TIME TO STOP PAYING
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Founder, You just dont get it do you!
If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy. Buying a type rating is short cutting all the hard working pilots out there ie. it is the lazy route and it undercuts everyone!
I didnt claim that:
I said a SEP instructor with 3000-4000 hours needs to ask the question why they have that much time and no airline job! It is probably their ability or the (sometimes deserved, somtimes not) reputation of an SEP instructor. This is not restricted to SEP instructors though. Some are good and some SEP are also crap!!
If your friend had got a light twin job at 1000 hours, light turbo job at 1500 and then flown in that role getting multi crew turbo time, he would be knocking on loads of doors without any hours and probably have a very good chance! From the sounds of it, he bought his chance and took the lazy mans option which UNDERCUTS OUR ENTIRE PROFESSION!! If he is as good as he claims, then his flying would have shown that. I have know idea as to why he had to do 3000 hours instructing before buying a type rating. Did he not want to fly a light twin or turbo? If he didnt, then in my opinion that is lazy!
In case you didnt read my last post. I went from SEP to MEP to an offer of a jet job with 0 JET HOURS EXPERIENCE & 0 TURBO EXPERIENCE! And I havent reached 1500 hours yet so I dont know where you get your information from. Easy and Ryan have both turned me down due to "lack of hours" but that is because I wont pay for their Type Rating or the ludicrous amounts of money for them to take my application seriously! People like you will and until you dont, I wont have a chance! Easy and Ryanair arent the only options out there though. You obviously think they probably are and you are so blind that you cant see what I am saying....
Start at the bottom. SEP, Bigger SEP, MEP VFR, MEP IFR, TURBO IFR, JET IFR. SIMPLE
IT TAKES HARD WORK and is a proven formula, Read Luke Sky Toddlers thread in wannabees! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174. Sometimes you get lucky and jump a step, sometimes you have to do it the hard way but if you dont do it the hard way, you wreck it for everyone!!!! If you want to get into a Beech King Air, then do what I did. It is completely wrong to suggest that you need 500 hours on type to get a B200 job! If you fly a light twin for 500-1000 hours then it is a natural progression onto an aircraft that size! Guess what, a jet is a natural progression from that!!!!!
Until you come up with a solid argument for buying a type rating, other than 'I can not be bothered to get good quality hours so I will just buy a type rating' which is what your argument is, you will continue to get slated by all the hard working pilots here!
Stop whinging, start working hard!
If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy. Buying a type rating is short cutting all the hard working pilots out there ie. it is the lazy route and it undercuts everyone!
I didnt claim that:
And I dont think my friend is lazy and you are a fool to call him that. He is now a F/O at RyanAir and he is also a damn good pilot
If your friend had got a light twin job at 1000 hours, light turbo job at 1500 and then flown in that role getting multi crew turbo time, he would be knocking on loads of doors without any hours and probably have a very good chance! From the sounds of it, he bought his chance and took the lazy mans option which UNDERCUTS OUR ENTIRE PROFESSION!! If he is as good as he claims, then his flying would have shown that. I have know idea as to why he had to do 3000 hours instructing before buying a type rating. Did he not want to fly a light twin or turbo? If he didnt, then in my opinion that is lazy!
In case you didnt read my last post. I went from SEP to MEP to an offer of a jet job with 0 JET HOURS EXPERIENCE & 0 TURBO EXPERIENCE! And I havent reached 1500 hours yet so I dont know where you get your information from. Easy and Ryan have both turned me down due to "lack of hours" but that is because I wont pay for their Type Rating or the ludicrous amounts of money for them to take my application seriously! People like you will and until you dont, I wont have a chance! Easy and Ryanair arent the only options out there though. You obviously think they probably are and you are so blind that you cant see what I am saying....
Start at the bottom. SEP, Bigger SEP, MEP VFR, MEP IFR, TURBO IFR, JET IFR. SIMPLE
IT TAKES HARD WORK and is a proven formula, Read Luke Sky Toddlers thread in wannabees! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174. Sometimes you get lucky and jump a step, sometimes you have to do it the hard way but if you dont do it the hard way, you wreck it for everyone!!!! If you want to get into a Beech King Air, then do what I did. It is completely wrong to suggest that you need 500 hours on type to get a B200 job! If you fly a light twin for 500-1000 hours then it is a natural progression onto an aircraft that size! Guess what, a jet is a natural progression from that!!!!!
Until you come up with a solid argument for buying a type rating, other than 'I can not be bothered to get good quality hours so I will just buy a type rating' which is what your argument is, you will continue to get slated by all the hard working pilots here!
Stop whinging, start working hard!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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One quick question: how many GA positions are there available today as compared to 10 years ago? How many FI(A)/MEP/B200/B1900 seats to be filled? Then compare it with the number of jet seats to be filled - 10 years ago and today.
I think you will find that on a European scale, the GA sector has slumped, while the LoCos have made the jet sector grow.
That means that from now on, there will be fewer and fewer of those who did it the hard way. Not that it's fair - I did my own stint in SEP/MEP/KingAirs and ATRs - but it's the only way that you can make up for the shortfall. When the LoCo sector is stabilised (in a few years time), the proportion of "hard workers" will grow again.
And don't forget, a lot of pilots are hired to airlines as BA, GB, BE, TC et al as cadets - but they don't pay for the typerating! So are these people jumping the queue as well? I think the two issues - of employing cadet pilots and paying for your own TR - need to be separated. You can have people with 250 hrs. flying the Bus with GB - and you can have 6000 hr. FIs paying their own TR to fly for EZ or FR. That does not imply that the Jerez-cadet in GB has jumped the queue - nor does it imply that the 6000 hr. FI was not good enough - he/she passed the skill test, the base training and the linecheck - so obviously they must be good enough to do the job, but maybe they were not so good at doing interwievs - and hey, we don't need people who are good at passing interwievs, we just need good airmen/women!
Empty
I think you will find that on a European scale, the GA sector has slumped, while the LoCos have made the jet sector grow.
That means that from now on, there will be fewer and fewer of those who did it the hard way. Not that it's fair - I did my own stint in SEP/MEP/KingAirs and ATRs - but it's the only way that you can make up for the shortfall. When the LoCo sector is stabilised (in a few years time), the proportion of "hard workers" will grow again.
And don't forget, a lot of pilots are hired to airlines as BA, GB, BE, TC et al as cadets - but they don't pay for the typerating! So are these people jumping the queue as well? I think the two issues - of employing cadet pilots and paying for your own TR - need to be separated. You can have people with 250 hrs. flying the Bus with GB - and you can have 6000 hr. FIs paying their own TR to fly for EZ or FR. That does not imply that the Jerez-cadet in GB has jumped the queue - nor does it imply that the 6000 hr. FI was not good enough - he/she passed the skill test, the base training and the linecheck - so obviously they must be good enough to do the job, but maybe they were not so good at doing interwievs - and hey, we don't need people who are good at passing interwievs, we just need good airmen/women!
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OSOP
Let me ask you a question.
You leave an integrated ATPL course with debts of 60k+ and you have been unable to secure any job flying for 3 months since you left. You then get offered a jet job with the terms that you must finance the TR and it is paid back to you over the first 3 years of employment. The bank is willing to loan you the money. If you don't take this there is a very real risk that if you are lucky you will lose your house. If you are unlucky you will declare bankruptcy. Now you talk about having a spine ...... what do you do??? Please make your answer believable. (ps - I am far from a poor soul crying actually .... money is a poor second to happiness.... see
)
My point is not to say you're wrong. It is not to say that anyone that pays for a TR is right. My point is that there is quite simply no choice if that person has an ounce of sense, and it is unfair to place all the blame here. It is also very sad that you refer to us as "hated", "make you sick" etc. You seem to have 2 arguments with paying for TR's and also lack of towing gliders etc. I have 12 years in this industry and just because I haven't flown tail draggers etc doesn't necessarily make me any less capable if doing my job. Is a cadet at BA or bmi in the same bracket because of their lack of "doing it the hard way"? It's like saying Wayne Rooney should have turned down Man Utd and waited for Aldershot to make their approach (no offence to Aldershot supporters!!). Yes in the perfect world he should but we live in a world of opportunity ... FACT!
As I have stated in an earlier post, I feel that paying for a TR is something that a governing body or organisation like BALPA or IALPA should be addressing, not financially crippled graduates cos no one will listen. I note that you have started a seperate thread saying exactly that ...... At the risk of upsetting your gut further I daren't say you are agreeing with me
I know you won't suddenly agree and I won't be argueing with you but reality isn't necessarily what we would wish it to be. As regards to bonding, it is fact that they are not legally binding.
Now ... i'm off to take cover
Let me ask you a question.
You leave an integrated ATPL course with debts of 60k+ and you have been unable to secure any job flying for 3 months since you left. You then get offered a jet job with the terms that you must finance the TR and it is paid back to you over the first 3 years of employment. The bank is willing to loan you the money. If you don't take this there is a very real risk that if you are lucky you will lose your house. If you are unlucky you will declare bankruptcy. Now you talk about having a spine ...... what do you do??? Please make your answer believable. (ps - I am far from a poor soul crying actually .... money is a poor second to happiness.... see
)My point is not to say you're wrong. It is not to say that anyone that pays for a TR is right. My point is that there is quite simply no choice if that person has an ounce of sense, and it is unfair to place all the blame here. It is also very sad that you refer to us as "hated", "make you sick" etc. You seem to have 2 arguments with paying for TR's and also lack of towing gliders etc. I have 12 years in this industry and just because I haven't flown tail draggers etc doesn't necessarily make me any less capable if doing my job. Is a cadet at BA or bmi in the same bracket because of their lack of "doing it the hard way"? It's like saying Wayne Rooney should have turned down Man Utd and waited for Aldershot to make their approach (no offence to Aldershot supporters!!). Yes in the perfect world he should but we live in a world of opportunity ... FACT!
As I have stated in an earlier post, I feel that paying for a TR is something that a governing body or organisation like BALPA or IALPA should be addressing, not financially crippled graduates cos no one will listen. I note that you have started a seperate thread saying exactly that ...... At the risk of upsetting your gut further I daren't say you are agreeing with me
I know you won't suddenly agree and I won't be argueing with you but reality isn't necessarily what we would wish it to be. As regards to bonding, it is fact that they are not legally binding.
Now ... i'm off to take cover
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
Founder, You just dont get it do you!
If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy.
I didnt claim that:
In case you didnt read my last post. I went from SEP to MEP to an offer of a jet job with 0 JET HOURS EXPERIENCE & 0 TURBO EXPERIENCE! And I havent reached 1500 hours yet so I dont know where you get your information from. Easy and Ryan have both turned me down due to "lack of hours" but that is because I wont pay for their Type Rating or the ludicrous amounts of money for them to take my application seriously! People like you will and until you dont, I wont have a chance! Easy and Ryanair arent the only options out there though. You obviously think they probably are and you are so blind that you cant see what I am saying....
Start at the bottom. SEP, Bigger SEP, MEP VFR, MEP IFR, TURBO IFR, JET IFR. SIMPLE
IT TAKES HARD WORK and is a proven formula, Read Luke Sky Toddlers thread in wannabees! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174. Sometimes you get lucky and jump a step, sometimes you have to do it the hard way but if you dont do it the hard way, you wreck it for everyone!!!! If you want to get into a Beech King Air, then do what I did. It is completely wrong to suggest that you need 500 hours on type to get a B200 job! If you fly a light twin for 500-1000 hours then it is a natural progression onto an aircraft that size! Guess what, a jet is a natural progression from that!!!!!
If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy.
I didnt claim that:
In case you didnt read my last post. I went from SEP to MEP to an offer of a jet job with 0 JET HOURS EXPERIENCE & 0 TURBO EXPERIENCE! And I havent reached 1500 hours yet so I dont know where you get your information from. Easy and Ryan have both turned me down due to "lack of hours" but that is because I wont pay for their Type Rating or the ludicrous amounts of money for them to take my application seriously! People like you will and until you dont, I wont have a chance! Easy and Ryanair arent the only options out there though. You obviously think they probably are and you are so blind that you cant see what I am saying....
Start at the bottom. SEP, Bigger SEP, MEP VFR, MEP IFR, TURBO IFR, JET IFR. SIMPLE
IT TAKES HARD WORK and is a proven formula, Read Luke Sky Toddlers thread in wannabees! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174. Sometimes you get lucky and jump a step, sometimes you have to do it the hard way but if you dont do it the hard way, you wreck it for everyone!!!! If you want to get into a Beech King Air, then do what I did. It is completely wrong to suggest that you need 500 hours on type to get a B200 job! If you fly a light twin for 500-1000 hours then it is a natural progression onto an aircraft that size! Guess what, a jet is a natural progression from that!!!!!
Can you tell me how many companies fly MEP aircrafts today? I bet there aren't a lot of them... and if there are, most of them are probably thinking about changing them to TP's since most larger airports doesn't even provide 100LL anymore...
In Sweden all MEP aircraft companies are dead or dying, the only one's who fly MEP's today are flightschools and pilots who own them and use them for personal flights...
Look at all ad's where companies are looking for pilots, it never sais that you need 1500 hours MEP, sometimes it sais that you need 2000 hours of total time. But it almost always sais that you need at least 500 hours on the type. This means that if the company is flying a B200 for example you need to have a type-rating and at least 500 hours on that machine to be able to get a job.
Look at a company called dragonfly for example "http://www.dragonflyac.com/" they had an ad in flight international a couple of months ago where it states that they are looking for pilots, they required at least that you funded your own type-rating in order to fly with them.
Subscribe to flight internationals job newsletters, you'll get at least 5-10 per week with lots of pilot jobs, and a couple of them are Turbo-Propp based jobs, but all have one thing in common, at least 500 hours on type and/or that you have a type-rating on the aircraft that you're going to fly if you get the job.
"If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy." Everyone knows this. But the market is rough my friend and there isn't a lot of opitions for a new pilot to get ahead with his career.
Like I said in my first post, I would love to get a type-rating for free, but there isn't any way to get it today...
I regret that the market is the way it is. I would love to build my career the way you are doing it, but the fact is that you are one of the lucky few who get to do it that way...
I'd like to wish you good luck on finding your dream job... I do hope you get it without having to pay for a TR.
Best Regards
/Tim
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You had the choice...
Founder, I appreciate your comments but the work is there if you are prepared to look for it. I am not saying you arent. From your tone you may be one of the ones who is. The majority of people arre not prepared to look for the work (by buying a type rating) and therefore have few options left. Probably because they didnt do their homework properly, spent too much on training in the first place and realised that this industry is tough. It is however not as tough as you or others make it out to be!
EC, Some good points.
Jet2, My point has been missed completely. I am not saying that a certain route is better or worse in terms of ability to do a job. My ability may be just as good as the crackshot 200 hour pilot, then again, it may not, that is not the argument!
The integrated subject you bring up is also a completely different subject!
I will not debate the benefits of either course. The debate here started with the topic, time to stop paying for type ratings. A pilots choice to graduate from an integrated course with £60,000+ debts is his/her own choice.
A pilot has the choice, spend £30,000 on a modular course. Do a few years hard flying. Earn a respectable living and then move into the airlines with a salary and benefits package unrivaled in most sectors
OR....
Listen to an Integrated courses 'spiel'. Spend £60,000. Leave themselves no options, be forced to do a type rating as no one will take them on and then work for next to nothing because they are so desperate to get flying and earning something just so their house DOESNT get taken and they DONT go bankrupt. Meanwhile, not realising that when they take the job for minimal pay (after agreeing to take on more debit to be able to line train) they are making things worse for their colleagues. And then when they have paid off their £60,000 debt and finally a house, they realise they have no pension! Guess what. They got shafted and while they did that, so did their colleauges who didnt make dumb decisions! Why should I get penalised!
ACP,
I have just told Founder how to 'do it' without getting a type rating and without sh
ting on both his own and all his colleagues door. His "right vision" as you put it is going to cost himself, you, me and everyone else very dearly my friend! Your attack on my character is completely unwarranted. I have not heard a solid argument for your 'teams' defence!
ACP (and every other person thinking of self funding a TR) I challenge you to this...
Have you looked at the ppjn website under 'small operators'. Thats where I got my first job. I guess by the tone of your post that you are in the "I will happily buy a type rating and help to lower both myself and my colleagues T's and C's" camp and therefore, probably havent. If you couldnt find a job in those pages, ask your self why not! The answer is not because they arent there. They are and with the growing industry there are even more for you to jump into!
EC, Some good points.
Jet2, My point has been missed completely. I am not saying that a certain route is better or worse in terms of ability to do a job. My ability may be just as good as the crackshot 200 hour pilot, then again, it may not, that is not the argument!
The integrated subject you bring up is also a completely different subject!
I will not debate the benefits of either course. The debate here started with the topic, time to stop paying for type ratings. A pilots choice to graduate from an integrated course with £60,000+ debts is his/her own choice.
A pilot has the choice, spend £30,000 on a modular course. Do a few years hard flying. Earn a respectable living and then move into the airlines with a salary and benefits package unrivaled in most sectors
OR....
Listen to an Integrated courses 'spiel'. Spend £60,000. Leave themselves no options, be forced to do a type rating as no one will take them on and then work for next to nothing because they are so desperate to get flying and earning something just so their house DOESNT get taken and they DONT go bankrupt. Meanwhile, not realising that when they take the job for minimal pay (after agreeing to take on more debit to be able to line train) they are making things worse for their colleagues. And then when they have paid off their £60,000 debt and finally a house, they realise they have no pension! Guess what. They got shafted and while they did that, so did their colleauges who didnt make dumb decisions! Why should I get penalised!
ACP,
I have just told Founder how to 'do it' without getting a type rating and without sh
ting on both his own and all his colleagues door. His "right vision" as you put it is going to cost himself, you, me and everyone else very dearly my friend! Your attack on my character is completely unwarranted. I have not heard a solid argument for your 'teams' defence!ACP (and every other person thinking of self funding a TR) I challenge you to this...
Have you looked at the ppjn website under 'small operators'. Thats where I got my first job. I guess by the tone of your post that you are in the "I will happily buy a type rating and help to lower both myself and my colleagues T's and C's" camp and therefore, probably havent. If you couldnt find a job in those pages, ask your self why not! The answer is not because they arent there. They are and with the growing industry there are even more for you to jump into!
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On Speed Profile and followers:
HERES A QUESTION FOR YOU :
1) How can a young male or female who has just completed an intergrated ATPL course survive on poor wages going the hard way and then try to pay off huge debts they have incurred from training with no rich daddy to help them ? ?
On Speed Profile I admire you greatly for going the hard way and you deserve lots of credit. Going the hard way is the best way but it just does not make sense anymore! While the upsides of going the hard way are good the downsides are hard to deal with in todays world.
HERES A QUESTION FOR YOU :
1) How can a young male or female who has just completed an intergrated ATPL course survive on poor wages going the hard way and then try to pay off huge debts they have incurred from training with no rich daddy to help them ? ?
On Speed Profile I admire you greatly for going the hard way and you deserve lots of credit. Going the hard way is the best way but it just does not make sense anymore! While the upsides of going the hard way are good the downsides are hard to deal with in todays world.
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ryanride, I am not out after any credit but thanks for giving it! As for your your hypothetical question. I would sympathise with either boy or girl in that situation. The truth is, they probably shouldnt have got themselves into that situation in the first place and spent the money they did have wisely and not put themselves in the situation where they had to sell their soul to the devil (read: unneccessarily expensive FTO's, LO-CO airlines and TR providers). When they made the decision to get themselves into so much debt that they couldnt afford repayments on a GA job or any other jobs salary, they gave the go ahead to the airlines to say "how badly do you want this job, what will you do to get it" and subsequently, we are watching terms and conditions in all airlines fall rapidly. That boy or girl will never get paid what they are worth as long as they have their soul subject to a mortgage! I hope that hypothetical boy or girl gets a break soon!
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OSOP,
I already have a job, I am flying A321s in SE Asia. I paid my own A320 type rating and you know what...I have also paid my first 300 hours on type, another 30000$. If you don't like it, it doesn't matter to me.
I have been fully hired by the same airline at the end of my line check and now I am paid and I do not regret, that was my best decisions so far.
Please stop saying that it is underminig the industry, don't you see the number of new airlines, don't you see that they are short of (qualified) pilots?
hey, if you couldnt find a jet job, ask your self why not!!!
ACP (and every other person thinking of self funding a TR) I challenge you to this...
Have you looked at the ppjn website under 'small operators'. Thats where I got my first job. I guess by the tone of your post that you are in the "I will happily buy a type rating and help to lower both myself and my colleagues T's and C's" camp and therefore, probably havent. If you couldnt find a job in those pages, ask your self why not!
Have you looked at the ppjn website under 'small operators'. Thats where I got my first job. I guess by the tone of your post that you are in the "I will happily buy a type rating and help to lower both myself and my colleagues T's and C's" camp and therefore, probably havent. If you couldnt find a job in those pages, ask your self why not!
I have been fully hired by the same airline at the end of my line check and now I am paid and I do not regret, that was my best decisions so far.
Please stop saying that it is underminig the industry, don't you see the number of new airlines, don't you see that they are short of (qualified) pilots?
hey, if you couldnt find a jet job, ask your self why not!!!
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It seems that the JAR medical requirments dont go far enough with regards to VISION!
ACP, congratulations!!
Congratulations on helping to reduce our Ts And C's and congratulations on wasting a heap of money. If you read my posts carefully you would see that I have turned one jet job down and have just passed a sim ride for another so I have no need to ask why I havent got a job flying jets! If you were smart you would realise this. The more people that do what you have done there are, the less money you get paid in the long term! And the longer it takes to pay of those horrendously massive debts that people are getting now days!
ryanride,
www.ppjn.com . mate if you have the attitude to actually look at this page then you have the attitude for the companies posted on it. good luck! Personal visits way in heavily with all these companies!!!
ACP, congratulations!!
Congratulations on helping to reduce our Ts And C's and congratulations on wasting a heap of money. If you read my posts carefully you would see that I have turned one jet job down and have just passed a sim ride for another so I have no need to ask why I havent got a job flying jets! If you were smart you would realise this. The more people that do what you have done there are, the less money you get paid in the long term! And the longer it takes to pay of those horrendously massive debts that people are getting now days!
ryanride,
www.ppjn.com . mate if you have the attitude to actually look at this page then you have the attitude for the companies posted on it. good luck! Personal visits way in heavily with all these companies!!!
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I think the big problem is finacial for new pilots. Both integrated and modular training costs a great deal of money and very few of those who train don't take up a loan with a house as seccurity or some other type of loan. All new pilots want to get a job which makes them able to in some way pay off their debt, and the fastet way to do this is to fund a type-rating and start working at perhaps ryan or easy...
Like you said On speed on profile, there might be a lot of jobs out there with small companies but the problem is there aren't enough jobs for all pilots and most of the jobs doesnt pay enough money. And like I said about the MEP range it's most likly going to die. There aren't a lot of airports who are going to accept aircrafts driven by 100 LL anymore because it's a big expence for them as well...
As seen from the website there are a lot of companies in the UK who seams to be operating smaller aircrafts but this is uniqe to the UK I belive. I dont know of any operators in the entire scandinavian region who operate anything smaller than a twin turbo-propp.
If anyone knows of any companies who do operate MEP's anywhere else in the EU please post let us know...
Like you said On speed on profile, there might be a lot of jobs out there with small companies but the problem is there aren't enough jobs for all pilots and most of the jobs doesnt pay enough money. And like I said about the MEP range it's most likly going to die. There aren't a lot of airports who are going to accept aircrafts driven by 100 LL anymore because it's a big expence for them as well...
As seen from the website there are a lot of companies in the UK who seams to be operating smaller aircrafts but this is uniqe to the UK I belive. I dont know of any operators in the entire scandinavian region who operate anything smaller than a twin turbo-propp.
If anyone knows of any companies who do operate MEP's anywhere else in the EU please post let us know...
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
ryanride, I am not out after any credit but thanks for giving it! As for your your hypothetical question. I would sympathise with either boy or girl in that situation. The truth is, they probably shouldnt have got themselves into that situation in the first place and spent the money they did have wisely and not put themselves in the situation where they had to sell their soul to the devil (read: unneccessarily expensive FTO's, LO-CO airlines and TR providers). When they made the decision to get themselves into so much debt that they couldnt afford repayments on a GA job or any other jobs salary, they gave the go ahead to the airlines to say "how badly do you want this job, what will you do to get it" and subsequently, we are watching terms and conditions in all airlines fall rapidly. That boy or girl will never get paid what they are worth as long as they have their soul subject to a mortgage! I hope that hypothetical boy or girl gets a break soon!
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I dont know of any other way to get an ATPL/CPL than to go to a training organisation and they all charge at least 50'000 euro's for all the training up to ATPL with 250 hours and commercial certificate. What other way is there?
If you seriously went ahead and spent €50k on an integrated course without researching the alternatives, in fact without even finding out if there were alternatives, your suitability to be let fly heavy metal is seriously in doubt.
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Funding Type-Ratin vs Not funding Type-Rating
Look close at these numbers:
Cost of living
1000 euro/month x 12 = 12'000 Euro
Lets say you fly SEP's as an instructors and MEP's as a halftime job with a taxi company.
You'll earn about 25 Euro/hour doing instructing and perhaps 50 euro/hour flying taxi. Lets say you fly 20 hours as an instructor per month (this is optimistic due to weather) you'll earn 25 x 20 = 500 E/month. Lets say you'll fly another 15 hours per month as a taxi flight pilot 15 x 50 = 750 E/month. In Sweden we've got a 33% tax so that leaves you with 750 + 500 = 1250 x 0,67 = 837,5 E left. That doesnt even cover the cost of living. So to add the extra money you take up another job. And what other job would have the flexibility of you working there when not working as a pilot. None...
Now you might be lucky and get to fly a lot during the summer but I know that the instructors that the school where I'm studying hasn't flown more than 20 hours since october... and financially they're still living with mom or have a very nice girlfriend who pay's a lot of the bills...
This situation is not acceptable, not for me and certanly not for the bank where I have most of my debt. And there is no other way of getting a complete training other than paying for it with a loan and the getting an airline job as fast as possible.
Now look at this:
You pay 50'000 E for an ATPL license and 250 hours to add to that. You pay another 25'000 for a type-rating, you pay another 30'000 E for line-training.
50'000 + 25'000 + 30'000 = 105'000 E And still you have to count in the costs of living during the time you study, that's another 20'000 E.
105'000 + 20'000 = 125'000 Euro.
Lets say you get a job at EasyJet flying Airbus aircraft which pays 4250 Euro/month (33060 pounds/year)
At this rate you'll pay off your debt with 2500 Euro/month
125'000/2500 = 50 months (4,1 years) in which time you will have flown 3750 hours (900/year) if you're lucky =)
To sum all of this up, after aprox 4 years:
Not paying for a TR
50'000 Euros in debt with an income of 837,5 e/m flying 35 h/m, 1750 hours on SEP/MEP aircraft.
Pay for a TR
No debt, income of 4250 E/m, 75h/m, 3750 hours of ME Jet
Now these figures may differ a bit and are on both sides optimistic. But here's is at least a guideline to why I'm paying for my type-rating first chanse I get...
Best Regards
/T
Look close at these numbers:
Cost of living
1000 euro/month x 12 = 12'000 Euro
Lets say you fly SEP's as an instructors and MEP's as a halftime job with a taxi company.
You'll earn about 25 Euro/hour doing instructing and perhaps 50 euro/hour flying taxi. Lets say you fly 20 hours as an instructor per month (this is optimistic due to weather) you'll earn 25 x 20 = 500 E/month. Lets say you'll fly another 15 hours per month as a taxi flight pilot 15 x 50 = 750 E/month. In Sweden we've got a 33% tax so that leaves you with 750 + 500 = 1250 x 0,67 = 837,5 E left. That doesnt even cover the cost of living. So to add the extra money you take up another job. And what other job would have the flexibility of you working there when not working as a pilot. None...
Now you might be lucky and get to fly a lot during the summer but I know that the instructors that the school where I'm studying hasn't flown more than 20 hours since october... and financially they're still living with mom or have a very nice girlfriend who pay's a lot of the bills...
This situation is not acceptable, not for me and certanly not for the bank where I have most of my debt. And there is no other way of getting a complete training other than paying for it with a loan and the getting an airline job as fast as possible.
Now look at this:
You pay 50'000 E for an ATPL license and 250 hours to add to that. You pay another 25'000 for a type-rating, you pay another 30'000 E for line-training.
50'000 + 25'000 + 30'000 = 105'000 E And still you have to count in the costs of living during the time you study, that's another 20'000 E.
105'000 + 20'000 = 125'000 Euro.
Lets say you get a job at EasyJet flying Airbus aircraft which pays 4250 Euro/month (33060 pounds/year)
At this rate you'll pay off your debt with 2500 Euro/month
125'000/2500 = 50 months (4,1 years) in which time you will have flown 3750 hours (900/year) if you're lucky =)
To sum all of this up, after aprox 4 years:
Not paying for a TR
50'000 Euros in debt with an income of 837,5 e/m flying 35 h/m, 1750 hours on SEP/MEP aircraft.
Pay for a TR
No debt, income of 4250 E/m, 75h/m, 3750 hours of ME Jet
Now these figures may differ a bit and are on both sides optimistic. But here's is at least a guideline to why I'm paying for my type-rating first chanse I get...
Best Regards
/T
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Originally Posted by CamelhAir
Mate, I want to believe this post is tongue in cheek. However, in light of your previous posts I'm not too sure.
If you seriously went ahead and spent €50k on an integrated course without researching the alternatives, in fact without even finding out if there were alternatives, your suitability to be let fly heavy metal is seriously in doubt.
If you seriously went ahead and spent €50k on an integrated course without researching the alternatives, in fact without even finding out if there were alternatives, your suitability to be let fly heavy metal is seriously in doubt.
If you know of any other way then tell me where I would be able to get a full ATPL training with 250 hours within 2,5 years...? And my training wasn't integrated, it was modular...
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
Meanwhile, not realising that when they take the job for minimal pay (after agreeing to take on more debit to be able to line train)
Originally Posted by On speed on profile
And then when they have paid off their £60,000 debt and finally a house, they realise they have no pension!
As I said ...I am not going to argue. There are an ever reducing number of GA jobs and more and more jet jobs available to newbies. I agree with the principal of what you say as paying for a TR when you have already spent thousands obtaining a licence is absurd and it's exploitation. But the industry has changed and it won't change back because every wanabee "grows a spine" and takes your route. This is reality, it's fact. Blaming people for taking opportunity that is best for them is misguided. Everyone's circumstance is different.
I wish you good luck with your career.
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Hey, have you guys thought of alternative C) - DONT COME INTO THE INDUSTRY AT ALL!
For goodness sake look around you - SAS say they can employ pilots from across the Baltic for less than a third of what they pay their own now, BA is looking at a pay cut of circa 40% for its pilots if either of its plans of ending or career averaging pensions comes about. More and more airlines end up with their new FO's PAYING THEM to get line experience.
This is going to HAVE toi end up with airlines crewed by employees from VERY LOW cost countries indeed - think former Soviet Union, Jugoslavia, Indian sub-continent. Its just like the shipping industry - most ships are crewed by Taiwanese, Malays, Philippinos etc etc AS WAGES IN THESE COUNTRIES ARE VERY LOW. There is no other way.
And then we will have the problems the shipping industry has had - repetitive hull lossses. The bell at Lloyds rings for every loss - it rang every day for many years I am told. Countries will have to use "flags of convenience" wherever possible just to survive. They will be "convenient" because they are cheap and they will be cheap because their oversight is limited or nil, and so consequently costs less to be registered with. Its ALREADY here. No-one can seriously argue that the IAA rivals the CAA for thoroughness and oversight - so could that be why Ryanair has all its airliners registered there?
And what kind of life will you have when you get to your coveted jet job? Have you flown 900 hours a year longhaul or worse shorthaul year in year out for a potential thirty year career? You wont live to see it out! You wont have a family life, or indeed a life at all outside work!
I been in this industry all my working life and I have never seen cost pressures like I see now. It WILL get worse - how long before the next oil shock? Iran anyone? What hapens after another 9/11 style event, should it occur? Bird flu jumps the species gap and we have SARS mark II in Europe? Companies can not justify the investment made in them with returns as they are. the ONLY one who does is Ryan - that IS the future for all of us and most companies are looking at their methodology and thinking - that is the way we will HAVE to go.
I am THE worst paid of ALL my contempories by a very long way, and I fly a wide body with a major airline.
If you have the stamina, willpower and wit to qualify to fly an airliner there are many other careers you could do and i suggest now might just be the time to investigate them.
Things in professional aviaition will only improve when the costs cycle goes full circle:
Example: BP.
BP went "foreign flag" with all of its tanker capacity at sea. The whole industry did. Then the losses mounted - Exxon Valdeze, the tankers along the Brittany coastline who ran aground and broke up. The insurers were crucified. THEY eventually demanded a return to flags of registration where standards including deck officer pay were set and met. How long have you got in your potential flying career before the wheel goes full circle in professional aviation and the same cycle occurs here too?
You can hire a Pitts, Stampe or Cesnna Aerobat on a sunny day and fly. It might be better to sit this one out and get a job where you come home at night and watch your kids grow up and prosper. The airline business is one in cyclical decline and there is much worse to come yet. Do you really want to join this? The sort of institutionalised bullying that constitutes one of the keys to Ryanairs "success" is going to become routine throughout the industry if anyone is to compete with them. Who would willingly get themselves into this?
For goodness sake look around you - SAS say they can employ pilots from across the Baltic for less than a third of what they pay their own now, BA is looking at a pay cut of circa 40% for its pilots if either of its plans of ending or career averaging pensions comes about. More and more airlines end up with their new FO's PAYING THEM to get line experience.
This is going to HAVE toi end up with airlines crewed by employees from VERY LOW cost countries indeed - think former Soviet Union, Jugoslavia, Indian sub-continent. Its just like the shipping industry - most ships are crewed by Taiwanese, Malays, Philippinos etc etc AS WAGES IN THESE COUNTRIES ARE VERY LOW. There is no other way.
And then we will have the problems the shipping industry has had - repetitive hull lossses. The bell at Lloyds rings for every loss - it rang every day for many years I am told. Countries will have to use "flags of convenience" wherever possible just to survive. They will be "convenient" because they are cheap and they will be cheap because their oversight is limited or nil, and so consequently costs less to be registered with. Its ALREADY here. No-one can seriously argue that the IAA rivals the CAA for thoroughness and oversight - so could that be why Ryanair has all its airliners registered there?
And what kind of life will you have when you get to your coveted jet job? Have you flown 900 hours a year longhaul or worse shorthaul year in year out for a potential thirty year career? You wont live to see it out! You wont have a family life, or indeed a life at all outside work!
I been in this industry all my working life and I have never seen cost pressures like I see now. It WILL get worse - how long before the next oil shock? Iran anyone? What hapens after another 9/11 style event, should it occur? Bird flu jumps the species gap and we have SARS mark II in Europe? Companies can not justify the investment made in them with returns as they are. the ONLY one who does is Ryan - that IS the future for all of us and most companies are looking at their methodology and thinking - that is the way we will HAVE to go.
I am THE worst paid of ALL my contempories by a very long way, and I fly a wide body with a major airline.
If you have the stamina, willpower and wit to qualify to fly an airliner there are many other careers you could do and i suggest now might just be the time to investigate them.
Things in professional aviaition will only improve when the costs cycle goes full circle:
Example: BP.
BP went "foreign flag" with all of its tanker capacity at sea. The whole industry did. Then the losses mounted - Exxon Valdeze, the tankers along the Brittany coastline who ran aground and broke up. The insurers were crucified. THEY eventually demanded a return to flags of registration where standards including deck officer pay were set and met. How long have you got in your potential flying career before the wheel goes full circle in professional aviation and the same cycle occurs here too?
You can hire a Pitts, Stampe or Cesnna Aerobat on a sunny day and fly. It might be better to sit this one out and get a job where you come home at night and watch your kids grow up and prosper. The airline business is one in cyclical decline and there is much worse to come yet. Do you really want to join this? The sort of institutionalised bullying that constitutes one of the keys to Ryanairs "success" is going to become routine throughout the industry if anyone is to compete with them. Who would willingly get themselves into this?
Last edited by ShortfinalFred; 7th Mar 2006 at 18:00.
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ShortfinalFred: you are right...
But the only way to prevent the same thing happening to the airline industry as what happened to the shipping industry are clear and common rules of conduct for pilots and airlines.
The aviation world is not going to accept aircrafts falling out of the sky too often because of bad training or stressed out pilots. I'm not too affraid of that.
If there would be a major aircrash in europe every month, people would stop flying at the same amout that they are now. And if this would be because of the crew, this would lead to some serious regulation changes and in order to continue flying the airlines would have to adapt to those new rules...
The rules are already hard on airline budgets and companies like Ryan are pushing the rules to their limits. This is ok, as long as no accidents happen...
But the only way to prevent the same thing happening to the airline industry as what happened to the shipping industry are clear and common rules of conduct for pilots and airlines.
The aviation world is not going to accept aircrafts falling out of the sky too often because of bad training or stressed out pilots. I'm not too affraid of that.
If there would be a major aircrash in europe every month, people would stop flying at the same amout that they are now. And if this would be because of the crew, this would lead to some serious regulation changes and in order to continue flying the airlines would have to adapt to those new rules...
The rules are already hard on airline budgets and companies like Ryan are pushing the rules to their limits. This is ok, as long as no accidents happen...