BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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I don't believe it matters a jot whether there is seniority or not. Pure supply and demand are the only things affecting our industry's T&Cs now. Thatcher's market economy still rules, I guess.
When there is a shortage of pilots, things will improve.
There has been a glut of pilots since about 1992; things were just about to get better when 911 happened
, but it can't be far away now. 
Whether it will last long enough for us to claw back the terrible losses of the last 15 years or so, whilst the employers had it almost all their own way, who knows?
When there is a shortage of pilots, things will improve.
There has been a glut of pilots since about 1992; things were just about to get better when 911 happened
, but it can't be far away now. Whether it will last long enough for us to claw back the terrible losses of the last 15 years or so, whilst the employers had it almost all their own way, who knows?
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DarkStar,
I'm a bit confused about your posting ref the Canadian slip and the 'general feeling' that 'we' won't strike.
If on a night stop I were to ask my fellow pilot what he / she thinks I would not represent it as 'the general view' - just 'a' view to add to the many other unmemorable nightstops I have done since this question arose.
How many pilots were included in this mini survey?
Who exactly is included in your 'we' ? Pilots / cabin crew / both ?
Which are you ?
Just wondering.
I'm a bit confused about your posting ref the Canadian slip and the 'general feeling' that 'we' won't strike.
If on a night stop I were to ask my fellow pilot what he / she thinks I would not represent it as 'the general view' - just 'a' view to add to the many other unmemorable nightstops I have done since this question arose.
How many pilots were included in this mini survey?
Who exactly is included in your 'we' ? Pilots / cabin crew / both ?
Which are you ?
Just wondering.
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I certainly won't be striking!! For two reasons, one: I can't afford to be without pay for than a couple of days.... two: I have no interest in the NAPS pension as I am a BARP member and the extra couple of percent that BA may end up contributing after a strike will not make a big difference to me, so why take the risk.
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AH,
Fair enough, I suppose. However, if BA introduce a Career Average scheme in place of NAPS, as surely as night follows day they will flatten the pay scales out for everyone. If you think BARPS is cr@p now, just you wait.
Fair enough, I suppose. However, if BA introduce a Career Average scheme in place of NAPS, as surely as night follows day they will flatten the pay scales out for everyone. If you think BARPS is cr@p now, just you wait.
Paxing All Over The World
On the BBC this evening.
So it will already be on the public Agenda. The question is - where will their sympathies lie?
[British] Public sector faces mass walkout. More than a million local government workers are to be balloted for strike action over planned pension changes.
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Leander - of course I can only speak for the few (about 10 or so) fellow FC whilst the thread has been on Pprune, and yes, I've spoken to CC and LHR groundstaff - all in NAPS 
. I suppose I feel trapped between a rock and hard place over this situation. I do believe that there will be a lot of posturing before an agreement finally comes into place, just in the nick of time, but at who's cost?
I don't believe the general public understand what's at stake for many of us and yes one day soon the demand for FC will increase mainly by increasing numbers of Lo-Co's but the final salary schemes of yesteryear are just that - gone so any new pilots who join these start-ups are going to face poor pensions as well as poorer T & C's.
Difficult times ahead...
. I suppose I feel trapped between a rock and hard place over this situation. I do believe that there will be a lot of posturing before an agreement finally comes into place, just in the nick of time, but at who's cost? I don't believe the general public understand what's at stake for many of us and yes one day soon the demand for FC will increase mainly by increasing numbers of Lo-Co's but the final salary schemes of yesteryear are just that - gone so any new pilots who join these start-ups are going to face poor pensions as well as poorer T & C's.
Difficult times ahead...
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DarkStar
As a member of the BA-flying general public whose T&Cs (especially wrt pensions) are subject to very similar adjustment, no, we don't understand!! Empathise maybe; but if the working populace followed some of the proposals on this thread, the entire country would be on strike. And as for the civil servants!
We are all faced with the same impending changes in lifestyle brought about by new global demographic/economic conditions. In this climate, striking to ensure the best possible T&Cs is ultimately harmful to everyone, whatever your occupation - there are more subtle ways of easing the pain. But pain there will be, and some will suffer more than others. The general public will probably regard BA FC as others.
As a member of the BA-flying general public whose T&Cs (especially wrt pensions) are subject to very similar adjustment, no, we don't understand!! Empathise maybe; but if the working populace followed some of the proposals on this thread, the entire country would be on strike. And as for the civil servants!
We are all faced with the same impending changes in lifestyle brought about by new global demographic/economic conditions. In this climate, striking to ensure the best possible T&Cs is ultimately harmful to everyone, whatever your occupation - there are more subtle ways of easing the pain. But pain there will be, and some will suffer more than others. The general public will probably regard BA FC as others.
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The general public are entitled and welcome to any view they may chose.
Whether you fly Virgin / BM every day, or just on the day of a pre-warned official BALPA / BA strike, is entirely your perogative - it has nothing to do with my resistance to BA's intended changes to my contract.
Sympathy / empathy much appreciated but not requested or required.
Whether you fly Virgin / BM every day, or just on the day of a pre-warned official BALPA / BA strike, is entirely your perogative - it has nothing to do with my resistance to BA's intended changes to my contract.
Sympathy / empathy much appreciated but not requested or required.
Last edited by leander; 24th Jan 2006 at 14:21.
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Jindabyne - Its easy really. The company have a debt and in order to pay it off they want to take it from the staff. Why should we just accept that?
OK, pensions are a problem and something needs to be done. That is true of other groups of staff in other industries too. But what should we do? Let Rentokil set the standard and just take stuff away from staff, or follow the likes of other businesses who have out a one off chunk of cash into the pension, to pay off a debt they owe as a company?
If BA were to give a sensible solution to the given problem, no need to strike or put any pressure on to change things. If BA want to take the cash from us, that's a big problem and we should do something about it.
Most other people in the country (Rentokil and Co-op aside) don't stand to lose 40% of their pension.
Interestigly, BA would have made a 13% margin last year were it not for the increased price of oil. We have lower staff costs that some of our major competitiors (including Lufthansa) and are a productive workforce. Why should we have the bill presented to us?
OK, pensions are a problem and something needs to be done. That is true of other groups of staff in other industries too. But what should we do? Let Rentokil set the standard and just take stuff away from staff, or follow the likes of other businesses who have out a one off chunk of cash into the pension, to pay off a debt they owe as a company?
If BA were to give a sensible solution to the given problem, no need to strike or put any pressure on to change things. If BA want to take the cash from us, that's a big problem and we should do something about it.
Most other people in the country (Rentokil and Co-op aside) don't stand to lose 40% of their pension.
Interestigly, BA would have made a 13% margin last year were it not for the increased price of oil. We have lower staff costs that some of our major competitiors (including Lufthansa) and are a productive workforce. Why should we have the bill presented to us?
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Good luck to you all, and I hope that your management will respond favourably to your arguments. I'll hopefully be travelling with you again in February, paid for from my meagre RAF pension (not a gripe). But, if you strike, and regardless of your pension plight, the majority of your customers will, IMHO, be less than sympathetic. But then, if you're of leander's and BigBrutha's mind, you won't give a damn.
Grandpa Aerotart
Now imagine how they would react if the board decided to do the same thing to the upper management...how would the politicians react if Gordon Brown decided that their final salary pensions were no longer affordable and they were all to unilaterally lose 40% of their pensions....I know 'as if'...but you see my point.
Why is it that the globalisation means that workers must be lowest common denominator T&Cs wise while management reward themselves obscenely...I think we (world wide non management) are being had.
Why is it that the globalisation means that workers must be lowest common denominator T&Cs wise while management reward themselves obscenely...I think we (world wide non management) are being had.
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It's not that we don't give a damn jindabyne, but why should we take all the blame? The management have every chance to not let it get anywhere near that far.
Our leaders & senior managers are, IMO, trying to get richer on the backs of our pension. That displeases me to the point of being prepared to fight back.
I have no wish to inconvenience anyone (except BA management), but what other course of action do we have? And yes, if push comes to shove, I too don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks, especially the Nigel 'knockers' on here... I am trying to protect what was promised to me when I joined, nothing more, nothing less.
Why is pension debt less important than any other debt? Because it's easier to renege on maybe?
And as for the green-eyed monsters out there... For the non-pilots, I'm not really interested in their opinion, if you want my T&Cs then go and train as a pilot. As for other pilots, well I just don't understand where you get off! All pilots should be wanting our profession's T&Cs to be as good as possible... Understand the 'ratchet' effect; for years now we have been ratcheted down by self sponsored type rating candidates (I don't blame them, I'd have done the same if I'd had to), a situation created because the Airlines had a surplus of pilots.
Wouldn't it be good if we started ratcheting up our T&Cs? Well, it starts with those at the top stopping the rot IMO, and this is as rotten as it gets!
Our leaders & senior managers are, IMO, trying to get richer on the backs of our pension. That displeases me to the point of being prepared to fight back.
I have no wish to inconvenience anyone (except BA management), but what other course of action do we have? And yes, if push comes to shove, I too don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks, especially the Nigel 'knockers' on here... I am trying to protect what was promised to me when I joined, nothing more, nothing less.
Why is pension debt less important than any other debt? Because it's easier to renege on maybe?
And as for the green-eyed monsters out there... For the non-pilots, I'm not really interested in their opinion, if you want my T&Cs then go and train as a pilot. As for other pilots, well I just don't understand where you get off! All pilots should be wanting our profession's T&Cs to be as good as possible... Understand the 'ratchet' effect; for years now we have been ratcheted down by self sponsored type rating candidates (I don't blame them, I'd have done the same if I'd had to), a situation created because the Airlines had a surplus of pilots.
Wouldn't it be good if we started ratcheting up our T&Cs? Well, it starts with those at the top stopping the rot IMO, and this is as rotten as it gets!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I think you'll find we all "give a damn". It will be unpleasant to see passengers stranded (again!) and something I'd prefer to avoid. However, if my choice is between accepting what amounts to legalised theft from BA whilst getting a nice warm feeling as I walk through the terminal or having to work for the next x years knowing that I've well and truly shafted myself to the benefit of the shareholders and the management's bonuses, I'm afraid it's no contest.
Nobody actually wants a strike and it's far from a foregone conclusion but the decision will ultimately be made by the BA board.
Today, three directors including WW dumped £270k worth of shares between them so it looks like they realise we're serious.
Nobody actually wants a strike and it's far from a foregone conclusion but the decision will ultimately be made by the BA board.
Today, three directors including WW dumped £270k worth of shares between them so it looks like they realise we're serious.
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Originally Posted by Human Factor
Today, three directors including WW dumped £270k worth of shares between them so it looks like they realise we're serious.
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jyndabine & all other complainants,
We do give a damn - a promise is a promise . Doesn't matter whether it is in relation to a service for a price, or a price for a service.
I'm sure that you would withhold your custom if BA failed on the former - you will be given fair warning if BALPA ballot to withhold service should BA fail on the latter.
Sorry if your T & C's have dwindled. Doesn't mean mine should.
We do give a damn - a promise is a promise . Doesn't matter whether it is in relation to a service for a price, or a price for a service.
I'm sure that you would withhold your custom if BA failed on the former - you will be given fair warning if BALPA ballot to withhold service should BA fail on the latter.
Sorry if your T & C's have dwindled. Doesn't mean mine should.
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It's a worrying to see a willingness to let the company go down as a result of possible pension dispute. If it gets to that point, we'll all get the smaller half of bugger all - including existing pensioners. That'll be a rather hollow "victory".
I empathise with the sentiments though. BA does seem to like to chisel down the T&Cs of its professional staff (both ground and flying), relying on us to "do the decent thing" while pretty well capitulating to the demands of the industrial grades.
I empathise with the sentiments though. BA does seem to like to chisel down the T&Cs of its professional staff (both ground and flying), relying on us to "do the decent thing" while pretty well capitulating to the demands of the industrial grades.
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leander
Firsty, I'm not complaining, simply putting my view.
Your last sentence has a whiff of arrogance, and only reinforces my own perception that joe-public will be highly critical of any strike action (not that some others regard that as having any relevance - but, unlike the London underground point made earlier, air travellers do have other carrier options). Most of the employed UK workforce is subject to pension reduction, but arguably the majority will be relatively much worse off than BA FC: and therein lies your arrogance. I wish you well in achieving an equitable outcome, but I would hope that in the long run things can be turned more to your advantage by adopting methods other that of strike action. Look at one of our major aerospace companies as an example.
Firsty, I'm not complaining, simply putting my view.
Your last sentence has a whiff of arrogance, and only reinforces my own perception that joe-public will be highly critical of any strike action (not that some others regard that as having any relevance - but, unlike the London underground point made earlier, air travellers do have other carrier options). Most of the employed UK workforce is subject to pension reduction, but arguably the majority will be relatively much worse off than BA FC: and therein lies your arrogance. I wish you well in achieving an equitable outcome, but I would hope that in the long run things can be turned more to your advantage by adopting methods other that of strike action. Look at one of our major aerospace companies as an example.
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No arrogance intended so I apologise if it is perceived as such.
Thanks for the sentiment ref 'equitable outcome' , I hope there is no need for IA, but should it happen I hope you will be able to plan accordingly and not be unduly inconvenienced.
Thanks for the sentiment ref 'equitable outcome' , I hope there is no need for IA, but should it happen I hope you will be able to plan accordingly and not be unduly inconvenienced.
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WW has come in to BA waving a baseball bat bringing his 'hardman' image with him from Aer Lingus.
He has come to a profit making company whose employee's have already given much and still realise we will have to give more.It is the manner in which he treats people and has no interest in the pensions of his workforce that has pi**ed off pilots and the rest of us.I do NOT want a strike as the BA passengers have put up with so much crap.Do not just worry about the pilots and BALPA as at the moment all the Unions at BA are in talks to form one 'super' Union to challenge Willie 'Adolf ' Walsh.
He does not give a sh*t about the workforce only the city and the shareholders,helping the rich get richer.....not off the backs of myself,my family and the BA workforce.
You had a fight Walsh with a government subsidised airline and you won.This time you'll have a real fight you will find harder.The reason is,we the employee's who have been here for year's to make it a success, and we don't need you to come in and shatter morale and ruin it all.
At the end of the day WW will be here for 3/4 years screw the workers and PI** off back to the Emerald Isle via Nassau with £3-4 million in bonus payments and NO pension worry.
Do us all a favour and go.
WTDWL.
He has come to a profit making company whose employee's have already given much and still realise we will have to give more.It is the manner in which he treats people and has no interest in the pensions of his workforce that has pi**ed off pilots and the rest of us.I do NOT want a strike as the BA passengers have put up with so much crap.Do not just worry about the pilots and BALPA as at the moment all the Unions at BA are in talks to form one 'super' Union to challenge Willie 'Adolf ' Walsh.
He does not give a sh*t about the workforce only the city and the shareholders,helping the rich get richer.....not off the backs of myself,my family and the BA workforce.
You had a fight Walsh with a government subsidised airline and you won.This time you'll have a real fight you will find harder.The reason is,we the employee's who have been here for year's to make it a success, and we don't need you to come in and shatter morale and ruin it all.
At the end of the day WW will be here for 3/4 years screw the workers and PI** off back to the Emerald Isle via Nassau with £3-4 million in bonus payments and NO pension worry.
Do us all a favour and go.
WTDWL.
