British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1
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British Airways Press Office
Today’s confirmation of further rises in APD is completely at odds with the Government’s declared aim of creating the foundations for growth.
British Airways had been planning to create approximately 800 new jobs in 2012 to support growth of our flying programme.
Against an already difficult economic background, these fresh tax hikes make it impossible for us to proceed with this level of recruitment, so we expect to reduce this number by about half.
We will also postpone our plan to bring an extra Boeing 747 into service next summer, and review the use of two others.
This will have consequences for our flying schedule and will affect suppliers in Wales, Northern Ireland and England, undermining efforts to sustain employment levels.
APD is by far the highest aviation tax in the world. It is a tax on economic activity – a tax on jobs in airlines, airports, UK tourism and leisure, and many supplier industries. It is also a tax on doing business with Britain.
To provide the transport links vital for success in a global economy, UK business needs a thriving aviation sector. APD is not creating the foundations for growth. It is destroying them.
Keith Williams, British Airways’ chief executive, said: “The Government talks about creating the conditions for jobs and growth – but the reality is the opposite. Its tax policy, which is uniquely hostile to aviation, is costing jobs and growth at British Airways.
The rises in APD have left us with no alternative but to cut back on our planned recruitment. Many of these opportunities would have been for young people. At a time of high unemployment for new graduates and school-leavers, it is deeply regrettable that these additional tax increases have propelled us into this decision.”
British Airways had been planning to create approximately 800 new jobs in 2012 to support growth of our flying programme.
Against an already difficult economic background, these fresh tax hikes make it impossible for us to proceed with this level of recruitment, so we expect to reduce this number by about half.
We will also postpone our plan to bring an extra Boeing 747 into service next summer, and review the use of two others.
This will have consequences for our flying schedule and will affect suppliers in Wales, Northern Ireland and England, undermining efforts to sustain employment levels.
APD is by far the highest aviation tax in the world. It is a tax on economic activity – a tax on jobs in airlines, airports, UK tourism and leisure, and many supplier industries. It is also a tax on doing business with Britain.
To provide the transport links vital for success in a global economy, UK business needs a thriving aviation sector. APD is not creating the foundations for growth. It is destroying them.
Keith Williams, British Airways’ chief executive, said: “The Government talks about creating the conditions for jobs and growth – but the reality is the opposite. Its tax policy, which is uniquely hostile to aviation, is costing jobs and growth at British Airways.
The rises in APD have left us with no alternative but to cut back on our planned recruitment. Many of these opportunities would have been for young people. At a time of high unemployment for new graduates and school-leavers, it is deeply regrettable that these additional tax increases have propelled us into this decision.”
ends
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That's great.
it feels like 2008 all over again. I don't think I could do it a third time!
It was nice while it lasted, godspeed folks.
Last edited by B-HVY; 6th Dec 2011 at 21:06.
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I would heartily recommend a deep breath and step back. At the beginning of Aug there were circa 100 people in the hold pool. With courses fishing some out and the ramping up of recruitment, there was a modest increase of the hold pool up to around 150 by end of Sep.
Even if the figures above vary by +- 20%, it would mean that recruitment still has to occur to fill the required vacancies, so talk of anyone in the hold pool being unfortunate is perhaps premature at best.
To emphasise the positives, there are courses for TR and non-TR folk occurring and indeed programmed for the forseeable.
I entered the pool in Aug and have been warned that a start date in Q2 2012 is on the cards. This merely shows that the guys running recruitment have a grip on numbers and courses.
IMHO, to meet the revised recruitment targets would mean a cessation of recruitment when the target is hit, not a continuance with those already having passed interview and the sim cx remaining swimming until the 12 month elapses. That would be a colossal waste of money.
Well done and chin up to all the swimmers and to those in the application process - stick with it until someone of authority states the game is up.
Even if the figures above vary by +- 20%, it would mean that recruitment still has to occur to fill the required vacancies, so talk of anyone in the hold pool being unfortunate is perhaps premature at best.
To emphasise the positives, there are courses for TR and non-TR folk occurring and indeed programmed for the forseeable.
I entered the pool in Aug and have been warned that a start date in Q2 2012 is on the cards. This merely shows that the guys running recruitment have a grip on numbers and courses.
IMHO, to meet the revised recruitment targets would mean a cessation of recruitment when the target is hit, not a continuance with those already having passed interview and the sim cx remaining swimming until the 12 month elapses. That would be a colossal waste of money.
Well done and chin up to all the swimmers and to those in the application process - stick with it until someone of authority states the game is up.
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Irrespective of who is to blame.
[creep]
Neither bunch have been much cop, as the previous lot failed to squirrel away funds and reduce debt through one of the biggest booms of the 20th century I don't think they are entirely 'blameless' as much as the current lot are entirely 'to blame', the approval of all the mass transport schemes came as a final flush when they realised they had about as much chance of winning the election as the devil riding to work on a snow mobile.
Anyway on with the thread.
[/creep]
History has always shown that the speed of economic recovery is proportional to the depth of the preceeding recession. APD was, indeed, factored in to the costings of a recruitment drive. Remember, this current round of recruiting is driven not only by expansion but also that the current CRA is rapidly approaching and those retiring will need to be replaced regardless of fleet expansion.
As Wiggy has stated most companies have planned on a slow slog to recovery. It is unlikely that BA has anticipated that the current economic storm would blow for quite so long. I understand fully that they, the airlines, are pressurising the Government to allieviate a punitive tax on an industry that already generates a large chunk of revenue.
BA will continue to expand the fleets, the question is now over how long? The FPP could also come under scrutiny with regards to delaying and reducing numbers, who knows?
BA will want to be ready to exploit any recovery if an when it happens. In order to do that they will need hulls and crews available at the right time. Lets just hope that punitive taxes to leave our own country don't drive too many customers overseas to FRA/CDG/AMS etc. prior to boarding their non-APD long haul flight.
Good luck to all the swimmers/applicants.
[creep]
Neither bunch have been much cop, as the previous lot failed to squirrel away funds and reduce debt through one of the biggest booms of the 20th century I don't think they are entirely 'blameless' as much as the current lot are entirely 'to blame', the approval of all the mass transport schemes came as a final flush when they realised they had about as much chance of winning the election as the devil riding to work on a snow mobile.
Anyway on with the thread.
[/creep]
History has always shown that the speed of economic recovery is proportional to the depth of the preceeding recession. APD was, indeed, factored in to the costings of a recruitment drive. Remember, this current round of recruiting is driven not only by expansion but also that the current CRA is rapidly approaching and those retiring will need to be replaced regardless of fleet expansion.
As Wiggy has stated most companies have planned on a slow slog to recovery. It is unlikely that BA has anticipated that the current economic storm would blow for quite so long. I understand fully that they, the airlines, are pressurising the Government to allieviate a punitive tax on an industry that already generates a large chunk of revenue.
BA will continue to expand the fleets, the question is now over how long? The FPP could also come under scrutiny with regards to delaying and reducing numbers, who knows?
BA will want to be ready to exploit any recovery if an when it happens. In order to do that they will need hulls and crews available at the right time. Lets just hope that punitive taxes to leave our own country don't drive too many customers overseas to FRA/CDG/AMS etc. prior to boarding their non-APD long haul flight.
Good luck to all the swimmers/applicants.
Oh drat. There goes that job prospect. 
I would imagine sufficient people have already been added to the existing pool to satisfy the revised recruitment demand, so I shan't be holding my breath for a New Year sim assessment.
And I suspect those splashing around in the pool might be in for a long wait...
I would imagine sufficient people have already been added to the existing pool to satisfy the revised recruitment demand, so I shan't be holding my breath for a New Year sim assessment.
And I suspect those splashing around in the pool might be in for a long wait...
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"BA" (IAG) made a very strong pitch to HMG to over APD, especially the Carib/W Coast anomaly... and must have had some hope that it might get addressed.
I believe the recent "pilot moves" bid process was based on these 3 747s flying, and their (possible) withdrawal will affect this, and all the way down to recruitment.
I would also offer the fact that there is no such legal entity as "British Airways". That is only in effect a brand / sub-section of IAG. If IAG want to expand / contract in overall terms, it has the option of 2 hubs at which to effect this. Their whinge at APD in the UK can mean more than just "our business cannot grow", it just gives them the excuse to shift said expansion to MAD, and blame HMG as a bonus
I believe the recent "pilot moves" bid process was based on these 3 747s flying, and their (possible) withdrawal will affect this, and all the way down to recruitment.
I would also offer the fact that there is no such legal entity as "British Airways". That is only in effect a brand / sub-section of IAG. If IAG want to expand / contract in overall terms, it has the option of 2 hubs at which to effect this. Their whinge at APD in the UK can mean more than just "our business cannot grow", it just gives them the excuse to shift said expansion to MAD, and blame HMG as a bonus
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I'm in a strange position having passed stage 1 and am currently waiting for the Sim check but as yet there is no definite date. If there is 150 people currently in the pool, will they not just simply keep the flow of people moving including those in my position then simply turn of the spigot when 400 is reached?
From reading their statement it would seem that the new cadet program is likely to suffer and not the DEP scheme. This makes sense in this uncertain economic climate, you want a known quantity that can get in the seat and fly as soon as possible not somebody who is going to take 18 months to train.
From reading their statement it would seem that the new cadet program is likely to suffer and not the DEP scheme. This makes sense in this uncertain economic climate, you want a known quantity that can get in the seat and fly as soon as possible not somebody who is going to take 18 months to train.
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Trying to be positive.....
RTFQ (or RTF Article), this is just like the verbal reasoning we all did!!! It says BA were planning 800 jobs next year, nowhere does it mention pilots. With an airline expanding there's more than just pilots they need to recruit! Of course if a 747 isn't coming back and possibly 2 going then things will slow down including internal movement creating the space for us to fill. The last literature I read about the pilot recruitment at BA, the 800 PILOTS were to be spread out over 3/4 years... not 2012. Even the Cadets take at least 18 months to train so thats 2013 rite there at the earliest! ADP is nothing new! There are so many variables! bmi acquisition if it goes ahead will be the next one, even if they keep all the crews BA are not going to be slot holding on minimal 319/20/21 routes! They'll convert as many as possible to new LH dests which is far more crew hungry! This will require more pilots than at the current plans!
So it is in essence a bit of a blow downstairs but until the recruitment team send out e-mails to everyone in the pool with a 'Dear John Sorry Guys' then nothing has changed bar a slightly longer wait! Aviation is all about timing, this is just a speed bump in that otherwise solid plan!
Hang on in there and good luck to everyone whichever stage of the process you are!!! TP
P.s read this article!
British Airways Bid for BMI to Plug Asia Gaps From Korea to KL - Bloomberg
RTFQ (or RTF Article), this is just like the verbal reasoning we all did!!! It says BA were planning 800 jobs next year, nowhere does it mention pilots. With an airline expanding there's more than just pilots they need to recruit! Of course if a 747 isn't coming back and possibly 2 going then things will slow down including internal movement creating the space for us to fill. The last literature I read about the pilot recruitment at BA, the 800 PILOTS were to be spread out over 3/4 years... not 2012. Even the Cadets take at least 18 months to train so thats 2013 rite there at the earliest! ADP is nothing new! There are so many variables! bmi acquisition if it goes ahead will be the next one, even if they keep all the crews BA are not going to be slot holding on minimal 319/20/21 routes! They'll convert as many as possible to new LH dests which is far more crew hungry! This will require more pilots than at the current plans!
So it is in essence a bit of a blow downstairs but until the recruitment team send out e-mails to everyone in the pool with a 'Dear John Sorry Guys' then nothing has changed bar a slightly longer wait! Aviation is all about timing, this is just a speed bump in that otherwise solid plan!
Hang on in there and good luck to everyone whichever stage of the process you are!!! TP
P.s read this article!
British Airways Bid for BMI to Plug Asia Gaps From Korea to KL - Bloomberg
Last edited by tp320777; 7th Dec 2011 at 07:14.
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tp et al...
Yes - cannot see it referring to Cadets, since it is a 2012 announcement / flying program issue.
3 x 747 is approx 50 pilot jobs at current establishment / fleet.
I am pretty sure we will not be laying off bmi crews to replace with recruits 
Apart from the ethics / business (lack of) sense, the courts might just have something to say about it. And why would we convert the bmi slots to LH in such short order, when we currently fly many SH routes. Yes - it is an aim, but it will take time to establish the routes, aircraft, and most of all, invemestment in the aircraft.
Well, it contains some absolute errors in fact (e.g. re S Korea), so would not see it much other than a space filler, than a strategic "insight" 
I would suggest this announcement was as much news to the recruitment team as it was to you and I, and will slow things down in the short / medium term. Particuarly if your desire / CV is for the 744. Oh, and from last time, there might even be some swaps of aircraft type i.e. recruited for / job offer for 744, turn up on Day 1 and find you are directed to an Airbus cockpit
But overall, it is not a massive game changer... just a slow down from something that seems pretty slow anyway. My concern is the bigger effect - a drift of investment / expansion to the MAD branch of IAG.
Yes - cannot see it referring to Cadets, since it is a 2012 announcement / flying program issue.
nowhere does it mention pilots
bmi acquisition if it goes ahead will be the next one, even if they keep all the crews BA are not going to be slot holding on minimal 319/20/21 routes! They'll convert as many as possible to new LH dests which is far more crew hungry! This will require more pilots than at the current plans!
Apart from the ethics / business (lack of) sense, the courts might just have something to say about it. And why would we convert the bmi slots to LH in such short order, when we currently fly many SH routes. Yes - it is an aim, but it will take time to establish the routes, aircraft, and most of all, invemestment in the aircraft.
P.s read this article!
I would suggest this announcement was as much news to the recruitment team as it was to you and I, and will slow things down in the short / medium term. Particuarly if your desire / CV is for the 744. Oh, and from last time, there might even be some swaps of aircraft type i.e. recruited for / job offer for 744, turn up on Day 1 and find you are directed to an Airbus cockpit
But overall, it is not a massive game changer... just a slow down from something that seems pretty slow anyway. My concern is the bigger effect - a drift of investment / expansion to the MAD branch of IAG.
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Sorry guys....asking the same question again, can anyone tell me how long I have swimming in the pool before I get too 'wrinkly' and have to re-apply?! So far I've heard 12,18 and even 24 months?!? Can anyone confirm!?!
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I got ejected after 12 months, but that was quite a few years ago. A friend from the round before the present one, was ejected after 18 months, but I think that was an extension from 12mo. (Neither of us now work for BA)
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 7th Dec 2011 at 10:48.
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I believe its 12 months from the day you join the pool, but don't quote me on that. I can't imagine they are just going to stop the recruitment just like that. Does anyone know how many people have been recruited up to now?
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Thanks guys.......as I said in a previous post, I was expecting a long wait anyway.....with this news I'm now half expecting to have to re-apply!!!! Oh well......time will tell!! :-)
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Hi BP,
Technically its 12 months from the date of interview. This tends to be a little flexible to the date of your sim.
However, the last time I was swimming we were extended to the date of our sims, then a further 6 months then we sank.
Total time in hold pool then was about 20 months.
According to the recruitment team during the Q&A, it will be 12 months from date of interview again (possibly extending to sim). However, this time they are trying to tie the recruitment and course planning together with greater precision.
Reading between the lines that means "hold pool" should equal "course planned in at some point in the next 12 - 18 months notice period dependant" on this round of selection.
However, nothing is certain.....
Technically its 12 months from the date of interview. This tends to be a little flexible to the date of your sim.
However, the last time I was swimming we were extended to the date of our sims, then a further 6 months then we sank.
Total time in hold pool then was about 20 months.
According to the recruitment team during the Q&A, it will be 12 months from date of interview again (possibly extending to sim). However, this time they are trying to tie the recruitment and course planning together with greater precision.
Reading between the lines that means "hold pool" should equal "course planned in at some point in the next 12 - 18 months notice period dependant" on this round of selection.
However, nothing is certain.....
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I have been in the hold pool since the beginning of July and am anxious to say the least. In fact I don't know anyone ahead of me now without a course date. The last course date that I am aware of is the end of Feb. Im hoping a call is imminent.......
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Hi BS
Thanks for that! All sounds very flexible really!! I interviewed in August so my clock is ticking!! Ha! Sorry to hear about your bad luck the last time around! Fingers crossed for all in the pool that none of us have to experience what happened to you and many others!!
Thanks for that! All sounds very flexible really!! I interviewed in August so my clock is ticking!! Ha! Sorry to hear about your bad luck the last time around! Fingers crossed for all in the pool that none of us have to experience what happened to you and many others!!
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Hi all just to keep people informed of where they are in the pool I'm still swimming, been in since mid may with 737 rating and enough hours to go on a long haul fleet. I'm not aware that there are too many people who are still swimming that have been in longer than I have.
Stay positive folks!
Stay positive folks!