals back at base. If that is so the extra day off might be an illusion. But if Ryanair could get a better ownweship to flight cost ratio in that way it would be yet another cost reduction for them. I think this issue has a long way to run.
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Interesting times.
I notice from "Roster" para 24 that:- "If FTL's are reached or come into play, then, in order of priority; annual leave, then training, then time off will be allocated.
Why wouldn't FTL's be reached?
So 'Stop the Rot', my friend, I'm afraid you've missed a bit. When we have reached our 900 hours next January we can have our remaining 17 days of our leave allocated to us when we can't work anyway.
What good fun!
There seems to be a bit of a literary theme at the moment on Pprune.
Howard Millar has gone one step further and started talking Latin, ie (is that latin?) a 'quid pro quo'. I think that means 'something for something', or in management speak - something for nothing.
Chaucer was after the Romans and in the 'Miller's Tale', I believe there is some celebrated quote "Kiss my naked arse!
Hmmm.
I notice from "Roster" para 24 that:- "If FTL's are reached or come into play, then, in order of priority; annual leave, then training, then time off will be allocated.
Why wouldn't FTL's be reached?
So 'Stop the Rot', my friend, I'm afraid you've missed a bit. When we have reached our 900 hours next January we can have our remaining 17 days of our leave allocated to us when we can't work anyway.
What good fun!
There seems to be a bit of a literary theme at the moment on Pprune.
Howard Millar has gone one step further and started talking Latin, ie (is that latin?) a 'quid pro quo'. I think that means 'something for something', or in management speak - something for nothing.
Chaucer was after the Romans and in the 'Miller's Tale', I believe there is some celebrated quote "Kiss my naked arse!
Hmmm.
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Ok guys, please to make it clear (even for me): The summary they want to take us away is:
-(Sector)-Pay reduction = 15%
-Cutting 14 leave days
-No more the possibility to combine the remaining A/L-days with the OFFs before and after the A/L-days like, 4OFF + 5A/L + 4OFF , would mean 13 days OFF for 5 A/L ???
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Ryanair Pay deal - 5%???
Ok so everyone's talking about 5-4 but what about the rest of the deal? Personally I like 5-3, I'm more interested in the other parts of the deal and I'd like to know what guys in other bases think. We need to focus on getting the best deal possible rather than shouting and screaming about 5-4
Pay
Ok 5% this year is great but 1% for the next 4?? Let's insist that the 1% is increased substantially.
Sector Pay
The payment per block hour is fairer than the old system but the numbes look wrong to me. Let's put together the right numbers and get an increase here too.
Share Options
How much can we get out of them here?
Roster
Let's get as many of the strings removed as possible - if we can't do that lets stick with the stable 5-3, it's better than anywhere else at the moment.
Look, if we can't get what we want then we reject it - it's that simple. All this crowing and scuttling from the sidelines gets us nowhere.
Pay
Ok 5% this year is great but 1% for the next 4?? Let's insist that the 1% is increased substantially.
Sector Pay
The payment per block hour is fairer than the old system but the numbes look wrong to me. Let's put together the right numbers and get an increase here too.
Share Options
How much can we get out of them here?
Roster
Let's get as many of the strings removed as possible - if we can't do that lets stick with the stable 5-3, it's better than anywhere else at the moment.
Look, if we can't get what we want then we reject it - it's that simple. All this crowing and scuttling from the sidelines gets us nowhere.
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Clearly you're not a member of REPA leanmachine as the debate there is a bit further advanced than where you are at. However the "reject it" suggestion you suggest would fit in quite well.
That's not to even join the debate as to whether what FR pilots think will make the slightest bit of difference to what FR is going to implement.
That's not to even join the debate as to whether what FR pilots think will make the slightest bit of difference to what FR is going to implement.
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There is no actual increase in pay because you will lose between 5 and 10% of sector pay . And F/O's and SFO's will lose even more .
So that ridiculous offer is totally unacceptable .
So that ridiculous offer is totally unacceptable .
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If we stick with the 5/3 it will not be as stable as last year. At last weeks meeting we were told that with the new crewing management in place they will have the resources to crew to the book. ie no wrap around days each end of leave and 5/2 six times per year.
I like the idea of 5/4 but it must be a constant 5/4 and not as variable as proposed. For that I would be prepared to have say 9 days leave allocated in the blocks of 4 but we MUST have the wraparound days so that 5 days leave becomes 13 days off. Otherwise every time you have leave your shift pattern changes.
I like the idea of 5/4 but it must be a constant 5/4 and not as variable as proposed. For that I would be prepared to have say 9 days leave allocated in the blocks of 4 but we MUST have the wraparound days so that 5 days leave becomes 13 days off. Otherwise every time you have leave your shift pattern changes.
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jazzcat2000
So what? If we stick to 5/3 you won't lose money , won't be doing SIM on your days off and once again will be N/A for a month next year ( even more if you don't get A/L with days off as it used to be) . Sounds stupid I know .
And in the end . It doesn't matter how many people they hire for rostering . It will be the same mess anyway - you know that .
So what? If we stick to 5/3 you won't lose money , won't be doing SIM on your days off and once again will be N/A for a month next year ( even more if you don't get A/L with days off as it used to be) . Sounds stupid I know .
And in the end . It doesn't matter how many people they hire for rostering . It will be the same mess anyway - you know that .
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Lean,just to clarify that 5% in year one and 1% thereafter,is calculated on salary and does not include sector pay(which is being reduced).So it equates to far below the figures quoted.
The old RYANAIR GIVE WITH ONE HAND AND TAKE IT BACK WITH THE OTHER trick.
The old RYANAIR GIVE WITH ONE HAND AND TAKE IT BACK WITH THE OTHER trick.
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OK so this is how is going to work:
* No we get 12 days of our leave allocated at companys discretion = before
I could use these days as I wish and for every 6 days of my leave I
actually get 12 days off. TOTAL LOSS 12 DAYS
* Now I go to the sim on my days off = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS 4 TO 6 DAYS
* Now if I go sick when I get back I will work 5 on 3 off or 5 on 2 off to compensate my absence = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS FEW DAYS
* Now because all of these rules my roster patern can change frecuently = before I had a very stable roster. TOTAL LOSS STEADY ROSTER
* Now because we fly 5 on 4 off I will be spreading my 900 hours throughout
the year = before I enjoyed at least 16 days of not available because I have been very high on hours every single month and I will also lose my January, February and March of not flying because I don't have any more hours left = TOTAL LOSS 16 DAYS and JANUARY, FEBRUARY AND MARCH OFF
* Now because all these benefits the company will change my flight pay = before no change. TOTAL LOSS 15% REDUCTION
* Now we won't get pension, medicals, loss of license, food, water, car park = before I did'nt get that either. TOTAL LOSS MY SENSE OF HUMOR
* Now we get s**t share options but for that you will have to stay in this company for the next 5 years = before we did'nt get that but quite frankly who wants to stay here 5 years anyway. TOTAL LOSS 5 YEARS OF MY LIFE
I am starting to see signs of desperation because the truth is that the current 5 on 3 off roster that we have at the moment it just simply doesn't work. We all get so high on hours every month that they have to give us lots of not available days. By the time we reach January we all don't have hours left so they have to wet lease just about every airline in Europe to fly for us and if they don't change something I wonder where are they going to find enough captains to fly their new and shiny 45 B737-800 that are coming next year.
Just say no and say yes to 4 on 4 off, medicals, loss of license, pension, etc. Finally the market is changeing and is time to get what we lost.
* No we get 12 days of our leave allocated at companys discretion = before
I could use these days as I wish and for every 6 days of my leave I
actually get 12 days off. TOTAL LOSS 12 DAYS
* Now I go to the sim on my days off = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS 4 TO 6 DAYS
* Now if I go sick when I get back I will work 5 on 3 off or 5 on 2 off to compensate my absence = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS FEW DAYS
* Now because all of these rules my roster patern can change frecuently = before I had a very stable roster. TOTAL LOSS STEADY ROSTER
* Now because we fly 5 on 4 off I will be spreading my 900 hours throughout
the year = before I enjoyed at least 16 days of not available because I have been very high on hours every single month and I will also lose my January, February and March of not flying because I don't have any more hours left = TOTAL LOSS 16 DAYS and JANUARY, FEBRUARY AND MARCH OFF
* Now because all these benefits the company will change my flight pay = before no change. TOTAL LOSS 15% REDUCTION
* Now we won't get pension, medicals, loss of license, food, water, car park = before I did'nt get that either. TOTAL LOSS MY SENSE OF HUMOR
* Now we get s**t share options but for that you will have to stay in this company for the next 5 years = before we did'nt get that but quite frankly who wants to stay here 5 years anyway. TOTAL LOSS 5 YEARS OF MY LIFE
I am starting to see signs of desperation because the truth is that the current 5 on 3 off roster that we have at the moment it just simply doesn't work. We all get so high on hours every month that they have to give us lots of not available days. By the time we reach January we all don't have hours left so they have to wet lease just about every airline in Europe to fly for us and if they don't change something I wonder where are they going to find enough captains to fly their new and shiny 45 B737-800 that are coming next year.
Just say no and say yes to 4 on 4 off, medicals, loss of license, pension, etc. Finally the market is changeing and is time to get what we lost.
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Haruki
The point I was trying to make is E.W. said if we stay the same they now have a dedicated rostering team in Dublin who will ensured that roster is per previous agreement with 5/2 six times a year and leave before or after days off but not both. This did not happen previously when EMA did the roster so it is even more important now that we get a good robust deal thrashed out.
The point I was trying to make is E.W. said if we stay the same they now have a dedicated rostering team in Dublin who will ensured that roster is per previous agreement with 5/2 six times a year and leave before or after days off but not both. This did not happen previously when EMA did the roster so it is even more important now that we get a good robust deal thrashed out.
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not interested in proposed pay deal
hi everyone, I for one am not interested in the new deal, I would like the new 5 on 4 off but i just cannot see it happening or being maintained, I am happy enough with 5 on 3 off. The sector pay is poor and as a second officer I feel its very unfair, can anyone answer if its 15 pounds under 4 hours and 17 pounds over 4 hours, is there an average taken if you do six hours and if you were on half sector pay for six months on this deal you could be making £725.00 basic plus 600 ponuds half sector on average. It seems a bit degrading and some of my fellow professionals feel the same. Any positive feedback would be grateful