Emirates or Cathay?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CX or EK
John,
As a relatively new guy to EK I can only give you my first impressions. I managed to get my children into an excellent English school just 5 minutes down the road. Lack of hobbies will certainly not be a factor as there's plenty to do including horseback riding.
Currently there is no airline expanding as rapidly as EK and as you probably already know, it's one of the most profitable. The training is excellent and the pilots come across as a very civilized bunch. Considering the roads previously travelled, there is no place else professionaly that I would rather be right now. Besides there's no SARS or other strange diseases to worry about that seem to crop up from time to time in HK.
Good luck with your choices, but like others who have spoken, I would advise you to apply to both airlines so you can at least keep your options open.
Best regards,
Yardman
As a relatively new guy to EK I can only give you my first impressions. I managed to get my children into an excellent English school just 5 minutes down the road. Lack of hobbies will certainly not be a factor as there's plenty to do including horseback riding.
Currently there is no airline expanding as rapidly as EK and as you probably already know, it's one of the most profitable. The training is excellent and the pilots come across as a very civilized bunch. Considering the roads previously travelled, there is no place else professionaly that I would rather be right now. Besides there's no SARS or other strange diseases to worry about that seem to crop up from time to time in HK.
Good luck with your choices, but like others who have spoken, I would advise you to apply to both airlines so you can at least keep your options open.
Best regards,
Yardman
JM.
In Dubai, sailing: 2 good clubs, good conditions, year round sailing with no wet/drysuits.
Golf: Lovely courses but a bit pricey.
Horse riding: Don't know, suspect there's some. I spent a lot of time in Bahrain and you can ride horses there.
And as for Hong Kong. People spitting on you in the streets? The chinese used to spit everywhere, not at white people specificly. But since SARS, spitting in the street is illegal and carries heavy fines. And as the chinese are generally pretty law abiding, there's no spitting now. Personally, I find the HK Chinese fairly friendly to 'gweilos'.
Dirty, smelly? It's not that clean but not necessarily worse than London these days. The smells are all part of the Hong Kong experience. It's also crowded, noisy, busy, and things happen at a fast pace. As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most exciting places in the world. It can be expensive, but housing has gone down in price (some property values have dropped 70% since the handover) and shop prices don't differ much from those in Europe these days.
One things for sure. The Asian aviation market in Asia is the one that's really going to grow. Whether you are a part of it in China or at the 'crossroads of the new world economy' as Dubai bills itself, jump in!
In Dubai, sailing: 2 good clubs, good conditions, year round sailing with no wet/drysuits.
Golf: Lovely courses but a bit pricey.
Horse riding: Don't know, suspect there's some. I spent a lot of time in Bahrain and you can ride horses there.
And as for Hong Kong. People spitting on you in the streets? The chinese used to spit everywhere, not at white people specificly. But since SARS, spitting in the street is illegal and carries heavy fines. And as the chinese are generally pretty law abiding, there's no spitting now. Personally, I find the HK Chinese fairly friendly to 'gweilos'.
Dirty, smelly? It's not that clean but not necessarily worse than London these days. The smells are all part of the Hong Kong experience. It's also crowded, noisy, busy, and things happen at a fast pace. As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most exciting places in the world. It can be expensive, but housing has gone down in price (some property values have dropped 70% since the handover) and shop prices don't differ much from those in Europe these days.
One things for sure. The Asian aviation market in Asia is the one that's really going to grow. Whether you are a part of it in China or at the 'crossroads of the new world economy' as Dubai bills itself, jump in!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John,
Lot's of horseback riding in Dubai. My buddy has his daughter enrolled in lessons. (You can ride camels too, if so inclined!)
For sure you take a risk moving to a non-democratic country, but keep in mind, HK is also ultimately controlled by a totalitarian state.
HK is very densely populated and therefore suffers from air and noise pollution. Perhaps that's why you were given the impression that it was 'dirty'. Personally, I love the major Asian cities. If fact, I love Bangkok even though that's a truly dirty city!
Getting back to your hobbies, because of the population, I'd think it'd be more difficult to get to ranches and such in HK. Size-wise and lay-out wise, perhaps New-York vs. Las Vegas would be a fair parallel?
Cheers
Lot's of horseback riding in Dubai. My buddy has his daughter enrolled in lessons. (You can ride camels too, if so inclined!)
For sure you take a risk moving to a non-democratic country, but keep in mind, HK is also ultimately controlled by a totalitarian state.
HK is very densely populated and therefore suffers from air and noise pollution. Perhaps that's why you were given the impression that it was 'dirty'. Personally, I love the major Asian cities. If fact, I love Bangkok even though that's a truly dirty city!
Getting back to your hobbies, because of the population, I'd think it'd be more difficult to get to ranches and such in HK. Size-wise and lay-out wise, perhaps New-York vs. Las Vegas would be a fair parallel?
Cheers
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys,
I guess I should have called this topic "Dubai vs Hong Kong" rather than "Emirates vs Cathay".
I heard recently that Cathay has a large union culture whereas Emirates does not. In the States, unions are a big deal. I have watched them do good and bad things for airlines but generally I would prefer a union or at least a well represented pilot body. Not getting off topic, I'm just trying to find a reason for one or the other companys.
Although, it sounds like Emirates haven't suffered without a union, they really have a great package.
Bus Canuck, loved the NY to LV comparison- It really got me thinking. I have also been to Bangkok and really loved it! I found it vibrant and exciting, but the option to chill on fantastic Thai beaches all year round gave it the edge over New York. Las Vegas is great for a vacation but long term, there isn't really much more to it than the strip.
Hmmm, certainly a tough call choosing one over the other, but a problem I wouldn't mind having!
Thanks all,
John Milton
I guess I should have called this topic "Dubai vs Hong Kong" rather than "Emirates vs Cathay".
I heard recently that Cathay has a large union culture whereas Emirates does not. In the States, unions are a big deal. I have watched them do good and bad things for airlines but generally I would prefer a union or at least a well represented pilot body. Not getting off topic, I'm just trying to find a reason for one or the other companys.
Although, it sounds like Emirates haven't suffered without a union, they really have a great package.
Bus Canuck, loved the NY to LV comparison- It really got me thinking. I have also been to Bangkok and really loved it! I found it vibrant and exciting, but the option to chill on fantastic Thai beaches all year round gave it the edge over New York. Las Vegas is great for a vacation but long term, there isn't really much more to it than the strip.
Hmmm, certainly a tough call choosing one over the other, but a problem I wouldn't mind having!
Thanks all,
John Milton
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: HON121š/14 NM
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JM.
You might have thought of this, and I apologise if you have, but might it be worth your while taking a holiday in each place with Mrs JM. Arrange to meet a few prooners for a beerio or two, and a guided tour of the cities etc.
Having visited Dubai myself on a couple of occasions I feel that I could live there as much as I could live anywhere. It wouldn't be home as such, but would be a great place to have a life. All the recognisable features are there, plus plenty that make Dubai a uniquely part of the Middle East. There are all the usual amenities of clubs, bars, social clubs, sports clubs, fishing clubs, riding clubs: just pick up a copy of Time Out when you arrive to get the low-down. It seems a pretty good place for children to grow up as well: there are European and American schools and a university if you want them to stay close to hand.
Don't take our word for it: try it for yourself, even if it's only for a week! Good luck whatever you decide.
You might have thought of this, and I apologise if you have, but might it be worth your while taking a holiday in each place with Mrs JM. Arrange to meet a few prooners for a beerio or two, and a guided tour of the cities etc.
Having visited Dubai myself on a couple of occasions I feel that I could live there as much as I could live anywhere. It wouldn't be home as such, but would be a great place to have a life. All the recognisable features are there, plus plenty that make Dubai a uniquely part of the Middle East. There are all the usual amenities of clubs, bars, social clubs, sports clubs, fishing clubs, riding clubs: just pick up a copy of Time Out when you arrive to get the low-down. It seems a pretty good place for children to grow up as well: there are European and American schools and a university if you want them to stay close to hand.
Don't take our word for it: try it for yourself, even if it's only for a week! Good luck whatever you decide.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dubai
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JM,
Nice that you are concerned so much about your wife but you are a very large part of the equation and Dubai/EK can be a very frustrating place to be and company to work for.
'havn't suffered much from not having a union', (paraphrased), don't believe it. Qualification for command, accom, pay/allowances are not dicussed but imposed. Still, better than BALPA.
If I knew a few years ago what I know now, I wouldn't have come to EK, though there are others who are happy enough, good luck.
Nice that you are concerned so much about your wife but you are a very large part of the equation and Dubai/EK can be a very frustrating place to be and company to work for.
'havn't suffered much from not having a union', (paraphrased), don't believe it. Qualification for command, accom, pay/allowances are not dicussed but imposed. Still, better than BALPA.
If I knew a few years ago what I know now, I wouldn't have come to EK, though there are others who are happy enough, good luck.
Guest
Posts: n/a
My two cents
I would say Cathay is a better choice. Why, well, Dubai is EK's only base. Cathay has many in the US, Europe, and Aust as well as Hong Kong. Cathay and the Asia market will grow as well particularly mainland China as is evidenced in the recent Travel and Leisure magazine.
Cathay just won approval for three mainland China cities as well as the coveted New York-London market which will make it a round the world airline. I don't think anyone else does this anymore?
SARS was/is a bad thing and hopefully won't appear again however, as an American the Middle East is just not realistic for me. I am single, no kids, never even married and I would not go to the ME. I spent time in that part of the world before doing Hadj and Saudi wet lease and frankly don't want to go back. EK flies to a lot of Middle Eastern places, CX does too, but not as many "Hot Spots" as I would call them. I believe the quality of life in the ME would never be as good as HK or Aust or Europe. The ME is and always will be volatile especially for westerners.
As far as pay and "conditions of service" CX hands down. I was stunned when I read the COS. I will probably get blasted for that but it is far better than any, and I mean ANY US carrier and a lot of others as well. Ask yourself what you want to have when it is time to retire. Having a command is great but I think the bigger picture is retirement.
Rapid expansion may not be a good thing, ordering brand spanking new aircraft may not be either. CX is being VERY conservative as is evidenced with the used B747-400's. I think that is smart as the entire world airline industry is on the brink right now. All it will take is a major missle or bombing and game over. The DHL thing got blown by cause it was a freighter, frankly that is scary. If that happens, where would you rather be? In the ME or somewhere else?
Good luck to you.
Cathay just won approval for three mainland China cities as well as the coveted New York-London market which will make it a round the world airline. I don't think anyone else does this anymore?
SARS was/is a bad thing and hopefully won't appear again however, as an American the Middle East is just not realistic for me. I am single, no kids, never even married and I would not go to the ME. I spent time in that part of the world before doing Hadj and Saudi wet lease and frankly don't want to go back. EK flies to a lot of Middle Eastern places, CX does too, but not as many "Hot Spots" as I would call them. I believe the quality of life in the ME would never be as good as HK or Aust or Europe. The ME is and always will be volatile especially for westerners.
As far as pay and "conditions of service" CX hands down. I was stunned when I read the COS. I will probably get blasted for that but it is far better than any, and I mean ANY US carrier and a lot of others as well. Ask yourself what you want to have when it is time to retire. Having a command is great but I think the bigger picture is retirement.
Rapid expansion may not be a good thing, ordering brand spanking new aircraft may not be either. CX is being VERY conservative as is evidenced with the used B747-400's. I think that is smart as the entire world airline industry is on the brink right now. All it will take is a major missle or bombing and game over. The DHL thing got blown by cause it was a freighter, frankly that is scary. If that happens, where would you rather be? In the ME or somewhere else?
Good luck to you.
Tajfa
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say Hong Kong (I am in Cathay). Has great nightlife, good social networks and it is NOT all people and neon signs. Most of HK is parks and mountains and if you live on South Lantau for example its beautiful and quiet!
If you join CX mainline you will not be an FO, have you considered that? You would have to join as an SO and wait for the upgrade (2 - 3 years) and you would not get an upgrade on the 744 either. it would be Airbus or 777.
Money is great (CX FO earns a lot more than an EK Skipper), rosters on the ultra long haul fleets are great (4 day pattern followed by 5 days off quite often 6 or 7), Cathay has massive expansion plans and the Union/Management are back in talks - Things look good for CX now but that as you know can change overnight!
Best of luck!
If you join CX mainline you will not be an FO, have you considered that? You would have to join as an SO and wait for the upgrade (2 - 3 years) and you would not get an upgrade on the 744 either. it would be Airbus or 777.
Money is great (CX FO earns a lot more than an EK Skipper), rosters on the ultra long haul fleets are great (4 day pattern followed by 5 days off quite often 6 or 7), Cathay has massive expansion plans and the Union/Management are back in talks - Things look good for CX now but that as you know can change overnight!
Best of luck!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say Dubai ( I am in Emirates). Has great nightlife, good social networks and it is NOT all people and neon signs. Most of Dubai is deserts and mountains and beaches- most of it beautiful and quiet.
If you join EK (only line) you will be at least FO - no SO's. And 330/340 or 777.
Money will get better I'm sure - maybe not as much monetarily as CX but HK living costs I believe very much higher than Dubai....CX FO may earn more than EK skipper - for now - but I imagine EK skipper puts far more away for those rare rainy days!!! EK has the BIGGEST expansion plans- puts CX to shame..
Touche Shamen - good luck to you
If you join EK (only line) you will be at least FO - no SO's. And 330/340 or 777.
Money will get better I'm sure - maybe not as much monetarily as CX but HK living costs I believe very much higher than Dubai....CX FO may earn more than EK skipper - for now - but I imagine EK skipper puts far more away for those rare rainy days!!! EK has the BIGGEST expansion plans- puts CX to shame..
Touche Shamen - good luck to you
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UAE
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having a pretty good knowledge of both options... one would say:
Second officer wages in Cathay are not far off a skippers wage in EK. A skippers wage in Cathay is nearer three times that of a skipper in EK....
The provident fund in Cathay is much better too... in EK 10 years of service will have only accumulated US$90K... actually less that you have contributed...
Cathay have bases.... Dubai is for life..
Cathay have a union, it might not get its own way all of the time but at least its there, EK change the terms of your contract on a regular basis, and you can do NOTHING about it...
Cathay have a seniority system, EK are employing direct entry Captains on a higher scale than existing captains, and will continue to do so....
short term go EK and get a decent rating they are desperate for drivers at the mo.... that rating may be mighty useful in a couple of years... Medium or long term choice has to be CX...
Second officer wages in Cathay are not far off a skippers wage in EK. A skippers wage in Cathay is nearer three times that of a skipper in EK....
The provident fund in Cathay is much better too... in EK 10 years of service will have only accumulated US$90K... actually less that you have contributed...
Cathay have bases.... Dubai is for life..
Cathay have a union, it might not get its own way all of the time but at least its there, EK change the terms of your contract on a regular basis, and you can do NOTHING about it...
Cathay have a seniority system, EK are employing direct entry Captains on a higher scale than existing captains, and will continue to do so....
short term go EK and get a decent rating they are desperate for drivers at the mo.... that rating may be mighty useful in a couple of years... Medium or long term choice has to be CX...
Last edited by deserted; 6th Dec 2003 at 20:16.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charlie Hunter I would stay " Up North" if I were you.
White Knight Why would you imagine an EK Captain earning less than a Cathay F/O puts away more for a rainy day then the Cathay F/O??
Perhaps for the same reason you imagine that "the money in EK will get better I am sure??" You do a lot of imagining don't you ??
There is no evidence that EK have any intention of upping the payscales as you "imagine" and so long as people like you turn up in droves then there is no reason to do so.
Yes EK are expanding rapidly so for a short time Upgrades will be there but as EK goes real Long Haul and the ratio of F/O's to Captains increases, then soon, if it has not happened already then there are going to be some very long serving F/O's in EK in the years to come.
White Knight Why would you imagine an EK Captain earning less than a Cathay F/O puts away more for a rainy day then the Cathay F/O??
Perhaps for the same reason you imagine that "the money in EK will get better I am sure??" You do a lot of imagining don't you ??
There is no evidence that EK have any intention of upping the payscales as you "imagine" and so long as people like you turn up in droves then there is no reason to do so.
Yes EK are expanding rapidly so for a short time Upgrades will be there but as EK goes real Long Haul and the ratio of F/O's to Captains increases, then soon, if it has not happened already then there are going to be some very long serving F/O's in EK in the years to come.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing which does indeed have to be said - Dubai's beaches are indeed amazing compared to those in HK 
and the water is beautifully warm!
However I would require more from Emirates and Dubai to make me want to spend the rest of my working life there!
and the water is beautifully warm!However I would require more from Emirates and Dubai to make me want to spend the rest of my working life there!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Millerscourt - nearly all of your postings revolve around MONEY, yes I agree money is important to a good life but it is NOT everything.
For me it's all about LIFESTYLE, both for me and my family. Maybe you should try it sometime, or is it maybe that YOUR imagination is a little lacking ?
For me it's all about LIFESTYLE, both for me and my family. Maybe you should try it sometime, or is it maybe that YOUR imagination is a little lacking ?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
White Knight You cannot have LIFESTYLE without MONEY!
Of course MONEY is the main consideration for those considering joining EK as DEC or even as F/O's
Experienced A340 Captains are not going to join EK in large numbers unless the money is improved.
EK have now improved the MONEY to Dhs29435 per month for experienced A340 Captains. This may well bring a few more applications but it certainly won't bring mine as the inconvenience and hassle of moving to DXB is not being rewarded sufficiently.
I think EK should offer say 2-3 year contract jobs at say $12000 per month and then they will get the Pilots they want and you within EK know these DEC's are only here for a short time to give EK a chance to get their act together to promote from within in an orderly fashion.
Of course MONEY is the main consideration for those considering joining EK as DEC or even as F/O's
Experienced A340 Captains are not going to join EK in large numbers unless the money is improved.
EK have now improved the MONEY to Dhs29435 per month for experienced A340 Captains. This may well bring a few more applications but it certainly won't bring mine as the inconvenience and hassle of moving to DXB is not being rewarded sufficiently.
I think EK should offer say 2-3 year contract jobs at say $12000 per month and then they will get the Pilots they want and you within EK know these DEC's are only here for a short time to give EK a chance to get their act together to promote from within in an orderly fashion.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: ADN345/17dme,ish
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Millerscourt, would $12000 on a 2-3 yr contract be enough to drag you from Virgin etc. I think not. People join EK for security, career progression, variation in flying, certainly not for money. Money/lifestyle argument, well in some cases they are related but heading to the beach every day whilst at home cost's nothing. Getting the pilot's will not be the biggest headache faced by the management, cabin crew will be. Rgds.