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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

Old 4th Jan 2012, 17:54
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Would the changes just be applicable to the new contracts for joining pilots or/and for the interview and sim assessments ?
No idea, I suspect it will be those starting Mar '12 or later.

The details are not 100% clear, after all, only released today and to be voted on. There is only one change affecting only new joiners and it is stretching the pay scales over more years. I'm not going to post the details (someone will I am sure), but it's not hard to work out given the 10yr CRA increase in BA that made the old payscales prety unsustainable

The theory is that BA will be a better place to be employed than the alternative. I can only agree, and have much to thank BALPA for. Were it not for BALPA, then I reckon you'd have found new joiners post Mar '12 not joining "BA", but it's new LoCo LHR subsidiary...

As an aside, given the steep seniority gradient in BA, it will be interesting to see where new joiners and the bmi pilots fit into the seniority list. It might be a particularly inopportune time to delay a start date with BA by 1 week

NoD
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 17:56
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New Entrant Contract

Can anyone shed any light or give an educated guess on how guys in the pool would be affected by the the proposed contract changes for entrants 'from march 2012? Specifically, how would it affect those guys expecting an offer/contract between now and March who are, obviously, starting after the cut-off?

Any previous experience of contract changes gratefully received.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 18:16
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The only detail released is all new joiners to be on a new pay point scale from march 2012. As NoD has mentioned, still to be voted on. There is a lot of information still to be released regarding this and other significant matters before the ballots go out. Interesting times.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 18:47
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Does this mean a difference in pay or a difference in pay scale increments?
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 18:55
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So the rumour I heard was that the number of pay points will increase to something like 34 up from 24 at present, but the top point and bottom points will not change. So in simple terms it takes longer to reach the top. I guess this makes sense given the change in retirement age. This is for all new joiners. There will also be slight reductions in overtime and annual leave for all. The changes are an unfortunate side-effect of O'Leary's campaign of destruction in pilot salaries.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 19:11
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Haven't there been courses offered for March and April 2012 already? So surely it would be for May 2012 onwards?
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 19:17
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Why the secrecy?

A little embarrassed about looking after yourself and creating an A- Scale?
Same as the old guys keeping the final salary deals and new guys getting a DC.
Effect would be huge, hundreds of thousands when pensions are included, a disaster for new joiners and current employees will lose out too, this is just the start, you won't keep up with inflation and one day there will be more of the A- than the A and they'll play them against you
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 19:37
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also 28 days leave down from 30
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 19:42
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How about for people who have already signed contracts?
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 19:45
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What I really fail to understand is how a group would see themselves as united and looking after all, even tho they screw the new guys who in a few days / months they will be asking to join the union and stand united? This happened at Flybe, and if you don't know then I can tell you there aren't many happy bods there at any point on the seniority list.

Theres no pay for age / experience when joining BA, you look at the pay scales and think, ok ill have to wait 5 - 10 years to get to a respectable level, this makes it much harder.

From what I hear everyone in BA has been running scared of a BA express scenario and now management are pushing through a rushed deal, taking advantage of the fear and playing on your instinct for self preservation.

Mark my words, they'll come back for more, you need to grow some balls and draw the line.

Personally I will be declining my offer and heading east, those with command time can follow when you like, FOs a long way down the list at BA are in a bit of trouble I would suggest old pay scale or no
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 20:11
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It would appear the new payscale conditions will apply to all new starters from 1st March. I guess if you've already signed a contract it will effectively be re-written. Another point worthy of consideration is how & when the BMI guys will be integrated. A delay of even a few days could cost you 300+ places on the seniority list!
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 20:19
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Well said Hiwing. When I was doing the selection for readmission to the hold pool a few years back, I made a snide comment about the BACCs pulling up the drawbridge on NAPS and leaving new joiners on what was then an even worse DC pension scheme than it is now. At the time I think posties, or gas fitters or something, were on strike to prevent similar cuts to the pensions of future colleagues...

The PFO wasnt altogether a surprise; not that I much cared anyway.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 20:46
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TT - hardly a surprise you didn't get into BA. If I pitched up at an interview and commented that a union should be fighting the closure of a pension scheme that was hugely in deficit, with no short or medium term likelihood of returning to surplus and which was only getting worse, I'd expect to be politely shown the door too. Denial of reality does not a great pilot make.

HiWing - fighting talk is all well and good, but it's just that - talk. It's not a matter of balls, it's a matter of knowing when they've got your balls in a vice and there's nothing you can do about it. The courts in the UK are not very strike friendly, and there's every chance BA can legally circumvent any Scope agreements using bmi, whose pilots I have no doubt would be only too willing to assist. As for secrecy, the info, and there was precious little of that, was only released around 3pm today, and most BA pilots have better things to be doing right now than come on here to share it. If you're planning on heading east you'll soon find out what happens when management play hardball.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 22:17
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As a hold pooler, who looks likely to get stung by this new pay deal, I wanted to pass comment because none of us are able to have a voice within the BA internal negotiations -

The BA management may dress it up that it is fair to spread a 24 year pay scale across 34 years due to the higher retirement age. Without really thinking about it this seems reasonable. But it absolutely is not. In 15 years time, a 40 year old guy supporting a family still needs the same level of income as a 40 year old guy in the same situation today. Under the new proposals it seems very likely that this won't be the case due to the spreading. This is nothing other than a pay cut for new joiners. The impact on a career income and pension will most probably be enormous.

So a pay cut for new joiners and more hours at work for everyone. I know it is difficult economic times, but as far as I am aware BA is still competing well and generating profits. To me it looks like a blatant management attempt to exploit the situation and portray a problem that isn't really there.

I hope that some current BA pilots will keep the hold poolers in the loop with what is said at any meetings with management. Be interesting to hear
if they can offer any solid numbers to back up what they say.

I sincerely hope that the pay cut isn't passed by the current BA pilots. Especially as it would seem that the management are not exactly offering anything in return. For me, it could be the death knell for the piloting career.

Last edited by Full Left Rudder; 4th Jan 2012 at 22:34.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 22:53
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As a hold pooler, who looks likely to get stung by this new pay deal, I wanted to pass comment because none of us are able to have a voice within the BA internal negotiations -

The BA management may dress it up that it is fair to spread a 24 year pay scale across 34 years due to the higher retirement age. Without really thinking about it this seems reasonable. But it absolutely is not. In 15 years time, a 40 year old guy supporting a family still needs the same level of income as a 40 year old guy in the same situation today. Under the new proposals it seems very likely that this won't be the case due to the spreading. This is nothing other than a pay cut for new joiners. The impact on a career income and pension will most probably be enormous.

So a pay cut for new joiners and more hours at work for everyone. I know it is difficult economic times, but as far as I am aware BA is still competing well and generating profits. To me it looks like a blatant management attempt to exploit the situation and portray a problem that isn't really there.

I hope that some current BA pilots will keep the hold poolers in the loop with what is said at any meetings with management. Be interesting to hear
if they can offer any solid numbers to back up what they say.

I sincerely hope that the pay cut isn't passed by the current BA pilots. Especially as it would seem that the management are not exactly offering anything in return. For me, it could be the death knell for the piloting career.
Spot on. Much more serious change than first meets the eye.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 23:05
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I understand the dismay of those in the hold pool, but please bear in mind that if we vote no to the introduction of the 34 pay point scale (amongst other cost savings that are being asked of us) and therefore reject the BMI integration then the result is BMI is set-up as a stand alone low-cost airline at LHR, that would over time inherit the majority of the current BA LH&SH route network. There would be no more recruitment into BA mainline, you would be joining the new low-cost growth vehicle. Have a quick look into what is on offer at Iberia Express to find out what the T&Cs would be like then. It isn't a case of looking after ourselves only to shaft those who join from march onwards - this isn't as simple as some of you seem to think. We are between a rock and a hard place.

HiWing - what Yellow Pen said.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 23:12
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Full Left Rudder,

Congratulations on joining the hold pool, I hope you're not left swimming too long.

When you do join and meet the protagonists you will soon realise they care not one jot whether a 40 year pilot old can support his family or not. Nor what is fair and what is not. It's a business decision based on spreadsheets and assumptions, its clinical and in no way personal. The spreadsheets currently show a 20 year old pilot can join, hit £185,000 by age 44 and then stay there for another 21 years. Whether we like it or not they've got a big problem with that.

The letter we have received today makes absolutely clear IAG's intentions. We are voting on a package of proposals which if agreed will mean BMI being intergrated into the BA Opco. We are voting on the package as a whole and individual bits are not for negotiation.

If we vote no, IAG WILL NOT intergrate BMI. BA Express will be born. You will likely never be offered a BA contract. You will be offered T & C's worse than both BA and BMI. All recruitment to mainline will cease.

I have a vote, what do you think I should do?

They hold all the cards this time. They don't need to offer anything in return. Sometimes they just have you over a barrel.

It may be of some consolation but the pensionable pay scales will remain unchanged (24 points). Also continuation of the pilot share plan.

Edit - Crossed with Bitmorerightrudder

Last edited by Super Stall; 4th Jan 2012 at 23:32.
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Old 4th Jan 2012, 23:59
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What a disappointment; inevitable but disappointing nontheless.

I fully understand the position between rock and a hard place in which BALPA must have found itself, and entirely agree that the creation of BA Express / alternative airlines is to be avoided for the future of the career in BA.

However, while the paypoints have become expensive for those reaching PP24 and sitting there for a long time, it is a less common scenario once the slight bulge has retired, DEPs form a greater proportion of new joiners than they did in the 70s/80s, and cadets are now typically older. Furthermore, there have been no cadets for 10 years and those of us in the new FPP group are far more diverse (in age) than the Hamble groups had been.

Thus, while one might imagine that the "triangle" of stepped earnings has been redistributed over a longer career, the cumulative effect of those lost earnings is not insignificant for those of us who might once have reached PP24, but now will not reach PP34 ever...unless the retirement age moves out to 75...

Well, at least my pension will be portable and my own funds in my own pot...
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 00:04
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For you guys/gals waiting for courses a tough spot to be in but this has been coming for a while. The younger you are the better. Keep in mind that this is now by far the best and likely most secure employer in UK aviation with what will be a massive hold on LHR for years to come. The roster stability and other benefits (not mentioned here) are still intact.

It has been made clear that pensionable pay scales will not be touched so you and all BA pilots currently in the defined contribution scheme will have the same pension contributions over a given time. This is important.

Congrats to all those getting in. There will be plenty more recruitment going forward and many more large aircraft arriving to be crewed.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 00:36
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So all current BA pilots stay on the 24pp scale, and all new joiners go onto the 34pp scale - effectively a 'B Scale'. How about upgrades?

How will that dramatically lower BA's salary expenditure when the vast majority of pilots will be on the 'A Scale'?

Any deal should include ALL pilots, a B scale will only split the pilot workforce and the union. I for one will be leaving BALPA if this deal is voted through when my BA start date comes - no doubt after march 12!

Surely increasing the pp by 5 years for ALL BA pilots and having one payscale and UNITY is better than increasing it by 10 for the relatively small group new joiners and creating jealousy and resentment?
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