Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees
Save a copy of it, I expect it will be removed.
If the allegations made in this document are true, then it sounds like there is a possibility that this is a less than ideal work culture.
Next question:- Do they treat the rest of their staff like this? Cabin crew and engineers?
If the allegations made in this document are true, then it sounds like there is a possibility that this is a less than ideal work culture.
Next question:- Do they treat the rest of their staff like this? Cabin crew and engineers?
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Sunfish to my mind much of what is in that document has been mentioned here on pprune over the past couple of years. It's just that one tends to forget all of what one reads. Only today I was looking (unsuccessfully) for the thread started by somebody who was warning about his having paid for a B737 rating, but months later was still not close to getting paid due to training delays. Still only an allegation at one level, but you can actually meet these people if you want. (By which I mean that I don't doubt that most, maybe all, of the stuff in the document can be demonstrated to be true).
As for your questions, cabin crew get a really bad deal/treatment from time to time (their overall lot is probably worse than that for the majority of pilots). With Engineers I know there is a lot of unhappiness, but I cannot personally comment with any accuracy on their situation. It is hard enough keeping up with the scams in your own little patch.
As for your questions, cabin crew get a really bad deal/treatment from time to time (their overall lot is probably worse than that for the majority of pilots). With Engineers I know there is a lot of unhappiness, but I cannot personally comment with any accuracy on their situation. It is hard enough keeping up with the scams in your own little patch.
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger
Some time, quite soon if there is a God in heaven, Mr O'leary and his appalling airline are going to run into serious trouble.
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I don't see how you guys leaving is going to help Ryanair go down the toilet. Last I heard there are something like 3,000 applications on file with CAE and SAS. That's 3,000 desparate wannabes aching to get their first jet job. If you guys leave (unless you leave by the hundreds which ain't gonna happen!), it won't hurt Ryanair one bit. What it definitely will do is make Ryanair's "approved" training organisations more richer. So start doing those things angry workers normally do......!EKIRTS
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Superpilot
That 3000 applications figure has been bandied about for a while now. Needless to say it comes from those who have a vested interest in keeping the current pilots on their toes by suggested there is someone else willing to do the job. Has anyone ever actually seen these alleged 3000 application? I doubt it. Do you really think it likely there are 3000 applications on file? No airline has that many, and FR is hardly the first choice for those job seeking.
But for arguments sake, let's say there are. But how many are actually suitable for airline employment? And how likely are the training department to be able to train so many, given the mess it is currently?
Also, most of the applicants to these schools are low timers. Not a whole lot of point in having all 200 hr FO's and no captains. There is an experience deficit in FR and 3000 new FO's wont make that go away in the short-medium term. Or even the long term, as they're not gonna get too many hours without a skipper to fly with em.
So in short, the whole issue of thousands of folk allegedly wanting into FR seems to me to be a management myth, created with the firm intention of spreading fear.
That'd be a good start.
That 3000 applications figure has been bandied about for a while now. Needless to say it comes from those who have a vested interest in keeping the current pilots on their toes by suggested there is someone else willing to do the job. Has anyone ever actually seen these alleged 3000 application? I doubt it. Do you really think it likely there are 3000 applications on file? No airline has that many, and FR is hardly the first choice for those job seeking.
But for arguments sake, let's say there are. But how many are actually suitable for airline employment? And how likely are the training department to be able to train so many, given the mess it is currently?
Also, most of the applicants to these schools are low timers. Not a whole lot of point in having all 200 hr FO's and no captains. There is an experience deficit in FR and 3000 new FO's wont make that go away in the short-medium term. Or even the long term, as they're not gonna get too many hours without a skipper to fly with em.
So in short, the whole issue of thousands of folk allegedly wanting into FR seems to me to be a management myth, created with the firm intention of spreading fear.
So start doing those things angry workers normally do......!
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Superpilot I remember MEMO from WB saying that there are hundreds of experienced pilots from SAS ,LOT , Malev , Volare et c on files . And where are all those pilots now?
I can believe that there are enough people on files ready to pay any money to become a pilot , but the idea of flying with some of them in the future make me feel uneasy .
I can believe that there are enough people on files ready to pay any money to become a pilot , but the idea of flying with some of them in the future make me feel uneasy .
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Originally Posted by Config
That's my job and mortgage you're talking about...
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Sadly BA are beginning to play this game too...
To a much lesser degree luckily, but it's the thin end of the wedge!
I flew recently with one of the new entry BA DEPs (on the new money purchase pension scheme which replaced NAPS) to find out that he had no idea what his pension arrangements would be until after he joined. He was told the company were still deciding what the new pension arrangements would be, but don't worry because "it will be a market leading arrangement".
Only after joining did he find out that he was not getting what he was promised.
I guess our managers have to stoop to MOL's tactics to compete (or would it be to improve their own bonuses?).
It's the 'trickle down' effect at work, except in this case it is the degradation of T&Cs that is trickling down.
I flew recently with one of the new entry BA DEPs (on the new money purchase pension scheme which replaced NAPS) to find out that he had no idea what his pension arrangements would be until after he joined. He was told the company were still deciding what the new pension arrangements would be, but don't worry because "it will be a market leading arrangement".
Only after joining did he find out that he was not getting what he was promised.
I guess our managers have to stoop to MOL's tactics to compete (or would it be to improve their own bonuses?).
It's the 'trickle down' effect at work, except in this case it is the degradation of T&Cs that is trickling down.
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Smoke, mirrors and a broken heart.
REPA is neither neutral in respect of the matter of representation for professional pilots, nor do we condone in any way some of the activities and dispositions for which Ryanair has become well known. That being said, Ryanair has a number of very positive employment aspects and, as has been frequently said, by and large Ryanair pilots are proud of their company and they certainly wish to see it continue to prosper and develop commercially. REPA shares this desire and agrees with those REPA members who point out that with appropriate changes to personnel policies it could rapidly become a fine organisation. What follows should be read in the light of these remarks.
The underlying model seems to be one of an almost purely market driven employee population in which “contractors” play a stabilising and controlling role.
in what appears to be an attempt to intimidate the faint of heart
but employs a low percentage of female pilots and the numbers are out of line with the industry norm.
The company is aggressively anti-union
This survey cannot be considered to have sufficient answers to be a completely reliable guide since the numbers voting (at the time of writing) was less than 10% of the Ryanair pilot population.
In addition, none of the essential elements for making a career are in place, notably pensions and other benefits.
Good points: prospect of early promotion for F/O’s, hard work, quick accrual of experience/hours, good pay, generally stable rosters, no night stops, leave arrangements maximising the combined value of leave and days off, rapid career advancement possible when events move satisfactorily, etc. Apart from its administration, the general consensus is that pilot training in Ryanair is practical, effective and pilot oriented.
Much as I ache to observe just how comprehensively you've sold your soul to the tabloid devil, Minuteman, you've failed to address the one thing that makes working for Ryanair the great experience it is, and the self same thing that frustrates your every attempt to spoil it. Ryanair is, and always has been, an airline of, by and for confident, self assured and proud individuals. There's nothing you can do that will ever change the fundament of that.
PPRuNe Person
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Ryanair is, and always has been, an airline of, by and for confident, self assured and proud individuals. There's nothing you can do that will ever change the fundament of that.
"confident, self assured and proud"? It appears from other threads that Ryanair values the reverse of these attributes in its pilot staff.
If Mr. Camel really wants to instill these values then perhaps he should cease:
1. Opposition to unions.
2. Apparent bullying behaviour.
3. Denigration by management (and Mr Camel) of anyone who disagrees with ryanair.
If Mr. Camel really wants to instill these values then perhaps he should cease:
1. Opposition to unions.
2. Apparent bullying behaviour.
3. Denigration by management (and Mr Camel) of anyone who disagrees with ryanair.
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Leo it took me a while to work out that minuteman has not posted here and then to twig that you mean that the document from which you quote is by minuteman. Right?
Two observations Leo. 1. It just does not look close to minuteman's form to me and 2. What an uncharacteristically poor response. In fact it reads as quite shallow in spots and one of the paragraphs was almost pitch perfect with the walk on part you were accorded in the little Shakespearian drama over on one of the other threads.
Leo you must try harder if you are to maintain the Ryanair standard. BTW have you any comments on the remarkable gulf between the guff quoted in Flight about the new roster proposal and the mini-rebellion amongst your line pilot colleagues? You did notice the reaction of your fellow pilots, did you not?
Two observations Leo. 1. It just does not look close to minuteman's form to me and 2. What an uncharacteristically poor response. In fact it reads as quite shallow in spots and one of the paragraphs was almost pitch perfect with the walk on part you were accorded in the little Shakespearian drama over on one of the other threads.
Leo you must try harder if you are to maintain the Ryanair standard. BTW have you any comments on the remarkable gulf between the guff quoted in Flight about the new roster proposal and the mini-rebellion amongst your line pilot colleagues? You did notice the reaction of your fellow pilots, did you not?
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It seems that the problem is with managment.
I don't know why someone would work in such an environment - I want to enjoy flying.
Saying that with the 8-10 hours PARC now offer before the SIM check I guess its an easy way in for people to get their first job. However, a large percentage of my friends who have gone there haven't even bothered applying for other jobs - and that I can't understand!
I don't know why someone would work in such an environment - I want to enjoy flying.
Saying that with the 8-10 hours PARC now offer before the SIM check I guess its an easy way in for people to get their first job. However, a large percentage of my friends who have gone there haven't even bothered applying for other jobs - and that I can't understand!
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Leo that was a really, really poor effort. You have obviously managed to escaped from your PR advisors again. No surprises that you did not deal with any inconvenient facts. I think we have all noticed that characteristic of your style before. But how unwise to betray the corporate stance, yet again, in ways that you probably don't even notice.
Also interesting that you attack two female pilots by name to justify an unstated corporate policy of the non-employment of female pilots. Both won cases under the law of the land. But of course the law is but a means to an end for you - and has little other meaning as far as you are concerned.
Re-read your post Leo. It is all attacks on people and ideas you don't like. No substance or engagement, just a desire to strike at those who have a different point of view. Without the fear factor I doubt you could even command a rowing boat.
Also interesting that you attack two female pilots by name to justify an unstated corporate policy of the non-employment of female pilots. Both won cases under the law of the land. But of course the law is but a means to an end for you - and has little other meaning as far as you are concerned.
Re-read your post Leo. It is all attacks on people and ideas you don't like. No substance or engagement, just a desire to strike at those who have a different point of view. Without the fear factor I doubt you could even command a rowing boat.
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What glorious obfuscation.
Sadly, you and I both know that those who share our profession and are as yet incapable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum (hello didimus) will swallow all this willingly. I take my hat off to you. What you really mean to say, of course, is that anyone having the self respect and clarity of forethought to manage their professional lives within the constraints of a prevailing system, rather than trying to reshape the void to fit themselves as you so bleakly advocate, is an example of leadership and inspiration best pilloried.
Leo you really must not forget to take your medication ever again.
Leo,
You do realise that your posts have EXACTLEY the opposite effect from that which you seem to be attempting, don't you?
You do realise that your posts have EXACTLEY the opposite effect from that which you seem to be attempting, don't you?
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Leo's Latin Grade => D-
Originally Posted by Leo Hairy-Camel
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Quad erat demonstrandum / what was asked to be demonstrated.
What is of a lot more relevance is the recent comments of the Head of Operations who stated that the pilot numbers are greater than the optimum 9 per aircraft.
I would like to see DOB do a QEF on 900 pilots, to use your own term - Horse****.
(By the way Leo, QEF - Quad erat faciendum / What was asked to be proven)
Giggsey
xx
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Oh dear Leo,
It was so nice to see that you are still alive an kicking. The sad thing is where are you kicking as it has been so silent......were you maybe kicking transatlantic dreams, or was a lady called barbera your sparring partner.
In reality Leo, you are right about your fear for the union, if you let them in they will eat you alive ad indeed that is a threat to FR.....but isn't that fact just the prove that you're FR management is all about squeezing as much as there is to squeeze? Therefore you just admit that FR is a shi... company for crew.
Objectively rosters are stable (900 hours and then you're off), money is good (if you are not ill or off)
The more I read your posts the more you start to sound like Hanibal Letcher, you must be an intresting person to meet one day!
Kisses from nicky
It was so nice to see that you are still alive an kicking. The sad thing is where are you kicking as it has been so silent......were you maybe kicking transatlantic dreams, or was a lady called barbera your sparring partner.
In reality Leo, you are right about your fear for the union, if you let them in they will eat you alive ad indeed that is a threat to FR.....but isn't that fact just the prove that you're FR management is all about squeezing as much as there is to squeeze? Therefore you just admit that FR is a shi... company for crew.
Objectively rosters are stable (900 hours and then you're off), money is good (if you are not ill or off)
The more I read your posts the more you start to sound like Hanibal Letcher, you must be an intresting person to meet one day!
Kisses from nicky
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Originally Posted by Gigginstown ERC
Leo my good friend, you are letting our Jesuit education down.
Quad erat demonstrandum / what was asked to be demonstrated.
What is of a lot more relevance is the recent comments of the Head of Operations who stated that the pilot numbers are greater than the optimum 9 per aircraft.
I would like to see DOB do a QEF on 900 pilots, to use your own term - Horse****.
(By the way Leo, QEF - Quad erat faciendum / What was asked to be proven)
Giggsey
xx
Quad erat demonstrandum / what was asked to be demonstrated.
What is of a lot more relevance is the recent comments of the Head of Operations who stated that the pilot numbers are greater than the optimum 9 per aircraft.
I would like to see DOB do a QEF on 900 pilots, to use your own term - Horse****.
(By the way Leo, QEF - Quad erat faciendum / What was asked to be proven)
Giggsey
xx
Vacillator Alarum
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I really do wonder about the intelligence levels of some posters on here. If you believe that Leo is Ryanair management or worse, MOL himself, then you need your heads examining.
Leo is, as he has often claimed, a line pilot. He may be based in a Teutonic land, not far from his beloved land of cuckoo clocks but he is probably very bitter at having twice been put out of work by rubbish airline management and a divided pilot group, no thanks to his type of rabid anti-unionism.
His typical brown-nosing of his upper management heroes is a trademark that set him aside from fellow pilots a few years ago. Now we have him back once again, using an anagram of the name of his current boss/hero airline owner. I'm sure I recognise his style. It is eerily similar to that of a poster on here who used the name of an airline owner of a now defunct Swiss carrier.
By taking his bait you are giving him life and more reason to post. His is a minority, but very vocal point of view designed, obviously quite successfully, to wind up a few of you into apoplectic fits of outrage. You are as bad as he is if you constantly keep chomping at the bait he dangles in front of you. Ignore it, move on. You slide a lot further on bullsh!t than you do on sandpaper. Do the same with your message otherwise you are just preaching to the choir.
Leo is, as he has often claimed, a line pilot. He may be based in a Teutonic land, not far from his beloved land of cuckoo clocks but he is probably very bitter at having twice been put out of work by rubbish airline management and a divided pilot group, no thanks to his type of rabid anti-unionism.
His typical brown-nosing of his upper management heroes is a trademark that set him aside from fellow pilots a few years ago. Now we have him back once again, using an anagram of the name of his current boss/hero airline owner. I'm sure I recognise his style. It is eerily similar to that of a poster on here who used the name of an airline owner of a now defunct Swiss carrier.
By taking his bait you are giving him life and more reason to post. His is a minority, but very vocal point of view designed, obviously quite successfully, to wind up a few of you into apoplectic fits of outrage. You are as bad as he is if you constantly keep chomping at the bait he dangles in front of you. Ignore it, move on. You slide a lot further on bullsh!t than you do on sandpaper. Do the same with your message otherwise you are just preaching to the choir.