RHODES-SANTORINI incidents?
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This is the only press report I found, its in german, sorry.
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,339539,00.html
Type of a/c: RJ-100
All tyres blew during landing.
No one hurt on board.
Airport authorities told to greek radio, reason should be a pilots error.
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,339539,00.html
Type of a/c: RJ-100
All tyres blew during landing.
No one hurt on board.
Airport authorities told to greek radio, reason should be a pilots error.
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Confirmed Aegean Airlines Incidents
Despite the managements efforts to surpress these two incidents, people have heard about it.... No injuries (thankfully)...Is this operation turing into an aero club?? See how easy it is to be the ERA gold award winner of the year in the first instance, to potential safetyhazard operation....
They have been a little unlucky of late ,they also had few passengers and cabin crew sent to hospital when one of there AVRO 's on schedule to the island of Chios flew into CAT or TCUs a few weeks ago.
They have been a little unlucky of late ,they also had few passengers and cabin crew sent to hospital when one of there AVRO 's on schedule to the island of Chios flew into CAT or TCUs a few weeks ago.
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I know of one F/O who left us to go to them but he spoke highly of them so no comment on the airline ability or structure.
Usualy though it is not the operating crew's fault only. The problem comes from upper pilot management. If they insist on operating beyond limits or in marginal conditions one day as in all airlines it will come back and bite them. All the savings that could be saved from non-diversions or cancelled flights are gone with one incident. If you teach pilots to operate in a certain way, if you teach pilots that limits are there because we need to have them legaly but realy do not apply to us because we are better, then of course you are forcing operating crews to disregard safety for operational efficiency in the detriment of overall airline viability and total airline safety and profitability. If the airline depends on its crews to bend or even brake the rules in order to make money, than there is something completely wrong with the business model...
Usualy though it is not the operating crew's fault only. The problem comes from upper pilot management. If they insist on operating beyond limits or in marginal conditions one day as in all airlines it will come back and bite them. All the savings that could be saved from non-diversions or cancelled flights are gone with one incident. If you teach pilots to operate in a certain way, if you teach pilots that limits are there because we need to have them legaly but realy do not apply to us because we are better, then of course you are forcing operating crews to disregard safety for operational efficiency in the detriment of overall airline viability and total airline safety and profitability. If the airline depends on its crews to bend or even brake the rules in order to make money, than there is something completely wrong with the business model...
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Before the incident in Rhodes a Captain was replaced by another one to fly the "mission" to Rhodes with same SE winds.
When the Captain who was replaced filled an Air Safety report, he had to take it back after he received a call from the management.
The worst place to work.
When the Captain who was replaced filled an Air Safety report, he had to take it back after he received a call from the management.
The worst place to work.
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What is mentioned about the management, is absolutely right!
Most of their pilots, are "presed" by the management, to fly their flights, even in adverse weather!
What was happened in Rhodes, is the approval....
Their competitor, Olympic airways, when winds are exceeding a predermined force, blowing from S-SE direction, are not flying to Rhodes, due to severe turbulence and wind shear, in final, specially at an altitude below 700 agl, making the approach, a "Russian rullet"....
This day, Olympic cancelled their flights to Rhodes, so the Aegean pilot, after the management's order (?), went there, and hit his wing on the tarmag, trying to land. Making a go-around, left for Athens, (WITH DAMAGE), without landing at a closer airport, such as KOS, in order to investigate the damage.
This was a risky bussiness!!!! (at my oppinion)
Is this the way that "airlines of the year 2004" are flying????
Most of their pilots, are "presed" by the management, to fly their flights, even in adverse weather!
What was happened in Rhodes, is the approval....
Their competitor, Olympic airways, when winds are exceeding a predermined force, blowing from S-SE direction, are not flying to Rhodes, due to severe turbulence and wind shear, in final, specially at an altitude below 700 agl, making the approach, a "Russian rullet"....
This day, Olympic cancelled their flights to Rhodes, so the Aegean pilot, after the management's order (?), went there, and hit his wing on the tarmag, trying to land. Making a go-around, left for Athens, (WITH DAMAGE), without landing at a closer airport, such as KOS, in order to investigate the damage.
This was a risky bussiness!!!! (at my oppinion)
Is this the way that "airlines of the year 2004" are flying????
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Is an independent greek investigation body investigating these incidents, or does the ''management'' have ways to lets say, treat it on a typical greek way and thus influencing the outcome, so that the pilot is the sole to blame...................
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I think that the HCAA, started an investigation about those incidents, but as usually, they have being "digged".....
If this incidence was made by OA, then I can tell you, that there would be a grate "negative" publicity!!
Some years ago, when OA planes diverted from LGTS, due to RVR, below cat1, they used the autoland "feature" of the 737's, and they landed, without any "problem", from HCAA!!!!!!!
(even after reports).
I hope that they will be lucky, in the future, as they are untill now, because an accident will have negative influence not only for their company, but for all others flying in Greece, as well as turism..., which is the number one "money buissness" for Greece.
If this incidence was made by OA, then I can tell you, that there would be a grate "negative" publicity!!
Some years ago, when OA planes diverted from LGTS, due to RVR, below cat1, they used the autoland "feature" of the 737's, and they landed, without any "problem", from HCAA!!!!!!!
(even after reports).
I hope that they will be lucky, in the future, as they are untill now, because an accident will have negative influence not only for their company, but for all others flying in Greece, as well as turism..., which is the number one "money buissness" for Greece.
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It's true that if the same had happpend with an Olympic flight there would have been much more concern and noise about it. The Aegean incident in Rhodos just flahsed by in the news (Greek TV), the reporter saying that the aircraft executed a "standard" touch and go procedure 
.........
Can anybody tell me what happened in Santorini, or what they have heard, since there have been no reports in the news at all.
More or less the day of the Rhodes incident, something similar happened in Heraklion with strong southern winds, an Olympic ATR did two missed approaches and returned to Athens, saying that the plane was uncontrollable below 100ft, some 5 Minutes later an Aegean 737 landed in Heraklion.
.........Can anybody tell me what happened in Santorini, or what they have heard, since there have been no reports in the news at all.
More or less the day of the Rhodes incident, something similar happened in Heraklion with strong southern winds, an Olympic ATR did two missed approaches and returned to Athens, saying that the plane was uncontrollable below 100ft, some 5 Minutes later an Aegean 737 landed in Heraklion.
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If Olympic ATR was uncontrollable below 100' on the first time,why did he try again? Was this a safe action?
Please stop acting as lawyers. Also stop acusing Aegean as Olympic has numerous incidents that stayed away from publicity under HCAA protection.If you want we can talk with flights and dates.
Making this discussion in public forums adds no assets at all to our prestige.Haven't you learn anything from EURO 2004? United we stand, devided we fall ! Wake up
Please stop acting as lawyers. Also stop acusing Aegean as Olympic has numerous incidents that stayed away from publicity under HCAA protection.If you want we can talk with flights and dates.
Making this discussion in public forums adds no assets at all to our prestige.Haven't you learn anything from EURO 2004? United we stand, devided we fall ! Wake up
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tetraNG,
there is nothing wrong with making a 2nd attempt to land in conditions like these, provided:
1) you have enough fuel to make a 2nd approach and THEN proceed to your alternate (if you fail to land again) and
2) the wind is within limits (aircraft limits and/or specific airfield limits)
Usually, on gusty conditions when the aircraft is uncontrollable below 100', is just bad luck that you are about to flare when the strongest gust blows. But that is just a gust. If you were at the same point 15 seconds later there would not be any gust and you could probably make a safe landing. When the wind is "gusty" , gust is the "exception" of the prevailing wing. That means that you get a wind that every now and then gets stronger.
Provided the above "rules" are met, there is nothing wrong with trying again. In the ATR's case, it seems that the gust was more frequent. It is all down to the judgement of the particular captain on the particular day to "make the call". That's what he is paid for.
It is all very nice and safe to judge or question these calls in front of your pc monitor (I include myself in the last comment).
About the damaged on landing 737 carrying on to ATH from RHO .........hmmm , I don't know. Keep in mind that technically, they should "land at the nearest suitable airport". RHO was definetely not suitable! If the weather was better in KGS, that would be I think the safest option. The problem usually is that you have to think commercially as well. Grounding your aircraft in KGS (especially if you don't know how bad the damage is) might keep the a/c grounded for much much longer than necessary (lack of qualified engineers, special tools, parts , hangar).
Very interesting scenario for training!
there is nothing wrong with making a 2nd attempt to land in conditions like these, provided:
1) you have enough fuel to make a 2nd approach and THEN proceed to your alternate (if you fail to land again) and
2) the wind is within limits (aircraft limits and/or specific airfield limits)
Usually, on gusty conditions when the aircraft is uncontrollable below 100', is just bad luck that you are about to flare when the strongest gust blows. But that is just a gust. If you were at the same point 15 seconds later there would not be any gust and you could probably make a safe landing. When the wind is "gusty" , gust is the "exception" of the prevailing wing. That means that you get a wind that every now and then gets stronger.
Provided the above "rules" are met, there is nothing wrong with trying again. In the ATR's case, it seems that the gust was more frequent. It is all down to the judgement of the particular captain on the particular day to "make the call". That's what he is paid for.
It is all very nice and safe to judge or question these calls in front of your pc monitor (I include myself in the last comment).
About the damaged on landing 737 carrying on to ATH from RHO .........hmmm , I don't know. Keep in mind that technically, they should "land at the nearest suitable airport". RHO was definetely not suitable! If the weather was better in KGS, that would be I think the safest option. The problem usually is that you have to think commercially as well. Grounding your aircraft in KGS (especially if you don't know how bad the damage is) might keep the a/c grounded for much much longer than necessary (lack of qualified engineers, special tools, parts , hangar).
Very interesting scenario for training!
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Okay the wind conditions at HER might have been bad luck for the ATR, but still this story about using the autoland feature at Thessaloniki on a CAT-I ILS is freightening. I agree however that OAL has had its incidents too.
I guess a part of the responsibility is with HCAA as well, controllers using non-standard phraseology, partially not understanding non-standard requests by pilots, still talking lots of Greek on the radio when foreign pilots are on the frequency, not informing about dangerous weather conditions reported by previous aircraft or putting them on the ATIS, badly designed SIDs and STARs at least for the busy perpipheral airports, bad SIDs and procedures with respect to noise abatement, and so on and so forth......
those are all things that can be fixed with practically no cost
HCAA is in the same state as the rest of the country......
Anyway, does anybody know what happend in Santorini, still no answer on that one.
I guess a part of the responsibility is with HCAA as well, controllers using non-standard phraseology, partially not understanding non-standard requests by pilots, still talking lots of Greek on the radio when foreign pilots are on the frequency, not informing about dangerous weather conditions reported by previous aircraft or putting them on the ATIS, badly designed SIDs and STARs at least for the busy perpipheral airports, bad SIDs and procedures with respect to noise abatement, and so on and so forth......
those are all things that can be fixed with practically no cost
HCAA is in the same state as the rest of the country......
Anyway, does anybody know what happend in Santorini, still no answer on that one.
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greek-freak,
The Santorini incident is mentioned in the Spiegel article linked by railwaysengineer in the second post of this thread.
DATE/SITE: 30 Jan Santorini, Greece
AIRCRAFT & REGN: RJ100 of Aegean Airlines
CIRCUMSTANCES: All tires blew during a much hotter than normal landing
DEATH & INJURY: Nil
PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS: Pilot error (foot fault)
From:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...19/ai_n9495640
The Santorini incident is mentioned in the Spiegel article linked by railwaysengineer in the second post of this thread.
DATE/SITE: 30 Jan Santorini, Greece
AIRCRAFT & REGN: RJ100 of Aegean Airlines
CIRCUMSTANCES: All tires blew during a much hotter than normal landing
DEATH & INJURY: Nil
PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS: Pilot error (foot fault)
From:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...19/ai_n9495640
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I dont understand....
An autoland during heavier winds is a better way of landing?
Its quite the opposite.
My SOP.. autoland not permitted under 15kts crosswind (737NG).
Although I am Greek myself.. What can I say.. GOTTA BE A GREEK AIRLINE THING.
I only remember 2 years ago as a passenger on a 737-200 (on the tarmac), side window off, pilot smoking while reading his paper.
An autoland during heavier winds is a better way of landing?
Its quite the opposite.
My SOP.. autoland not permitted under 15kts crosswind (737NG).
Although I am Greek myself.. What can I say.. GOTTA BE A GREEK AIRLINE THING.
I only remember 2 years ago as a passenger on a 737-200 (on the tarmac), side window off, pilot smoking while reading his paper.
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Cringe:
thanks for the info, I must have missed that the Spiegel-article was talking about the santorini incident......
Bantios:
there is some confusion there concerning the autoland, this has nothing to do with wind etc....... I just refered to the rumour (or fact?) mentioned in the 3rd post of Oxogekas, that while weather was below CAT 1 minima in LGTS due to the usual fog, aircraft landed with autoland when there was nothing more than a CAT 1 ILS installed and that this seems to have been tolerated by HCAA.
In what concerns crew reading newspapers, I have seen them doing that while taxiing to holding point rwy 33R at Hellinikon, captain passing interesting articles or car-advertisements to his co-pilot, looking up once in a while to make sure he is still on the twy.
At the holding point the same crew was instructed to line up behind a landing A300, since captain was still reading his newspaper, he did not pay attention to ATC instructions by the female controller and asked his co-pilot "ti ipe i malako;", something like "what did the bi*** say?"
I have been sitting on the jump seat during that flight.
thanks for the info, I must have missed that the Spiegel-article was talking about the santorini incident......
Bantios:
there is some confusion there concerning the autoland, this has nothing to do with wind etc....... I just refered to the rumour (or fact?) mentioned in the 3rd post of Oxogekas, that while weather was below CAT 1 minima in LGTS due to the usual fog, aircraft landed with autoland when there was nothing more than a CAT 1 ILS installed and that this seems to have been tolerated by HCAA.
In what concerns crew reading newspapers, I have seen them doing that while taxiing to holding point rwy 33R at Hellinikon, captain passing interesting articles or car-advertisements to his co-pilot, looking up once in a while to make sure he is still on the twy.
At the holding point the same crew was instructed to line up behind a landing A300, since captain was still reading his newspaper, he did not pay attention to ATC instructions by the female controller and asked his co-pilot "ti ipe i malako;", something like "what did the bi*** say?"
I have been sitting on the jump seat during that flight.
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... controllers using non-standard phraseology, partially not understanding non-standard requests by pilots, ... not informing about dangerous weather conditions reported by previous aircraft or putting them on the ATIS, badly designed SIDs and STARs at least for the busy perpipheral airports, bad SIDs and procedures with respect to noise abatement...
If not, go back to your flight simulator and stop talking about things you have no idea about
There's a good chap
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
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Hey, Think Rate, just what prompted you to write your peurile post about Greek Freak? What point are you trying to make? Are you so sure you are a judge of his thoughts that you assume he is not a pilot and tell him to go play with his toys? Just where are you coming from with your anger and dismissive attemt to belittle someone who wrote a perfectly legitimate post?
How often have you landed in Rhodes or Heraklion in 30kt southerlies?
If all you can do is post such trivia, please leave the room!
How often have you landed in Rhodes or Heraklion in 30kt southerlies?
If all you can do is post such trivia, please leave the room!
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Hi Rubik,
I thought that where I am coming from is obvious, since I do not hide it in my profile; heavily involved with aviation in Greece, from both sides of the scope, albeit not professionally so, but that's besides the point. Very concerned too but, I like to think, constructively so.
The status of Aviation in Greece -not to mention General Aviation which is a disgrace and that’s another topic- leaves a lot to be desired, compared to some of the more evolved environments. But the situation has greatly improved over the recent years, with controllers being better trained and equipped and older (mostly ex-mil) captain mucho, smoking-and-feet-on-the-panel types tending to quickly disappear, either in retirement or in CRM classes.
The Hellenic CAA? A joke, surely, and a remnant of the old 70s type of heavily regulated, government-controlled, dinosaur of a body but Greek Freak's post was so obviously an uneducated, untrue, exaggerated, jump seat description of things he obviously knows or understands little about that it would be amusing if it did not concern such serious matters. I mean what, in what aspect and where is a "badly designed SID/STAR" for heavens sake???
Perhaps you missed the point about Greek Freak's erroneous attitude; plus you are confusing the airports? LGIR boasts challenging northerly winds @90 degrees to the approach path, not southerly. Rhodes has the windshear problem with south-easterly winds. And Samos too, mostly with northerlies (windshear)... The approaches are challengin in terms of morphology and weather but in what way are these or other approaches "badly designed"? It is a genuine question.
TR
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ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
I thought that where I am coming from is obvious, since I do not hide it in my profile; heavily involved with aviation in Greece, from both sides of the scope, albeit not professionally so, but that's besides the point. Very concerned too but, I like to think, constructively so.
The status of Aviation in Greece -not to mention General Aviation which is a disgrace and that’s another topic- leaves a lot to be desired, compared to some of the more evolved environments. But the situation has greatly improved over the recent years, with controllers being better trained and equipped and older (mostly ex-mil) captain mucho, smoking-and-feet-on-the-panel types tending to quickly disappear, either in retirement or in CRM classes.
The Hellenic CAA? A joke, surely, and a remnant of the old 70s type of heavily regulated, government-controlled, dinosaur of a body but Greek Freak's post was so obviously an uneducated, untrue, exaggerated, jump seat description of things he obviously knows or understands little about that it would be amusing if it did not concern such serious matters. I mean what, in what aspect and where is a "badly designed SID/STAR" for heavens sake???
Perhaps you missed the point about Greek Freak's erroneous attitude; plus you are confusing the airports? LGIR boasts challenging northerly winds @90 degrees to the approach path, not southerly. Rhodes has the windshear problem with south-easterly winds. And Samos too, mostly with northerlies (windshear)... The approaches are challengin in terms of morphology and weather but in what way are these or other approaches "badly designed"? It is a genuine question.
TR
----------------------------------------
ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think!
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Greek freak, first of all, you should not be in the cocpit, especially during the t/o!
Secondly, it is not fair, to accuse someone who let you in the cocpit, because (i am sure) YOU asked it!
According to the incidens of AEGEAN, what is known, the captain of the SANTORINI incident, is being dismissed, because he landed far - in the runway. He and his plane, were lucky, of not falling beneath the airport's perimeter......
What I am acussing, is that the policy of some airlines is, "try to land and do not over-shoot (go-around)". This is NOT the policy of OA. And I can assure you, after 16000 hours and +, that I have loged in my books. I excecuted many go-arounds.
This type of "competition" is the reason of those two incidents. Of course OA has in the past incidents, that were "first page" on the newspapers, and on tv. On all those incidents, commanders where asked "why" and "how". And they were punished acordingly.
It is not fair to blame coleques (of all airlines), because after all these years, what I learned is that.
Airplane is like a bitch! You dont know when and how it will bite!
Airplane is NOT a friend!
The one who says that he is an aviator, is the one who is first in the list, of doing something stupid.
A good pilot, is the pilot who resings!
So keep calm. Blame only the policy of the operators.
And as far as I understand, if the pilots in AEGEAN are not going to establish a UNION, they will have lots of problems!
A UNION IS A MUST!
Secondly, it is not fair, to accuse someone who let you in the cocpit, because (i am sure) YOU asked it!
According to the incidens of AEGEAN, what is known, the captain of the SANTORINI incident, is being dismissed, because he landed far - in the runway. He and his plane, were lucky, of not falling beneath the airport's perimeter......
What I am acussing, is that the policy of some airlines is, "try to land and do not over-shoot (go-around)". This is NOT the policy of OA. And I can assure you, after 16000 hours and +, that I have loged in my books. I excecuted many go-arounds.
This type of "competition" is the reason of those two incidents. Of course OA has in the past incidents, that were "first page" on the newspapers, and on tv. On all those incidents, commanders where asked "why" and "how". And they were punished acordingly.
It is not fair to blame coleques (of all airlines), because after all these years, what I learned is that.
Airplane is like a bitch! You dont know when and how it will bite!
Airplane is NOT a friend!
The one who says that he is an aviator, is the one who is first in the list, of doing something stupid.
A good pilot, is the pilot who resings!
So keep calm. Blame only the policy of the operators.
And as far as I understand, if the pilots in AEGEAN are not going to establish a UNION, they will have lots of problems!
A UNION IS A MUST!