BA pilots 'prepared to strike'?
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Originally Posted by overstress
BAs employee costs (including pension contributions) as a percentage of turnover are lower than Lufthansa, Air France/KLM, Northwest, American and United Airlines.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
I wish ALL at BA the very best. You lead the way and the rest will follow................................
Great to see BALPA being so pro active - about time!
Great to see BALPA being so pro active - about time!
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
overstress
It's now nearly 15 years since Maxwells plundering of the Mirror pension fund was uncovered. I think most peoples memory of Maxwell is as some fat bloke who fell off his yacht! IMHO the general feeling will be that professional pilots earning £50k a year can afford to make their own provisions for their retirement. Remember, the press will not let the truth get in the way of a headline!
"You lead and the rest will follow" is a brave but rather idealistic viewpoint. Industrial action by one group of employees in one company will not improve the conditions of the pilot profession as a whole, nor will action in one country. Striking workers have been sacked and replaced by cheaper labour before, and it will happen again. It will take concerted efforts by all pilots in all areas of the profession before any effect will be felt. People may remember the leaders with fondness and high regard, but they are often the ones who suffer most for their beliefs and convictions.
It's now nearly 15 years since Maxwells plundering of the Mirror pension fund was uncovered. I think most peoples memory of Maxwell is as some fat bloke who fell off his yacht! IMHO the general feeling will be that professional pilots earning £50k a year can afford to make their own provisions for their retirement. Remember, the press will not let the truth get in the way of a headline!
"You lead and the rest will follow" is a brave but rather idealistic viewpoint. Industrial action by one group of employees in one company will not improve the conditions of the pilot profession as a whole, nor will action in one country. Striking workers have been sacked and replaced by cheaper labour before, and it will happen again. It will take concerted efforts by all pilots in all areas of the profession before any effect will be felt. People may remember the leaders with fondness and high regard, but they are often the ones who suffer most for their beliefs and convictions.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Actual figures to prove your claim would be appreciated...
BALPA has also assembled a team of financial experts to closely monitor BA's activities in its campaign to explore the employees reaction to the pension deficit.
If people are interested, use the link I posted at the start of this thread and look at the video presentation.
ATB
Overstress
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
I think most peoples memory of Maxwell is as some fat bloke who fell off his yacht
Well I think you're wrong, o big one! Pensions are big news. Brown has destroyed the pensions industry and we've just had a highly visible strike by British Gas engineers.
IMHO the general feeling will be that professional pilots earning £50k a year can afford to make their own provisions for their retirement
IMHO the public will understand the story:
"Most profitable airline in World with £2bn cash wants to rob employees of deferred pay"
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
If public perception is a problem, change it. The public can be brought on side without too much trouble. This is an important issue, and will affect all of us in the industry. T&Cs in all airlines have been declining for several years (many of us now subsidise the company bottom line by paying for our training, not so at BA I know, but don't count on it for ever). This issue must be supported by pilots in other airlines and other unions.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
M.Mouse - just because a bunch of pilots sat on shuttle back up at the companies behest, why should I lose 40% of my pension? The ones who became stewards did so at BA's offer.
When we work really hard and get forced to go to work, the company say "this is what you signed up for". When we say "can we have the pension you signed up to give us?" they say no.
If you look back to threads about pay strikes from a couple of years ago, you will see me posting to say that we shouldn't. Again and again. This time its different.
It wouldn't be different if BA couldn't afford to pay despite good management.
It is different because BA can afford to pay, despite some considerably poor descisions (that were pointed out at the time). The company are feeding us propaganda at the moment - mixed with a small amount of truth.
When we work really hard and get forced to go to work, the company say "this is what you signed up for". When we say "can we have the pension you signed up to give us?" they say no.
If you look back to threads about pay strikes from a couple of years ago, you will see me posting to say that we shouldn't. Again and again. This time its different.
It wouldn't be different if BA couldn't afford to pay despite good management.
It is different because BA can afford to pay, despite some considerably poor descisions (that were pointed out at the time). The company are feeding us propaganda at the moment - mixed with a small amount of truth.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
overstress
If you could get the Sun or the Mirror to put your headline on the front page then the public would get on your side. Unfortunately the headline is more likely to read "Holiday misery for thousands as pilots walk out". Which headline to you think the editors are more likely to plump for, especially when the most senior line trainers salary is quoted as being the norm for all pilots?
Public perception can be bought (or at least influenced), but BALPAs PR team need to start working on it now. You can bet your bottom dollar that the BA team are preparing their battle lines already. Otherwise Joe Public will not give a shiny sh1te about your pension when you stop them from getting to Disneyland!
If you could get the Sun or the Mirror to put your headline on the front page then the public would get on your side. Unfortunately the headline is more likely to read "Holiday misery for thousands as pilots walk out". Which headline to you think the editors are more likely to plump for, especially when the most senior line trainers salary is quoted as being the norm for all pilots?
Public perception can be bought (or at least influenced), but BALPAs PR team need to start working on it now. You can bet your bottom dollar that the BA team are preparing their battle lines already. Otherwise Joe Public will not give a shiny sh1te about your pension when you stop them from getting to Disneyland!
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
To quote LCG (at a BALPA members/management evening with WW present to a new joiner on BARPS who had the temerity to suggest that his pension was cr@p):
"You knew what you signed up for when you joined."
So did I.
Edited for accuracy, thanks FlyingTom.
"You knew what you signed up for when you joined."
So did I.
Edited for accuracy, thanks FlyingTom.
Last edited by Human Factor; 13th Jan 2006 at 22:50.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
BALPAs PR team need to start working on it now
The popular press have picked up on it already. The Express (no I don't buy it) today said "Air travel chaos was looming as BA pilots prepare to walk out over pensions"
We'll see in the coming weeks who has the public sympathy.. the pilots working to the legal UK maximum faced with losing up to 36% of their hard-earned pension, or the fatcat managers on 200% bonuses, or even the shareholders receiving dividends (cash) whilst the company claims it can't afford to pay the shortfall in ... errr.. cash.
I will only briefly mention the large order for 777s, the news of which BA is surpressing so it can continue to claim 'can't afford to fund shortfall'
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
"You knew what you signed up for when you joined."
It was Lloyd, Flight Ops Director, who said that, WW said there would be no increase in company funding to BARP. Just for the record but totally agree with you AH.
Actually I didn't know what I was signing, I was told it was Industry Leading, I trusted at my peril. The company and BALPA didn't know either at that stage.
Here's how BA might plan to fund the "deficit". Two years time EOG Gatwick slots sold to GB for £500M. Meanwhile NAPS pilots accrual goes back to 60ths etc, saving £500M, imposed by Pension Regulator when company/Trustee talks stagnate. BA appear quite reasonable whilst workforce went on strike. One year later WW leaves BA with £750K bonus. GB gets new chief exec. GB buys 777's/330's. Just trying to blue-sky the issue!
BALPA are far better prepared than BA at this stage. BA have been jumped and are hoping they can string it out until March and the actuary's report. Before the strike we need to advertise the strike dates in the major press,a la Lufthansa. The pilots must appear to be more reasonable than BA.
It was Lloyd, Flight Ops Director, who said that, WW said there would be no increase in company funding to BARP. Just for the record but totally agree with you AH.
Actually I didn't know what I was signing, I was told it was Industry Leading, I trusted at my peril. The company and BALPA didn't know either at that stage.
Here's how BA might plan to fund the "deficit". Two years time EOG Gatwick slots sold to GB for £500M. Meanwhile NAPS pilots accrual goes back to 60ths etc, saving £500M, imposed by Pension Regulator when company/Trustee talks stagnate. BA appear quite reasonable whilst workforce went on strike. One year later WW leaves BA with £750K bonus. GB gets new chief exec. GB buys 777's/330's. Just trying to blue-sky the issue!
BALPA are far better prepared than BA at this stage. BA have been jumped and are hoping they can string it out until March and the actuary's report. Before the strike we need to advertise the strike dates in the major press,a la Lufthansa. The pilots must appear to be more reasonable than BA.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Non pilot and occasional BA customer here. There are so many issues and valid points, I'll itemise some, to make it simpler for you to shoot me down.
The one side are those who have been working [flying] a medium to long time for BA and the other is those who have been working [administration] for BA for a short time. The problem is that the admin people have almost everyone on their side and I expect that they will 'win'. If win can be said to include crippling BA. But British 'management' has a habit of taking American ideas and taking them to the nth degree - far beyond what any American would do. The Americans and the rest of the world sit back and watch the Brits make a complete Horlicks of it and learn their lesson. WW may be Irish but I suspect that he has been selected by the board to make the next British adventure in management and teach the whole world a lesson.
Lastly, I suspect that the above two groups are split by an age line that runs at +/- 45. Above that and you are flight crew with much to lose, below that and you are management with nothing to lose. and therein lies the real rub. The management have nothing to lose and so they will fight. The pilots have everything to lose and so they will fight.
Sadly, I expect that the pilots will lose and the UK will, collectively, fall another pace down hill. That is no reason to not to fight but the UK will lose either and both ways.
As usual, I sit to be corrected.
- Public perception SHOULD be changed but it won't be.
- Bear in mind that many British people think that BA mainly carries those who are not paying for their own ticket and will have less sympathy. [Yes, I know that is not the case]
On these two points, remember that the Great British Public care about very little indeed that is outside of their own field of view. - The shareholders with influence are NOT the individual but the corporate and the pension funds and they do not care about individuals. The irony of that is just too sick to be funny.
- The City are on the same side as WW but, even if he fails and is sacked, the City boys will still make money so they don't really care what happens. If BA falls to bits, someone will pick up the bits and make another airline. So they will carry on regardless.
The one side are those who have been working [flying] a medium to long time for BA and the other is those who have been working [administration] for BA for a short time. The problem is that the admin people have almost everyone on their side and I expect that they will 'win'. If win can be said to include crippling BA. But British 'management' has a habit of taking American ideas and taking them to the nth degree - far beyond what any American would do. The Americans and the rest of the world sit back and watch the Brits make a complete Horlicks of it and learn their lesson. WW may be Irish but I suspect that he has been selected by the board to make the next British adventure in management and teach the whole world a lesson.
Lastly, I suspect that the above two groups are split by an age line that runs at +/- 45. Above that and you are flight crew with much to lose, below that and you are management with nothing to lose. and therein lies the real rub. The management have nothing to lose and so they will fight. The pilots have everything to lose and so they will fight.
Sadly, I expect that the pilots will lose and the UK will, collectively, fall another pace down hill. That is no reason to not to fight but the UK will lose either and both ways.
As usual, I sit to be corrected.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Please remember that this issue does not only affect flight deck.
There are even more who will suffer as a result of this pension "deficit".
So, BALPA needs to get all the other unions on side and make a concerted defence of "what we signed for".
There is a generation split... APS/NAPS/NAPS2 etc. Those that are around 50 years old with 10-15 years to go are getting more than a little worried about whether there will even be a final salary to have a pension (reduced) against.
BA is holding pension forums, but I know of no-one that has bothered going to one. What would be the point... it ain't going to get the pension sorted. The government should step in and force BA to make up the shortfall NOW from available funds.
Who mismanaged the pension? Not those hoping to recieve it, that's for sure.
Those under 40 couldn't give a toss about pensions because they can't see that far into the future. No disrespect (avoiding incoming) to anyone, but do you really think about retirement aged less than 40?
Personally, I believe I will still be here when Willie has gone. Bet he gets a better hand out than I do though.
There are even more who will suffer as a result of this pension "deficit".
So, BALPA needs to get all the other unions on side and make a concerted defence of "what we signed for".
There is a generation split... APS/NAPS/NAPS2 etc. Those that are around 50 years old with 10-15 years to go are getting more than a little worried about whether there will even be a final salary to have a pension (reduced) against.
BA is holding pension forums, but I know of no-one that has bothered going to one. What would be the point... it ain't going to get the pension sorted. The government should step in and force BA to make up the shortfall NOW from available funds.
Who mismanaged the pension? Not those hoping to recieve it, that's for sure.
Those under 40 couldn't give a toss about pensions because they can't see that far into the future. No disrespect (avoiding incoming) to anyone, but do you really think about retirement aged less than 40?
Personally, I believe I will still be here when Willie has gone. Bet he gets a better hand out than I do though.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
You can be sure of that me ol' flower............Willie always puts his Irish roots first, and you can be sure when he jumped approx 100 of his fellow pilots at ALT while an active line pilot (by a position conveniently created by that smoothed tongue devil Barney) to of course pad his own exit(Barney), the writing has been on the wall for sometime..........call it the potatoe famine syndrome or whatever you want, but having been last man on the ALT seniority list for a decadeWillie didn't waste his time in the pub, but instead educated himself in Uni and union matters, well versed may I add.....
He has no friends(pilots) at his former airline ALT and takes no prisoners......
Standfast Speedbird!!!!!!!!
He has no friends(pilots) at his former airline ALT and takes no prisoners......
Standfast Speedbird!!!!!!!!
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Paxboy thanks for your considered posting. You make some interesting points but as you are pax by self-definition your posting has the 'feel' of an outsider to the issue.
Public perception will be changed.
Your bullet points are interesting and of course I'm aware of how share ownership is distributed in a large company.
Your 'split' you perceive is totally wrong and I'm sure other BA pilots will validate me. The NAPS deficit applies to the majority of BA employees, not just the pilots. Managers are in line to lose out as well and many of them are squirming uncomfortably at having to trot out the party line.
The pilots will not lose. If you could have access to the forum where BA pilots discuss these issues and if you visited our flight decks (sadly no longer possible, you'd be most welcome) you would see a strength of feeling like no other on this issue. The subject dear to most pilots hearts is the pension. We cannot leap from one employer to another like our management. We are constrained by seniority. Therefore we tolerate much mis-management, but we will not tolerate interference in our pensions.
Public perception will be changed.
Your bullet points are interesting and of course I'm aware of how share ownership is distributed in a large company.
Your 'split' you perceive is totally wrong and I'm sure other BA pilots will validate me. The NAPS deficit applies to the majority of BA employees, not just the pilots. Managers are in line to lose out as well and many of them are squirming uncomfortably at having to trot out the party line.
The pilots will not lose. If you could have access to the forum where BA pilots discuss these issues and if you visited our flight decks (sadly no longer possible, you'd be most welcome) you would see a strength of feeling like no other on this issue. The subject dear to most pilots hearts is the pension. We cannot leap from one employer to another like our management. We are constrained by seniority. Therefore we tolerate much mis-management, but we will not tolerate interference in our pensions.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Don't let this company give away our retirements so easily without a fight. I never expect understanding from the public, they have their own agenda, they also have their own pension schemes and should be behaving the same. People should question the validity of their company's claims and why the 99% of the population have to allow for the 1% populations errors and failings.
I've got more than 20years to go before I can draw my pension. If we don't set a precedent now the company could try similar things in 15-20years time and cite the same arguements probably. Why can people not see that this is not just about our pension it should be about everybody's. So many pension schemes are being trampled under foot by greedy incompetent management and pension companies, time to stand up to them. That's everybody with a pension, not just BA staff.
Having seen the pensions DVD sent out, when one of the directors answers the question, 'Whose to blame?' and his answer is that it is not helpful to aportion blame here, you pretty much can guess whose at fault. It's not us for wanting to ensure a comfortable retirement for ourselves and our families.
I've got more than 20years to go before I can draw my pension. If we don't set a precedent now the company could try similar things in 15-20years time and cite the same arguements probably. Why can people not see that this is not just about our pension it should be about everybody's. So many pension schemes are being trampled under foot by greedy incompetent management and pension companies, time to stand up to them. That's everybody with a pension, not just BA staff.
Having seen the pensions DVD sent out, when one of the directors answers the question, 'Whose to blame?' and his answer is that it is not helpful to aportion blame here, you pretty much can guess whose at fault. It's not us for wanting to ensure a comfortable retirement for ourselves and our families.
Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Call me bob ayling stuffed things up and disappeared with a shed load.Skippy hung around for 5 years,did sod all,saw the exchange rate was still fine for a sunny retirement in perth then cleared off with another transit load of cash.The same wil apply to wee willie,another transit worker! Count me in at the line.
N4790P
Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Originally Posted by Golden Ticket
So many pension schemes are being trampled under foot by greedy incompetent management and pension companies, time to stand up to them. That's everybody with a pension, not just BA staff.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, you certainly have my support and good luck to all of you.
Controversial, moi?
Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
Paxboy, a considered and interesting posting. I am 52 and have few years to go and (potentially) much to lose. I, obviously, have many contemporaries around the same age.
I WILL strike and I have not met a colleague yet who is not of the same mind. We see this as the line in the sand. We have observed for years the cock-eyed way in which BA is managed and also seen those at the top being rewarded handsomely for their ineptitude e.g. Bob Ayling. I work extremely hard for my money, BA is a good company to fly for but the differential is far less than it was between us and other companies after constant erosion of our Ts & Cs while the core problems remain untouched. I have had enough and will not subsidise the inefficiencies any more, least of all by losing some of my pension. This issue will affect us for the rest of our lives.
The last actual strike ballot BALPA held was in the early 90s. The results were something in the order of 97% in favour with a return of ballot papers also around 97%. If this comes to a strike ballot that one will look like it had luke warm support.I will strike despite the risks.
WW would be foolish to underestimate the anger and resolve.
I WILL strike and I have not met a colleague yet who is not of the same mind. We see this as the line in the sand. We have observed for years the cock-eyed way in which BA is managed and also seen those at the top being rewarded handsomely for their ineptitude e.g. Bob Ayling. I work extremely hard for my money, BA is a good company to fly for but the differential is far less than it was between us and other companies after constant erosion of our Ts & Cs while the core problems remain untouched. I have had enough and will not subsidise the inefficiencies any more, least of all by losing some of my pension. This issue will affect us for the rest of our lives.
The last actual strike ballot BALPA held was in the early 90s. The results were something in the order of 97% in favour with a return of ballot papers also around 97%. If this comes to a strike ballot that one will look like it had luke warm support.I will strike despite the risks.
WW would be foolish to underestimate the anger and resolve.
Last edited by M.Mouse; 14th Jan 2006 at 08:42.
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Re: BA pilots 'prepared to strike'
You have my support chaps - and chappesses. Its about time the fat cats got a bloody nose. Any "non BA" characters who have had a pop at "highly paid BA pilots being greedy" might do well to consider that if BA gets its wicked way over this one it will set a precedent for yet further downward pressure on terms and conditions throughout the industry, and give management in orangeland and FR enough excuses to withhold pay rises and reduce benefits for years to come.
Good luck.
Good luck.