British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

[Super Stall]

Fat Dog

Stop it. Seriously, it's starting to get a little embarrasing.

Go have a think and then edit that last post.

[Hand Solo]

@FTC - We can see this. However what I don't think you are seeing, so I'll repeat this, is that we are not being given a choice in this. BA's proposal is not "Save this amount per year please". BA's proposal is "New payscales, and save this amount per year, and make short haul profitable by 2015". There is no option to pick, choose, or unpick BAs proposal. It's take it all or leave it all. A straight yes or no.

[ALLOW]

This must be a Ryanair thread if you can't negotiate........really???? Why bother with a union?

[Fat Dog]

Fat Dog

Stop it. Seriously, it's starting to get a little embarrasing.

Go have a think and then edit that last post.

Thought you were 'bowing out'?

OK, please explain to me how introducing the 34 PP to new joiners only solves the short haul problem.

[Hand Solo]

The negotiation comes later on the savings. The new pay scales are non-negotiable. Welcome to the world of IAG.

The 34PP scales don't solve the shorthaul 'problem' (if it even exists), athough it does reduce the costs to short haul between now and 2020. They are the price IAG demand for having any say in the matter. They are the cover charge for entry to the game.

[Fate Hunter]

If it were Ryanair, BA would either have been liquidated as a poor investment or everyone would be staying in the local Formule 1 at Lyon on night stops. I don't see that, do you?

At the end of the day, this is decided, and I would rather get on with my colleagues and have a beer than argue this ad infinitum.

So long as the scales are treated the same and have the same inflation raises applied, allowances and pension contributions remain the same, along with all other Ts and Cs, bid line and credit hour targets, that will suffice for me.

[binsleepen]

Flying Tin Cans,

If you see my earlier figures they are based on a £750 pa difference. I agree that in year 1 £750 is not the end of the world. But this difference keeps increasing by £750 pa so by year 24 when the A scale has reached the maximum pay point the B scaler is on £17000 less pa.

Over the course of 34 years if you stayed a FO the B scale will earn approx £280000 less than on the A scale. Obviously no-one stays an FO for 34 years but this discrepancy is only magnified on the Captains payscale.

Regards

[ALLOW]

Just for pure interest why are they non negotiable? Where do you draw the line on what you can negotiate??? You say savings later....is this not a saving? Supposedly! It's obvious what it is....it's a very simple tactic to break up the union in BA, make BA more competitive with the LOCO etc....it will happen.

Don't shoot me just a theory....
I have no idea say 300 ex Bmi plus 660 future recuits under the new pay points.....that's a large group of pilots who will be against you! This is by 2015/16..... My figures are just guesses but BA get the split they want and a profitable short haul in a very short space of time. By 2020 that number will be way over one thousand!!! Your pay point 24 will then be up for negotiation. if you strike.....who cares the rest of the pilots will fly...why wouldn't they?? They get paid less and are on different contracts....

[Hand Solo]

Put simply they are non-negotiable because BA say they are. It takes two sides to negotiate. If one side is stonewalling then you don't get a negotiation. That's how it is. Unless you want to go on strike to force a negotiation now as well!

BA numbers on the B scale will inexorably rise, (as are the numbers of pilots on BARP, and as they rise so the emphasis in negotations shifts) but the point you are either still missing or are unwilling to accept, is that without the changes there is no more BA mainline recruitment. It's the end. The choice is thin end of the wedge or thick end of the wedge. No wedge is not on offer.

[ALLOW]

Also would it not make more sense purely from a business IAG point of view to make all the current pilots take a hit?? Surely this would save considerably more money for the airline. Over night all the pilots are now more efficient, not just the future ones...... This is surely the most logical option from a cost saving point of view. The current option is not a great revenue earner short term.

Surely when your future colleagues are taking minimum of a 280k pay cut it's a problem, I'm amazed you don't care......This will hurt you in the future. Be under no illusion!!!!! Dare I say you may never see pp24

[FlyingTinCans]

The new pay scales are non-negotiable

If you are part of a recognised trade union I think you will find they are negotiable under UK employment law.

Still no one has come up with the answer to the question:
How will reducing the pp by £750 a year of 800 joiners save more money than reducing the pp by say £200 a year of all 3000+ pilots?

[Time Traveller]

I'm actually a bit surprised the BAPS cohort hasn't reached a size where it asks management to freeze the DB pension or 'average salary' it, and distribute the benefit to ALL pilots. After all, savings have to be made in this competitive world.

Only a matter of time, as the proportions change.

[ALLOW]

Maybe because that's not the motive.....is it the tip of a greater plan to attack the A scalers in the future.

Overall I can not tell you how disappointed I am, i am so surprised at the response from the pilots within BA, I hope this is not the opinion of the greater workforce! I understand where you are coming from but try to look further down the road. I have seen this happen before. I'm off to reconsider wether I can accept a 280k drop over someone who sat beside me in the rivers but started earlier.........how disappointing.

It's all timing in this game!

[Hand Solo]

Originally Posted by ALLOW

Also would it not make more sense purely from a business IAG point of view to make all the current pilots take a hit?? Surely this would save considerably more money for the airline. Over night all the pilots are now more efficient, not just the future ones......

Incorrect, it doesn't do anything for efficiency at all. It saves money, but it doesn't make it efficient. BA's assertion is that shorthaul isn't profitable and they don't want an unprofitable business unit. Handing money over from all BA pilots doesn't do anything to make shorthaul more efficient.

This is surely the most logical option from a cost saving point of view. The current option is not a great revenue earner short term.

Why is it logical? They need to keep the current work force on board. Why do you think BA are only looking sort term? Sustainable short haul profitability beyond 2020 is the goal.

Surely when your future colleagues are taking minimum of a 280k pay cut it's a problem, I'm amazed you don't care......This will hurt you in the future. Be under no illusion!!!!! Dare I say you may never see pp24

They are not taking a pay cut. The money was never there and they base their decision to join on whats available at the time of joining. I'd have loved to be on the APS pension scheme and have retired at 50. It wasn't available when I joined. That's tough $hit. Life isn't fair. Your logic is flawed. Don't be surprised by the response from BA pilots, it's what you are going to get throughout the company because people are realists. They are not going to take a whopping pay cut to eke out the 24 point pay scale just a little bit longer. The system was set up for an era when people did 30 years at BA then retired. Now people can do 45 years at BA. No point kicking the can down the road. Change is inevitable.

Originally Posted by FTC

If you are part of a recognised trade union I think you will find they are negotiable under UK employment law.

Come on, that kind of barrack-room lawyering doesn't do you any favours. So BALPA say they want to negotiate the new pay scales and BA say no. What do you suggest would happen next in the real world?

How will reducing the pp by £750 a year of 800 joiners save more money than reducing the pp by say £200 a year of all 3000+ pilots?

Why are you limiting it to 800 new joiners? Do you think BA are only looking at savings over the next 800 joiners? Or do you think they are looking 20 years ahead, to a time when people retire at 70+? Do you think 3260 pilots in BA now can save more than new payscales for every new joiner over the next 20 years? Really?

[FlyingTinCans]

What do you suggest would happen next in the real world?

Conciliation, Arbitration.....

Why are you limiting it to 800 new joiners? Do you think BA are only looking at savings over the next 800 joiners? Or do you think they are looking 20 years ahead

Because that was the context of the discussion

BA's proposal is "New payscales, and save this amount per year, and make short haul profitable by 2015"

BA's recruitment drive was 800 new pilots over the next 5 years, hence by 2015 they will have approx 800 new pilots....

[ALLOW]

Ok let me repeat myself correctly.

I applied to BA presuming I would earn what I was told at the interview. That's pay point 24. Under that presumption the offer now is very very different from what I worked towards achieving! Hundreds of thousands of pounds different! Your logic is flawed, a lot of people are posing good questions that are being avoided
Also you my friend you are an asset! Let's say asset A costs willie 280k less than asset B then it is more efficient.
If I accept the offer I will be more efficient than you and all your other pp24 chums. I will make more money for BA because I cost less. That's what willie wants and that's what he will get. When we are the majority which will be quicker than you may think you will be the minority. Who will look out for you then?!?
I understand your looking out for yourself but you are not looking into the future!!!!!!!!!

Oh and I understand your point about me having an offer/option. Your correct and I'm afraid I probably won't accept. I really want to though.....

[Hand Solo]

Unfortunately in the real world conciliation and arbitration isn't something BA are going to waste time on. They don't need to. In the real world BA will say "Fine, we'll go on without you", rebrand bmi as BA Express and cease all recruitment into mainline. Then the likes of ALLOW et al will get a letter saying they are in the hold pool and these are the new BA Express pay scales. Conciliation and arbitration only happen when both sides have leverage. In this exchange one side has all the power.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see all new joiners on 24 point payscales with a nice DB pension and a welcoming pat on the head from the Chief Pilot. Unfortunately the opposition is eating our lunch, the government is trying to tax us out of business, social legislation is playing having with staff costs across the company, we've a ruthless, cunningly constructed and remote holding company pulling the strings and nobody, but nobody, has yet come up with a contstructive way to stop it other than saying "Duh, go on strike stupid". I think BA staff are probably the most experienced airline staff in the UK in terms of industrial action right now so we won't be taking any lectures on what that entails.

@ALLOW - yes, the offer is different from that which you applied for. You have to make the decision on whether you still want to apply or not based on the new reality, but let me explain something to you. BA only gets worse, not better. First there were APS pensions, 400 hrs flying per year and retirement at 50. Then came NAPS1, 500 hrs and retirement at 55. Then NAPS 2, 700 hrs, 55. Now BARP, 900 hours, retirement at 60+. Then something else will come along and we'll be working til 70 and flying 1000 hours. If you join BA, all the way along that road you'll be taking hits, a little here, a little there, pensions down, productivity up, pay cuts here and there. Bar your increments and a promotion there is no up. Only down. So when you get your first hit, then your second, then you third, you won't be inclined to suddenly make a huge sacrifice for someone who has yet to join because you know full wel' there'll be plenty more opportunities to 'give' just around the corner. Yep, it'll happen to you too. And I'll throw in one more thing for free. I'll have a guess that you've never been involved in any sort of industrial action, because if you had you'd know it's not quite as easy as saying "We outnumber you so we're going to steal all your beans", because by the time you are in a position to steal the beans of the guy above you, there'll be lots of guys below you who are in a position to steal your beans too, and management won't give a damn. That my friend is the way of the airline industry today.

[Fate Hunter]

They are not taking a pay cut. The money was never there and they base their decision to join on whats available at the time of joining. I'd have loved to be on the APS pension scheme and have retired at 50. It wasn't available when I joined. That's tough $hit. Life isn't fair. Your logic is flawed. Don't be surprised by the response from BA pilots, it's what you are going to get throughout the company because people are realists. They are not going to take a whopping pay cut to eke out the 24 point pay scale just a little bit longer. The system was set up for an era when people did 30 years at BA then retired. Now people can do 45 years at BA. No point kicking the can down the road. Change is inevitable.

I agree with most things you post, but do please bear in mind those of us who have committed to BA, have resigned from jobs, are investing £84k plus in the FPP on the basis of the payscales as we understood them, only to be joining in 2013/2014 on something different.

It is galling, though understandable

[Hand Solo]

Yep, that ones a $hit sandwich.

[The Blu Riband]

There is no good news here for any of us.

BA pilots are to vote on a bad deal.

Do I vote to work a bit harder and earn a bit less with the hope that BA pilots have a decent chance of promotion thru expansion, maybe employ some more pilots, and keep our flying jobs "in-house"?

Or do I vote to reject this deal in the vain hope that BA will either come up with a better offer, or that we will try and maintain our current t&c 's until the bitter end.

Which do you recommend? It's a simple yes or no!