BA or Virgin? Which is better?

[Cattivo]

Originally Posted by wiggy

It’s early so I’ll be polite: whilst what you say might be literally true amongst the “lot” you know, especially if they are relatively new joiners and have been on Blindlines, (now extinct due to JSS) I’m afraid your statement creates a misleading impression of the overall picture at BA.

Like a few in this place I’m able to look at BA’s 900 hour warning lists which gives those close to a legal limit a heads up. One of these, the December BA 777 P2 900 hours warning list, contains the names of everybody on that status who is close to to, above or well above 750 annual flying hours. It has over 100 individuals on it, and a lot of those P2s are actually well up in the 800’s.

It is also worth noting that as a result of the high hours we routinely have a number of pilots having their bidding limited and/or rosters massaged in order to stay below 900 per annum/100 in 28 days.

That state of affairs is fairly standard these days month in, month out, across all the longhaul seats and fleets apart from possibly temporarily the 787. It is not a low hours airline.

It is unlikely the new rostering system at BA will bring hours down by any significant amount.so the facts are don’t for one minute think BA long haul full time is a 750 hour per annum operation.

Wiggy, if you’re laying out these facts to argue how busy we all are you need to also state that a LOT of these individuals will be flying that level of hours by CHOICE. Many individuals chase down the 900 limit to drop trips in December, many pick up overtime to pay for new toys and many will bid way over CAP for whatever reason. I agree it’s not a low hour airline and I may be wrong but I think for the majority, if you don’t want to work that hard, you don’t have to.

[DuctOvht]

I know a lot of people at BA on all LH fleets and know nobody that has done more than 750 hours full time.

Utter nonsense.

I can assure you, from personal experience, that this is very much NOT the case. Many long haul pilots in BA are right up on the limits, constantly.

Don’t be fooled that this is somehow through personal choice either. If you’re senior enough to get triplines inevitably you’re working at or over CAP (to try and avoid Force Assign - where BA can plant a trip across that special event that you’d carefully bid to be off for) then you’ll be damn close to 900hrs. It’s utterly inconceivable that JSS is going to lighten the workload (although FA will be a thing of the past, in theory. In practice these trips will be ‘optimised’ onto rosters, no longer attracting the extra money they currently do). Frankly, the only thing that will improve our lot is more pilots and they cost money, so we will never have enough.

So, to sum up, either they’re lying or you are.

[GS-Alpha]

I have just had a quick skim of the P2 747 high hours list, which means you are in danger of coming up against the annual legal limit. More than one third of the fleet are on it. I find myself on the list, having spent my entire year doing my level best to work as little as possible, and I have the advantage of nearly two decades of seniority on my side. These are facts, not conjecture, or asking ‘a lot’ of my mates.

[wiggy]

Originally Posted by Cattivo

Wiggy, if you’re laying out these facts to argue how busy we all are you need to also state that a LOT of these individuals will be flying that level of hours by CHOICE.

Well after about three decades in various positions on senority lists I’d humbly suggest that a lot of the time being above the magic 750 hours is not done by choice, though I’d accept it is more of a factor in the very very high hour cases.

I refer you to the likes of the previous posters, such as Tay Cough, Duct and GS - a lot of full timers at BA are working >750 simply because of it’s the BA way, it is not down to December, Christmas or new toys.

[Captain Spam Can]

It’s good to see some people being honest with the OP. I find that in this industry certain people will only tell you how great something is when nothing is perfect and more often than not the person asking needs the honest answer as the decision will affect his/her family life, financial circumstances etc. I would recommend asking a mature person with a happy family life outside of work and other interests and nothing to gain, an uncompetitive nature and humble. There you will find a balanced opinion which will probably make your nice predicament much tougher.......the grass is always a different shade and the circus is always the same except for the monekys.

[flightpattern]

Thanks all - you make some salient points. Getting an unbiased opinion is difficult - no one wants to talk down on what they’ve worked damn hard to get. Even though this forum tends to go off on tangents, for the most part it’s pilots generously putting their time into helping people like me on deciding their futures, so thanks a million for your contributions & honesty!

FYI I’m already 787 LH, so I am familiar with the lifestyle but if I was to pick based on what I’ve read, it has to be Virgin.. I do like the idea of having SH in the back pocket for the future, and will be hard to turn down the variety of BA so it is a big trade off..

The one bug bear for me is the unknown future of the company. Whilst I appreciate no one has a crystal ball, where do people in virgin see the company going with the new acquisitions and Branson pretty much out the picture?

Optimistically, I think it could have a hugely exciting future. There’s just a small part of me that threats about the long term game plan of Delta & AF KLM, and what their plans are for an iconic but loss making brand.. (I’ve got over 30 years to go (eek))

[macdo]

From what its worth IMHO, having seen a fair few BA and VS rosters, and known people who do both jobs, and you already know what LH is like and you would have zero seniority starting with BA which will only slowly become less onerous, VS is the correct answer. If your lifestyle changes in the future and you want stable SH, move to Easyjet :-)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

What a great position - kudos to you for having the 2 offers on the table..

From my viewpoint the big plus for BA is job security, though bear in mind Virgin have a significant presence at LHR. Their slot pairings are worth millions. In the (very) unlikely event they went to the wall, those slots would be fought over by several large airlines, and the aircraft and crews would I imagine end up flying for the winner of the slot war. So IMHO a job at VA is pretty darn safe, just the future of the brand is in question, more so than at BA anyway. Maybe job certainty, as in who you are working for, is a better way to put it.

The biggest plus for Virgin I can see is the 750hrs and rotating seniority. That’s a fantastic draw. We have had guys leave BA LH for VA. Don’t think we get many going the other way? The VA guys I’ve met down route seem very happy with their lot. For the record I’m BA LH p2 and it’s hard work and noticeably so the last year or so. The new rostering system has really thrown up a big question mark over the future and the potential lifestyle we can all expect, especially for the junior. It’s BA’s brexit basically. No one really knows.

Anyway, tough call but a nice problem to have - good luck and enjoy either way!

[Jumbo2]

Since it got mentioned earlier on every time I taxi past Terminal 3 I notice more and more Delta aircraft at the gates and less Virgin Aircraft. I get the feeling Virgin is expending at places like Manchester and Gatwick but shrinking at Heathrow. Since I don't work for Virgin this is just an observation. Is it a correct observation that Delta has taken over quite a few of the Virgin slots at Heathrow or are they just covering the slots because of the ongoing 787 engine problems?

[sudden twang]

There are subtle things to consider also:
How many positioning sectors do you do/ year? Are they counted in the 900/750? In what cabin?
many transits by road?
pension contributions?
LOL?
Private health?
Training vacancies ( if that’s your bag)
Staff travel VS much better
Ease of commute ( I’d much rather be BA if living ion mainland Europe)
I could go on it’s not easy best of luck.

[wiggy]

Clamchowder:

Not having access to your system I can't do anything but judge on what I hear. It is a FACT that 100% of my ex-colleagues and friends at BA are sat under 750, one laughing about the quiet year on 650.

To which I would ask:

1. What Fleet(s) are they on, and
2. Are they on Blindlines
3. Are they doing a lot of reserve?

Under the BA system it is hard to keep the flying hours down to 750 when the credited hours target set by the company ( which is very roughly speaking sum of flying plus all other duties, with some factoring to cater for long slips,ground duties etc) is 1051 (Long haul), unless you fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. You are on a fleet that is suffering a lot of downtime,

2. On a fleet that has a high percentage of “long” slips (i.e. 48 hours or more, so your credit earned might be based on factored time away from base rather than flight time )

3. On Blindlines (where some credit earned is by virtue of being available to the company for work but possibly not actually flying)

4. Or are doing a lot of unused reserve (ditto).

Some or a combination of those will produce lowish flying hours outliers...Whatever the reason for your contacts lack of flying they should enjoy it whilst they can.....(especially the Blindline holders with the advent of JSS).

OTOH the average full time line pilot exposed to triplines on longhaul fleets with a high percentage of nightstops such as the 777 and most especially now the 747 will struggle to keep the flying hours below 750.

By way of example I went part time years ago (there’s a message in itself), I do triplines, I never pick up extra work and fortunately I'm senior enough to pick up the occasional relatively high credit but relatively low flying hours trip. If I pro-rata my annual flying hours up to a full time equivalent I’m always above 750, usually up around 780 -820...Given I've been using the system for more than a handful of years I'd suggest that is not chance or carelessness, that's just the way it works for a lot of pilots at BA..

Sorry this has turned into a long post but fundamentally IMVHO you cannot look at BA rostering, as actually worked by a significant number of the BA pilot workforce, and put it on a par with the Virgin 750 hour agreement, which is what it appears you are trying to do.

[Mylius]

Forget about hours for a second, has anyone thought about the dynamics of the seniority list which you might be about to join? BA has recruited around 1500 pilots in the last decade or so which accounts for a third of the pilot workforce. It’s a big bubble which puts new joiners at the back of quite a long queue for everything (especially LH commands). Virgin’s expansion is possibly yet to come.

Combined with 34 pay points now you really have to invest a great deal of time in BA to reap the rewards of seniority (which will no doubt be diluted by JSS but that’s another thing...)

Sure, you get to travel in First class at BA, you get credit for positioning sectors, the top scale Capt salary is more, the variety of destinations is incredible, but if you are looking for a career move in your 30s then Virgin would probably be the place to go now just for speed of progression. If you’re in your early 20s then BA can offer you a very good career.

Any airline that wants to make money won’t have its pilots sitting around at home all day. 750 hours is a very good headline but if you factor in positioning sectors, time spent on a coach back from Glasgow, I wonder whether that changes the picture at all?

As for job security....let’s face it neither airline is going anywhere is it?

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

[Riskybis]

Originally Posted by Mylius

Forget about hours for a second, has anyone thought about the dynamics of the seniority list which you might be about to join? BA has recruited around 1500 pilots in the last decade or so which accounts for a third of the pilot workforce. It’s a big bubble which puts new joiners at the back of quite a long queue for everything (especially LH commands). Virgin’s expansion is possibly yet to come.

Combined with 34 pay points now you really have to invest a great deal of time in BA to reap the rewards of seniority (which will no doubt be diluted by JSS but that’s another thing...)

Sure, you get to travel in First class at BA, you get credit for positioning sectors, the top scale Capt salary is more, the variety of destinations is incredible, but if you are looking for a career move in your 30s then Virgin would probably be the place to go now just for speed of progression. If you’re in your early 20s then BA can offer you a very good career.

Any airline that wants to make money won’t have its pilots sitting around at home all day. 750 hours is a very good headline but if you factor in positioning sectors, time spent on a coach back from Glasgow, I wonder whether that changes the picture at all?

As for job security....let’s face it neither airline is going anywhere is it?

Just my thoughts. Flame away.

the only guys that would be on a coach back from Glasgow would be the 747 guys and girls as I believe they do a Glasgow - Orlando ?

[Tricia Takanawa]

Anything over 30 I would head to VS personally for the reasons quoted above, unless you really want short haul. In that case, head to easyJet.

BA only really has 2 pros:
1. Job security. They're making cash hand over fist. (Ask yourself how... LHR slots (What happens if the 3rd RWY is approved). Old aeroplanes that are owned, but will cripple the airline if the oil price rockets as they'll suddenly need to invest in new airframes, but the production waitlist for 350/787 etc is long. And above all COST CUTTING.)
2. Variety if you want to try different places/fleets etc. (Already being long haul, Im sure you've realised that after around 4 years the excitement of visiting places for 24/48 hours soon wears thin)

VS pros.
Retirement bulge coming = Fast cmd, and increased seniority.
Better pay initially inc pension on flight pay.
Being at the bottom of a BA seniority list, looking at JSS coming in, ROTATING SENIORITY is a huge plus. This means at least every 3 months you'll be bidding at 33% down the list, getting some important days off. OK 1 in 3 months will be , but in BA that will be 12 in 12 months. When you do get some seniority, it is still rewarded as your worst month will now be 88% and best 22%, BA every month will be 66%, just about starting to get some weekends etc.
750 Hours PA! Granted sims etc don't count, but as Wiggy mentioned, they don't really in BA either as we work to 1051 credit hours. For info, leave is only credited around 2:51 per day. So 14 days leave in a month leaves circa 48 hours left to work in 2 weeks, ignoring wrap days.

Ignoring all of the above, they both seem to have very different cultures. At the end of the day, you need to fit in. Are you Red or Blue?

[stiflersmom]

First off, congrats flightpattern, you're in a great position.

I'm BA P2 LH and reasonably senior. I agree with your pro's and con's although I'd also highlight that the time to command in Virgin is likely to be very much shorter than in BA. The current time to command for LH in BA is around 18+ years, whereas my mates in Virgin seem to be coming up for command after about 12 years at the moment. From what they tell me that time to command is likely to reduce further due to the upcoming retirement bulge in Virgin. While BA recruitment is racing ahead we still have a lot of relatively young LH Captains as a product of the cadet scheme back in the 90's who understandably wont be going anywhere for a while yet. BA short haul commands are currently coming up after as little as 2 or 3 years although there's a reason for this! I think you'd struggle to find many pilots in BA who would say that full time BA SH is a sustainable career choice so I'd weigh that against the pro of being able to switch between LH and SH.

My own experience is that most BA LH pilots will be doing something north of 800 hours before overtime. As stated above blindlines, reserve and or broken aircraft ala 787, will keep your hours lower than average although pilot shortages on certain fleets and triplines will keep your hours high.

The rotating seniority at Virgin is a massive plus to my mind. I did nearly 10 years of blind lines albeit with hindsight I could and should have bid off my fleet sooner to get more control. My situation was unusual as a result of the retirement age being extended and being on a very senior fleet but my point is that if there is unforeseen stagnation for any reason you could find yourself stuck at the bottom for a long time whereas at Virgin at least you'd still have the opportunity to have some control over your working life. Just note that on achieving a new command at BA, you'll be back to the bottom of your seniority list and have to work your way up all over again, although you would go across to the P1 pay scales at your current pay point whereas in Virgin you'd go back to P1 pp1.

The pensions at both airlines are similar now but bear in mind you'd be joining BA onto 34 paypoints (changed from 24 a few years ago) also that Virgin has a higher starting salary and the potential for a much quicker command at Virgin while working approx 10% fewer hours than at BA and I could certainly see a strong case for going to Virgin over BA. I have a mate who joined BA in 2004 and shortly thereafter resigned to go to Virgin. When he resigned the BA manager was aghast as to why he would leave BA to join a lesser airline! He's now a Captain, quite happy as far as I can tell and steadily moving up the seniority list whereas in BA he'd be a relatively senior FO on any LH fleet, with about 4-5 years to go to command, earning a lot less than he currently does and working 10% harder for it!

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[macdo]

Someone up above commented 'are you red or blue?'. That's a very important factor to consider as the two airlines are very different habitats. Over the long term this could be a deal killer if you select the wrong one for your personality.

[Ennie]

So.... 14 years on, where did you go?

[Pickled]

In BA senior LH pilots normally fly the longer flights, the junior pilots tend to do the East Coast, Central Africa and Middle East. The junior pilots work harder, have more fatigue, but may not do as many flying hours per year.

Comparing flying hours is not everything, but junior BA pilots will normally work considerably harder than Virgin pilots. You will normally be junior at least twice, on joining and when first getting a LH command (more than 2 times if you go DEP, SH command, LH command).

20+ years ago a friend and I left our previous airline at the same time, he chose Virgin and I chose BA. He has earned far more money than me (LH command 13 years earlier), worked less and had far more fun. I chose BA at the time because it seemed more secure. BA outsources every job that they practically can, but that is most unlikely to apply to line pilots (training is another matter). I still think that BA offers greater security but wish that I had joined Virgin all those years ago.

[RexBanner]

Originally Posted by Pickled

BA outsources every job that they practically can, but that is most unlikely to apply to line pilots (training is another matter)

Just goes to show the power of the rumour mill. The possible outsourcing of training was a Chinese whisper that apparently rose and grew out of all proportion out of nothing more sinister than the maintanence of the TBA/TBC buildings being under consideration for outsourcing. BA have already investigated outsourcing training a couple of years back but decided it was cheaper to keep it in house, amongst other reasons.

[Tay Cough]

Some SH training has been outsourced to L3 for capacity reasons, I believe. Although that has caused some issues of it’s own apparently.