BA or Virgin? Which is better?
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Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not just me but thanks for your concern.
If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation
I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.
If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation
I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.
Last edited by RexBanner; 8th Nov 2018 at 16:56.
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Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not me but thanks for your concern.
Totally agree with this- I'm sure its not you. Very similar experience. Think some need to be a little more pragmatic, for sure. Usually when you ask what airline he/she has come from and the response is cadet.. haha.
Sure its just bad luck- many are lovely guys/girls.
Seems as though the division in the company is what makes it perhaps a more difficult place to work at. You only have to browse the Balpa forum for a few minutes to see quite how divided we are... makes it easy when pay/roster negotiations come around!
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If you mean Brian C, then I agree, he’s s fabulous trainer and a close personal friend of mine. We joined on the same day and did our 757 course together.
Your list of gripes are wierd I agree, but I’m not sure they’d wind me up to a great degree. Maybe bring it up in the PFDB? You may get an insight into his or her thinking? And if you brought up how it pissed you off, they may change their style in future. If you didn’t say anything, then they won’t ever know.
Your list of gripes are wierd I agree, but I’m not sure they’d wind me up to a great degree. Maybe bring it up in the PFDB? You may get an insight into his or her thinking? And if you brought up how it pissed you off, they may change their style in future. If you didn’t say anything, then they won’t ever know.
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I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation
If it did, then the guy is a buffoon, and probably not just as a result of BA's training dept. In my opinion, the trainers I've had over the last few years have been nothing but pragmatic and sensible.
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I agree the post flight debrief should be used for more of this stuff but most the time I just let it slide for the simple reason that BA is so big that you’re unlikely to see them again so it’s easier to just scurry away into the night with zero confrontation. I admit that’s a fault of mine.
Stocious yes that actually happened. I sh1t you not.
Stocious yes that actually happened. I sh1t you not.
Haha nice one. I actually had a chat with a trainer about this issue (the best trainer on the Airbus at BA in my opinion and amongst the best guys I’ve ever flown with period with the initials BC) and he agreed with me. Not only did he agree with me but he said it’s a known issue on the fleet and that every DEP pilot he speaks to from easyJet says the exact same thing, as he makes a point of asking them specifically. FACoff has agreed with me. I might be blowing my own trumpet, you can sneak through one selection process if you’re subpar but you don’t pass every single airline selection you’ve ever been through (five in total) if you’re not at least a half decent operator. So no, it’s not just me but thanks for your concern.
If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation
I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.
If you:
A) watch as a skipper ties himself in knots trying to justify a descent below MSA when it’s gin clear CAVOK out the window
B) are denied flying a visual approach in the same conditions (by a trainer no less) because “it hasn’t been briefed”
C) watch the skipper jump out of his skin after hitting the slightest bit of turbulence
D) Stick the brake fans on with temperatures just edging over 100 degrees with over an hour turnaround
E) have endless discussion about when you’re going to put the gear down (which believe me doesn’t happen in any other airline)
F) are told it is not allowed to plan to land with autobrake off (again this nonsense was spouted to me by a trainer)
G) have to put pen to paper to do a landing distance calculation onto the longest runway in the country in a light A319
H) set approach gates which are utterly pointless because they will go out the window the moment ATC give you radar vectors
I) Run the entire critical data entry process again because during the Before Starts you’ve seen that the CVR push button isn’t on. So now you’re doing it all for the benefit of the AAIB crash investigation
I could go on but if you are faced with most of those on at least 50% of the time you go to work and you can keep your patience with it, I salute you sir. You’ve either got tremendous patience or you’ve never been at an airline where you’re treated like an adult.
Have flown with BC - toppest bloke -
A lot of the things that Rex mentions are horribly familiar. Luckily, there are enough people who’ve done time in other airlines or professions to water down those that are institutionalised to ”the BA way”. It may be a bit of a generalisation, but if your oppo hasn’t flown for anyone else, or done anything outside aviation, then it's often a less than pleasant experience.
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I agree with a lot of what Rex says. Descent below MSA on a clear day, brake fans, auto brake, turbulence, and my favourite - landing distance calculations for Heathrow in a single aisle airbus. All very silly.
Briefing has got a little bit out of hand at BA recently. Ironically the one thing I would brief is a visual approach. None of us are practiced at it and I've seen it messed up, several times, by people with far more flying experience than me simply because they hadn't given much of a thought to what they were gonna do after asking for the flight directors to be switched off. It's one of those manoeuvres we all like to assume we can do but the truth is, we're not remotely practiced at it. Especially on long haul.
Briefing has got a little bit out of hand at BA recently. Ironically the one thing I would brief is a visual approach. None of us are practiced at it and I've seen it messed up, several times, by people with far more flying experience than me simply because they hadn't given much of a thought to what they were gonna do after asking for the flight directors to be switched off. It's one of those manoeuvres we all like to assume we can do but the truth is, we're not remotely practiced at it. Especially on long haul.
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Absolutely spot on. I never knew how difficult a single sector could be made until I joined BA - I regularly find myself in total disbelief as the guy next to me conducts a 30 minute brief on a straight forward approach in CAVOK conditions. Even returning to LHR can be turned into a long drawn out affair. As you say, an astonishing lack of pragmatism.
Some places on the network obviously warrant proper discussion, and I appreciate many people have also come from long haul where briefings presumably become a novelty. But we're flying 6 day blocks, comprising anything up to 20 sectors, and you have to adjust accordingly. Quizzing me about the rad alt or MSA on our 5th approach into Heathrow will a) totally disengage me and b) make me want to punch you.
It's definitely something I think ought to be addressed in the training department as I’ve found it makes for an altogether more tiring day - especially if you’re with one of these people for 4 or 5 days in a row.
Some places on the network obviously warrant proper discussion, and I appreciate many people have also come from long haul where briefings presumably become a novelty. But we're flying 6 day blocks, comprising anything up to 20 sectors, and you have to adjust accordingly. Quizzing me about the rad alt or MSA on our 5th approach into Heathrow will a) totally disengage me and b) make me want to punch you.
It's definitely something I think ought to be addressed in the training department as I’ve found it makes for an altogether more tiring day - especially if you’re with one of these people for 4 or 5 days in a row.
As for the discussion about who is better, unless you have a solid job offer from both it’s a redundant argument most people don’t get the choice. All I will say is having worked for 4 bankrupt companies I have never felt more secure in my job and with a family to look after nothing in the world is more valuable than that.
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Rex - tragically I can relate to nearly all of those. Perhaps my CRM is lacking but I also find people take the open question concept way too far. A recent favourite, "what do you think about use of the APU today?". Umm, let's use it...?
I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief.
What can I say, we're either flying for different airlines or you've been very lucky indeed. The other day, my skipper successfully briefed for the entirety of a 50 minute cruise. I was ready to hang myself by the end of it. When, over a beer later that evening, I tentatively brought up the more 'abbreviated' briefing style at my previous airline, he was incredulous. As I recall his words were - "that's appalling, there's always something to brief. If not, pick the QRH up and go through some memory actions together". And guess what, that's exactly what we did going into Heathrow. After he'd briefed me about Heathrow of course.
I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief.
The old ones are the best
Hamble course mate brand new on 400 as chief trainer blxxxcks long time SFO for moving heading bug whilst sir is giving his life history to pax...standard operating procedures boyo!
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
PS I am frog..and the Welsh have some lovely sheep
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
PS I am frog..and the Welsh have some lovely sheep
Last edited by blind pew; 9th Nov 2018 at 14:23.
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Hamble course mate brand new on 400 as chief trainer blxxxcks long time SFO for moving heading bug whilst sir is giving his life history to pax...standard operating procedures boyo!
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
short final into a Caribbean island disconnects auto throttle with toga button....astonished Welshman manages to grab three of the four levers.
Fortunately let's the three go as 400 doesn't continue flying in a straight line with outer on full chat.
Cried with laughter when SFO told me the story.
Later went onto something in a frog airline..told me the frogs can t fly..might have a point there after 447.
At the risk off continuing off topic:
Yep, but it’s not something that has been permanently built into the “BA way”, it goes in phases and I think ATM we are at “peak brief” ...and don’t forget a “bespoke landing distance calculation”, even into LHR, CAVOK with 10 knots down the strip “because somebody got caught out in Leeds Bradford once....”. I think it’ll change again soon....
And to be fair to BA there are those who still try to give the “Bovingdon , 27L ...” style of brief
into base, OTOH if you are not a regular into some places (which covers a lot of longhaul) is it just possible a snappy LoCo style brief is not appropriate? And if you are getting long winded briefs from some in the LHS on Shorthaul is it possible some of them have recently come across from Longhaul and still finessing their new style?
One things for sure, I’m not convinced you can always claim a > 2 min brief is an automatic “fail”.
Yep, but it’s not something that has been permanently built into the “BA way”, it goes in phases and I think ATM we are at “peak brief” ...and don’t forget a “bespoke landing distance calculation”, even into LHR, CAVOK with 10 knots down the strip “because somebody got caught out in Leeds Bradford once....”. I think it’ll change again soon....
And to be fair to BA there are those who still try to give the “Bovingdon , 27L ...” style of brief
into base, OTOH if you are not a regular into some places (which covers a lot of longhaul) is it just possible a snappy LoCo style brief is not appropriate? And if you are getting long winded briefs from some in the LHS on Shorthaul is it possible some of them have recently come across from Longhaul and still finessing their new style? One things for sure, I’m not convinced you can always claim a > 2 min brief is an automatic “fail”.
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I have to say I absolutely do not recognise the BA you are describing. It has many faults of which I am happy to complain about, but the vast majority of SH captains I fly with are just looking for an easy day out. I can’t remember the last time I gave or listened to a LHR brief. Now, I do get tired of talking about life time allowances, Tapered annual allowances or massive tax bills but other than the occasional bit of deluded narcisism the guys are generally great.
As for the discussion about who is better, unless you have a solid job offer from both it’s a redundant argument most people don’t get the choice. All I will say is having worked for 4 bankrupt companies I have never felt more secure in my job and with a family to look after nothing in the world is more valuable than that.
Massive confirmation bias as everything they do agrees with everything they've seen but they don't realise they've never really seen much. 10,000 hours flying the same aircraft for the same operator under the same micromanagement isn't actually "experience" in any meaningful way.
Anyhoo - day to day I don't see the above too much, but then I've got a bit of seniority and fly with more senior, pragmatic guys and many ex BMI skippers. I hesitate to make sweeping generalisations, but maybe the guys seeing the issues here (which ARE very real and do exist) are junior FO's flying with Junior skippers freshly indoctrinated by the training department? who know's why there's such a marked difference of experience.
FWIW my breif into LHR is "what's different about today? what's my fuel bottom line off the hold?". I can't see that anything else is needed - nobody has built any new mountains , nobody has changed euclidean geometry (so the 2500 foot point on a 3 degree ILS is always in the same goddam place!). I've rarely if ever had a skipper quesiton that - but again, maybe my seniority avoids the people who would question it..
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There is no news on the 2019 pay deal and there is unlikely to be any news anytime soon. Negotiations have barely begun (we're only just being asked about our priorities via survey). Historically negotiations run long and it ends up being backdated. So it could easily be February/March or even later before a deal is concluded. That is assuming a deal is even possible without some form of conflict. Expectations are high and management are unlikely to be sympathetic.
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There is no news on the 2019 pay deal and there is unlikely to be any news anytime soon. Negotiations have barely begun (we're only just being asked about our priorities via survey). Historically negotiations run long and it ends up being backdated. So it could easily be February/March or even later before a deal is concluded. That is assuming a deal is even possible without some form of conflict. Expectations are high and management are unlikely to be sympathetic.
I'm aware of the BA being described above - and yes it's driven by a training department largely run by people who have never, ever done anything else - BA cadet, BA TFO, BA TC , BA flight training management.
Massive confirmation bias as everything they do agrees with everything they've seen but they don't realise they've never really seen much. 10,000 hours flying the same aircraft for the same operator under the same micromanagement isn't actually "experience" in any meaningful way..
Massive confirmation bias as everything they do agrees with everything they've seen but they don't realise they've never really seen much. 10,000 hours flying the same aircraft for the same operator under the same micromanagement isn't actually "experience" in any meaningful way..