British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1
IMHO Super Stall has it right:
Sadly for the potential new joiners that's exactly how I see it.
Firstly IAG don't need to offer BA pilots any say or input at all, so I'll credit BA management for at least trying to give the impression of trying to engage with the current pilot workforce.
As for the ballot on the deal - if the BA pilots vote "No" IAG will simply set up a separate OpCo to exploit the LHR slots (called "Jetstar Europe" perhaps ?) and BA mainline withers on the vine.
Then we have the calls for a strike, aka "showing some backbone", "growing a pair" and all the other colourful rhetoric? Anyone who has followed recent IR history in the UK will know that the courts would almost certainly side with IAG/BA in a dispute over this and regard Industrial Action as BALPA attempting to tell IAG how to run it's business, rather than a genuine grievance over existing employees T&Cs. Do we want a pointless and very expensive repeat of the Openskies fiasco?
It's not a perfect deal, I'd like to see a lot more detail, but I fear it's the best available and at least for the forseeable future ( however long that is) there's a BA worth joining!
They hold all the cards this time. They don't need to offer anything in return. Sometimes they just have you over a barrel.
Firstly IAG don't need to offer BA pilots any say or input at all, so I'll credit BA management for at least trying to give the impression of trying to engage with the current pilot workforce.
As for the ballot on the deal - if the BA pilots vote "No" IAG will simply set up a separate OpCo to exploit the LHR slots (called "Jetstar Europe" perhaps ?) and BA mainline withers on the vine.
Then we have the calls for a strike, aka "showing some backbone", "growing a pair" and all the other colourful rhetoric? Anyone who has followed recent IR history in the UK will know that the courts would almost certainly side with IAG/BA in a dispute over this and regard Industrial Action as BALPA attempting to tell IAG how to run it's business, rather than a genuine grievance over existing employees T&Cs. Do we want a pointless and very expensive repeat of the Openskies fiasco?
It's not a perfect deal, I'd like to see a lot more detail, but I fear it's the best available and at least for the forseeable future ( however long that is) there's a BA worth joining!
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Jan 2012 at 09:32.
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If you had command in easy/Ryr/jet2 would you leave for BA?
This is not a B scale anyway - (that was the DC pension) - Its a C scale, or even D scale if you consider APS. How many times will BALPA allow airlines to chip away the terms for the new generation; T&C changes should be shared equally; witness the the public sector workers who are negotiating without even the mention of throwing the burden on new recruits - result; DB pensions stay (but probably slightly modified for all).
This really is the lowest form of negotiation (albeit far from unusual in the airline industry - see CXs i-cadets for where this eventually leads). When the present incumbants retire (on very nice DB pensions), this is their legacy
Last edited by Time Traveller; 5th Jan 2012 at 07:43.
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As I said on another thread
Something that strikes me is that Ba pilots have a nice life with many perks when compared to other airlines - some airlines pay more, some (all) give better short to medium term career progression but pretty much none offer the balance and extra perks that ba currently do. It would appear that an awful lot on here would be willing to leave their home countries, commands with relatively stable companies (easyjet etc.) and lives to join. I wouldn't do that to join Alitalia, Iberia, lufthansa etc. ( I am British). On the basis of simple supply and demand, the need to remain competitive, the fact we are dealing with greedy humans and finally with regards to BAs attitude towards unions of late ( which I agree with) are you so sure things will still stay so fine for the next 10, 20, 30 years of your careers. Things change.
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And breathe
For all the poolers I just want to say I know this is a daunting time waiting for your place in the company and wondering when it will happen especially with the BMI integration. Getting cross or upset with the current workforce in BA will not help your cause though.
For starters this information we have on this potential merger and the conditions for it to happen have only just been released and is going to be made more clear over the next month. As has been said on here already by some of my colleagues the real fact is that without these new conditions agreed it would appear that BA will have run its course (or at least that is what IAG will have us believe). All new recruits will be into the new operation and there will be no negotiation on the conditions. Rest assured that the pay/pension will be much less, the holiday reduced, higher rostered hours and all the perks and extras will disappear. BA SH will disappear for good and the LH will probably be attacked next. This all centres around the need to make SH profitable against the Loco's.
Again as has already been pointed out, for those of us who have been through the ringer with redundancies and employment uncertainties, BA is still one of the most secure airlines going and this merger will definitely help cement that at least for a while. For me personally, money is important of course it is but, to have some job security and be able to build a life around work is by far and away the best perk of working for BA. For those of you at FR and U2 I know you have security and possibly will not understand my point of view. Not knowing much about FR and U2 I would imagine that there are still more career opportunities for you at BA. Like I say not knowing and will happily be corrected on that last comment.
We are awaiting the next load of info on these potential changes and the merger and will probably be in a much clearer position by the end of this month. Standby for news!
For starters this information we have on this potential merger and the conditions for it to happen have only just been released and is going to be made more clear over the next month. As has been said on here already by some of my colleagues the real fact is that without these new conditions agreed it would appear that BA will have run its course (or at least that is what IAG will have us believe). All new recruits will be into the new operation and there will be no negotiation on the conditions. Rest assured that the pay/pension will be much less, the holiday reduced, higher rostered hours and all the perks and extras will disappear. BA SH will disappear for good and the LH will probably be attacked next. This all centres around the need to make SH profitable against the Loco's.
Again as has already been pointed out, for those of us who have been through the ringer with redundancies and employment uncertainties, BA is still one of the most secure airlines going and this merger will definitely help cement that at least for a while. For me personally, money is important of course it is but, to have some job security and be able to build a life around work is by far and away the best perk of working for BA. For those of you at FR and U2 I know you have security and possibly will not understand my point of view. Not knowing much about FR and U2 I would imagine that there are still more career opportunities for you at BA. Like I say not knowing and will happily be corrected on that last comment.
We are awaiting the next load of info on these potential changes and the merger and will probably be in a much clearer position by the end of this month. Standby for news!
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The irony of the situation is that these changes have been in part forced on BA as they have to compete with the low-cost airlines with their harder-working and lower-paid pilots. The very pilots who accepted the shafting of Ryanair and said "I'll deal with this cr@p outfit then jump to BA" are the masters of their own demise. The low-cost cadets have driven down pay for their entire careers. As the rot has set in it might well be a better financial decision to stay in that cr@p outfit for a command, your whole life spent working for that Irish crook. The words "reap" and "sow" come to mind.
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Chief Willy
Absolutely spot on.
As for the so called "B" Scale salary etc, didn't they do this at Cathay? It certainly drove a wedge through their workforce.
Absolutely spot on.
As for the so called "B" Scale salary etc, didn't they do this at Cathay? It certainly drove a wedge through their workforce.
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How many times will BALPA allow airlines to chip away the terms for the new generation; T&C changes should be shared equally; witness the the public sector workers who are negotiating without even the mention of throwing the burden on new recruits
Also don't idolise the public sector unions. they are even worse - nope - they haven't put their pension burden on new joiners, they've put it on my kids and their kids and all future taxpayers.
I hear what you are saying about Ts and C's changes being shared equally, as a 40 odd year old with no real pension, i'm more than pissed off that the previous generation ran away with all the money, had healthcare, pensions and early retirement and used all the oil to boot, and left us to pick up the pieces. I would prefer, in pricinple, for the pain to be shared equally but how do you propose to slide everyone on a 24 year pay scale on to a 34 year payscale? that would result in huge pay cuts for all involved. Personally I can't see any equitable method of sliding all existing employees onto a new scale - not to mention the legal ramifications of doing so.
As has been mentioned too, this appears to be an "all-or-nothing" deal, and to be honest, I think the deal proposed gives the best protection and best future prospects to all current and new BA employees. Sure we'd all like to carry on in a hugely profitable business with great T's and C's, but we've got a government that hates aviation (which makes the BMI slots the only way to expand) and low cost airlines that have a much lower cost base (due largely to very low pilot t's and c's - at least in the right hand seat).
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757 Driver,
You just freeze pay until you catch up with the new scale by virtue of your length of service. They've just done this at MartinAir/KLM. Although, all the MartinAir pilots have gone to the BOTTOM of the seniority list!
Have to say, Chief Willy has got it right here....
I think it'll make the square root of **** all difference to the number of applicants BA continue to get via their DEP scheme.
You just freeze pay until you catch up with the new scale by virtue of your length of service. They've just done this at MartinAir/KLM. Although, all the MartinAir pilots have gone to the BOTTOM of the seniority list!
Have to say, Chief Willy has got it right here....
I think it'll make the square root of **** all difference to the number of applicants BA continue to get via their DEP scheme.
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if the BA pilots vote "No" IAG will simply set up a separate OpCo to exploit the LHR slots ( called "Jetstar Europe" perhaps ?)
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can't fault your numbers binsleepin, but eveyone needs to stop falling into the trap of comparing some idealistic set of circumstances that isn't going to happen. I'm willing to bet the payscales of BA express would be alot less and THAT is the alternative to compare the new payscale to, not the current payscale. Those are currently the only to options. BMI as BA express or join mainline with a new payscale. Not great, but certainly the best option. BALPA and the pilots can only play the hand that is dealt. As I said before, if anyone has a problem speak to the people that dealt the cards, not the players.
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Hi all,
I have tabulated the proposed change but can't paste it in as the format disappears but it shows that a new joiner post Mar '12 will be £283,500 worse off over their career if they retire at 65 than if they joined prior to Mar '12. see below.
Year / 24 Year Scale / 34 Year Scale / Yearly loss / Total Loss
1 / £50,000 / £50,000 / 0 / 0
2 / £52,500 / £51,750 / £ 750 / £750
24 / £107,500 max lvl / £90,250 / £17,250 / £207,000
34 / £107,500 / £107,500 / 0 / £283,500
This is a huge pay reduction for any new joiner and can only be interpreted as a 'B Scale'. I think this may have an affect on recruitment as after 12 years (rough time to command) as an FO a new joiner will be on about £70k rather than £78k and be £50k down over those 12 years. The higher pay at BA was an offset for the much longer time to command than easy/ryan/J2. If that benefit is lost then the economics of moving to BA in mid career is harder to justify. Like-wise pilots at Monarch/Thompson/TC on their legacy payscales will take a much bigger drop on a move to BA. As Chief Willie says it might now be a better decision to stay with your present outfit and a quicker command.
Another option would be to cut the number of paypoint levels for all. Anyone above the new maximum level stay where they are and anyone below increases only to the new maximum. This way everyone takes some pain.
If the pilots voted no and BA did introduce a BA Express then depending on its T&Cs BA Express would no longer be at the top of the career tree but only half way up, level with easy/ryan etc. BA Express would therefore not be able to entice experienced pilots to work for them in the same way they do now.
However you look at it, its a major kick in the slats and I will now have to revisit the decision of pay over lifestyle with the move to BA not looking as certain as it was.
Happy New Year to all and best regards
I have tabulated the proposed change but can't paste it in as the format disappears but it shows that a new joiner post Mar '12 will be £283,500 worse off over their career if they retire at 65 than if they joined prior to Mar '12. see below.
Year / 24 Year Scale / 34 Year Scale / Yearly loss / Total Loss
1 / £50,000 / £50,000 / 0 / 0
2 / £52,500 / £51,750 / £ 750 / £750
24 / £107,500 max lvl / £90,250 / £17,250 / £207,000
34 / £107,500 / £107,500 / 0 / £283,500
This is a huge pay reduction for any new joiner and can only be interpreted as a 'B Scale'. I think this may have an affect on recruitment as after 12 years (rough time to command) as an FO a new joiner will be on about £70k rather than £78k and be £50k down over those 12 years. The higher pay at BA was an offset for the much longer time to command than easy/ryan/J2. If that benefit is lost then the economics of moving to BA in mid career is harder to justify. Like-wise pilots at Monarch/Thompson/TC on their legacy payscales will take a much bigger drop on a move to BA. As Chief Willie says it might now be a better decision to stay with your present outfit and a quicker command.
Another option would be to cut the number of paypoint levels for all. Anyone above the new maximum level stay where they are and anyone below increases only to the new maximum. This way everyone takes some pain.
If the pilots voted no and BA did introduce a BA Express then depending on its T&Cs BA Express would no longer be at the top of the career tree but only half way up, level with easy/ryan etc. BA Express would therefore not be able to entice experienced pilots to work for them in the same way they do now.
However you look at it, its a major kick in the slats and I will now have to revisit the decision of pay over lifestyle with the move to BA not looking as certain as it was.
Happy New Year to all and best regards
Any idea on how they'll manage the seniority issues?
Surely, some compensation has to now be introduced for significant experience/command time etc.
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Thanks for the info binsleepin. Maybe once the current BA pilots see that figure in the cold light of day they may opt to support the new joiners, at least in some form or other, by sharing the burden.
Gutted.
Gutted.