Emirates Direct Entry Commands (merged)
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Well this...
We would have hoped that there would have been at least some consultation we the pilots before the decision on DECs were made...there was not. There is also no body which represents the pilots to the management on any issue...too close to a union for comfort.
The fact remains that with better planning the training system would have been in a much healthier state to cope with the known expansion. Instead it has been depleated to the extent that we are now faced with the more expensive and damaging option of DECs... and it still needs to gear up even now.
I believe that there is still time to invoke the right of 'parle' to try and offer a more constructive way forward that would be in all our interests. However there is no such 'right' and the opportunities to talk are few and far between. There is however a pilots meeting on the 29th where I really hope that the anger and frustration felt by many of us will be tempered with rational and constructive ideas on how best to proceed for all of us, pilots and company alike. There is still time to lessen the effects on our careers by DECs and prevent the necessity of revisiting the spectre in the future.
It is in all our interests that EK continues with its expansion. We now have an opportunity to base this growth on a firmer base of trust and cooperation than the sands of distrust and confrontation.
The fat lady hasn't sung yet, but she's on the stage...
We would have hoped that there would have been at least some consultation we the pilots before the decision on DECs were made...there was not. There is also no body which represents the pilots to the management on any issue...too close to a union for comfort.
The fact remains that with better planning the training system would have been in a much healthier state to cope with the known expansion. Instead it has been depleated to the extent that we are now faced with the more expensive and damaging option of DECs... and it still needs to gear up even now.
I believe that there is still time to invoke the right of 'parle' to try and offer a more constructive way forward that would be in all our interests. However there is no such 'right' and the opportunities to talk are few and far between. There is however a pilots meeting on the 29th where I really hope that the anger and frustration felt by many of us will be tempered with rational and constructive ideas on how best to proceed for all of us, pilots and company alike. There is still time to lessen the effects on our careers by DECs and prevent the necessity of revisiting the spectre in the future.
It is in all our interests that EK continues with its expansion. We now have an opportunity to base this growth on a firmer base of trust and cooperation than the sands of distrust and confrontation.
The fat lady hasn't sung yet, but she's on the stage...
Last edited by mozzie; 22nd Sep 2003 at 16:41.
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Well it is official now, Emirates is looking for Captains A330 A340, but also from other wide body aircraft as it says in its advert in Flight. You can find it on the web www.flightinternationaljobs.com
JP
JP
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Never Mind the Bollocks
Anyone able to post what the DECs will be paid?
I give all due sympathy to the egregiously disadavantaged First Officers, but the captain's salary issue has far more incendiary potential.
I give all due sympathy to the egregiously disadavantaged First Officers, but the captain's salary issue has far more incendiary potential.
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I have one word for you.... expatriates.
That is what your managers are
(manager=generic term for entrenched expat senior old boy at ek)
This is what their priorities are.
The club , the image , the kids education , and keeping the beatch in dinner parties.
He doesnt give a toss about you or your command, end of story.
Man in shamag says ***t: he says andrex or charmin sir?one sheet or two?
Those of you that didnt know the expat rules of engagement before leaving for the gulf are now getting a lesson in the nick leeson school of "lesson one on maintaining expat job for managers." (at all costs)
been there done that ate the rabbit. Thank **** for night heraklions
hic hic
jack
ps if the dfo reads this we both know i'm right , eh mate.
That is what your managers are
(manager=generic term for entrenched expat senior old boy at ek)
This is what their priorities are.
The club , the image , the kids education , and keeping the beatch in dinner parties.
He doesnt give a toss about you or your command, end of story.
Man in shamag says ***t: he says andrex or charmin sir?one sheet or two?
Those of you that didnt know the expat rules of engagement before leaving for the gulf are now getting a lesson in the nick leeson school of "lesson one on maintaining expat job for managers." (at all costs)
been there done that ate the rabbit. Thank **** for night heraklions
hic hic
jack
ps if the dfo reads this we both know i'm right , eh mate.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 23rd Sep 2003 at 23:38.
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Millerscourt
"This DEC business" as you call it isn't getting to me half as much as your pontifications and Sh1t stirrings are. As for the "chip on shoulder" remark, well I have a fairly balanced outlook on life with a big chip on each shoulder,thanks. I am SO relieved that I won't be flying with you. No offence intended.
"This DEC business" as you call it isn't getting to me half as much as your pontifications and Sh1t stirrings are. As for the "chip on shoulder" remark, well I have a fairly balanced outlook on life with a big chip on each shoulder,thanks. I am SO relieved that I won't be flying with you. No offence intended.
I believe, they will have a very hard time finding "suitable" candidates for those DEC positions - unless they offer much more than the entry level CP package.
Chill out you effo´s in EK.
Seems like the above mentioned "expats" will have quite a bit of explaining to do.
Please don´t let those who have messed up, provoke you into doing stupid things or voicing uncalled for opinions. It would only serve as a smokescreen for those who do not seem to be able to handle the rapid expansion of the company.
Some things actually do need their time...
Chill out you effo´s in EK.
Seems like the above mentioned "expats" will have quite a bit of explaining to do.
Please don´t let those who have messed up, provoke you into doing stupid things or voicing uncalled for opinions. It would only serve as a smokescreen for those who do not seem to be able to handle the rapid expansion of the company.
Some things actually do need their time...
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wonderbus
I agree. Where are they going to get the pilots from?
Gulf Air is about to announce a requirment for 40 to 50 DE 340 drivers aswell. I think Gulf management assumed Singapore Airlines pilots available in droves. But are they?
EK the more professionally desirable but I think there will have to be a premium paid. This may become a poaching exercise as opposed to an available pool of unemployed pilots.
I agree. Where are they going to get the pilots from?
Gulf Air is about to announce a requirment for 40 to 50 DE 340 drivers aswell. I think Gulf management assumed Singapore Airlines pilots available in droves. But are they?
EK the more professionally desirable but I think there will have to be a premium paid. This may become a poaching exercise as opposed to an available pool of unemployed pilots.
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The locals in Singapore Airlines will not move an inch, so forget any of them being available to join EK. Their technique is to encourage ex-pats to seek pastures greener, in the hope of an exodus which will then force the airline (read government) to up the salary package and thus ultimately benefit this “home team”.
The ex-pats to date who’ve been given the bullet (an unnecessary, highly political and ultimately futile “exercise”) in the main seem to be about to move to China Airlines (relatively good salary package) rather than consider EK with much enthusiasm. As far as I can gather, the feeling is of a poison chalice being taken up if they move there (antipathy from future colleagues) plus the salary package being much inferior to that of CAL. Similarly, the ex-pat pilots with sufficient “merit” to remain with SQ for the time being are also unimpressed with the perception of the EK DE package, judging it simply not worth the effort of a shift to the desert.
The ex-pats to date who’ve been given the bullet (an unnecessary, highly political and ultimately futile “exercise”) in the main seem to be about to move to China Airlines (relatively good salary package) rather than consider EK with much enthusiasm. As far as I can gather, the feeling is of a poison chalice being taken up if they move there (antipathy from future colleagues) plus the salary package being much inferior to that of CAL. Similarly, the ex-pat pilots with sufficient “merit” to remain with SQ for the time being are also unimpressed with the perception of the EK DE package, judging it simply not worth the effort of a shift to the desert.
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Fish I suggest you address your remarks about 'aggressive and personal' to Pontious as I was merely responding to his rude ourbursts.
If you look through this subject and see what exactly has been Pontious's contribution you will find that all he is capable of is abuse to ALL contributors not just me. Even now he just cannot avoid being personal.
Over on the Middle East forum under Accelerated Commands Pontious informs everyone that he has been on Line a Whole Month!!!
Now unless he is a complete Retard (and one could perhaps be excused for thinking he is judging by the quality of his postings) then I guess he has been in Emirates for 3-4 Months, so being still Wet behind the Ears perhaps explains why he has nothing worthwhile to say on this subject and shows his real character by resorting to abusive language.
Rev Dr D You ask whether I would be interested in 30000Dirhams per month which = £5000 or US$8000. No is the Answer This is not a contract Salary. If EK are looking for longterm permanent positions they might just get away with this .
Pontious If I were to join EK on the salaries mentioned I would certainly not brag about it to my one and only friend!! I would keep it very quiet as he would think I had lost my marbles!!
If you look through this subject and see what exactly has been Pontious's contribution you will find that all he is capable of is abuse to ALL contributors not just me. Even now he just cannot avoid being personal.
Over on the Middle East forum under Accelerated Commands Pontious informs everyone that he has been on Line a Whole Month!!!
Now unless he is a complete Retard (and one could perhaps be excused for thinking he is judging by the quality of his postings) then I guess he has been in Emirates for 3-4 Months, so being still Wet behind the Ears perhaps explains why he has nothing worthwhile to say on this subject and shows his real character by resorting to abusive language.
Rev Dr D You ask whether I would be interested in 30000Dirhams per month which = £5000 or US$8000. No is the Answer This is not a contract Salary. If EK are looking for longterm permanent positions they might just get away with this .
Pontious If I were to join EK on the salaries mentioned I would certainly not brag about it to my one and only friend!! I would keep it very quiet as he would think I had lost my marbles!!
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411A I have just looked up the Emirates Web Site where full details are given of the Package.
They have widened the Net to include A330 Pilots but also anything above 55000kgs.
Salary is Dhs 23920 per month= £4000Stg or US$6400 per month plus a few extra odds and ends.
Positions are PERMANENT so could attract a few disaffected Charter Airline Pilots who fancy a few years in the Desert. + Garuda./Phillipine Airlines . Doubt if any Air France or Lufthansa Pilots will be knocking at the door!! Not a very good deal but it depends on your situation.
They have widened the Net to include A330 Pilots but also anything above 55000kgs.
Salary is Dhs 23920 per month= £4000Stg or US$6400 per month plus a few extra odds and ends.
Positions are PERMANENT so could attract a few disaffected Charter Airline Pilots who fancy a few years in the Desert. + Garuda./Phillipine Airlines . Doubt if any Air France or Lufthansa Pilots will be knocking at the door!! Not a very good deal but it depends on your situation.
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Hi All,
The DE CPT requirements seem to have changed AGAIN....
On www.emiratesgroupcareers.com the requirements are now:
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS
Requirements for Position of Direct Entry Captain
A minimum of 10,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 3,000 hours in command of multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft in excess of 55,000 KGS MTOW
Preference for short listing will be given to A340/A330 rated pilots and those with wide body experience. A background in training would also be advantageous.
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be less than 56 years on joining
Experience commensurate with age
In the previous 2 company requirement MEMO's (last one less than 24hrs ago!), widebody or type rated experience was required....now they seem to have changed it AGAIN...to ">55T command". Means B737, A320 a.s.o. guys can apply now as well!!! This will make open the door to a hell more canidates!!!
Don't know what I have to think about all of this...EK is a very dynamic company, but changing requirements AGAIN in less than 24hrs....Don't know, but what will change after this, salaries, accomodation allowances.....???? Make up your mind guys!
It used to be a nice company to work for since I joined (+1 year), but it all seems to degrade very, very rapidly!!!
Guys wanting to join now....please think twice before coming over! I probably wouldn't do it again with all I have seen in the last couple of weeks.
To make it clear, I personally understand that there is a requirement for some DE CPT's, but the way requirements come down, from high requirements (wide-body, type-rated...etc...), to a lot lower requirements, bothers me...and probably not only me!
CU,
If I will still be here!!?? ... I'll probably start to look around for something else!
The DE CPT requirements seem to have changed AGAIN....
On www.emiratesgroupcareers.com the requirements are now:
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS
Requirements for Position of Direct Entry Captain
A minimum of 10,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 3,000 hours in command of multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft in excess of 55,000 KGS MTOW
Preference for short listing will be given to A340/A330 rated pilots and those with wide body experience. A background in training would also be advantageous.
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be less than 56 years on joining
Experience commensurate with age
In the previous 2 company requirement MEMO's (last one less than 24hrs ago!), widebody or type rated experience was required....now they seem to have changed it AGAIN...to ">55T command". Means B737, A320 a.s.o. guys can apply now as well!!! This will make open the door to a hell more canidates!!!
Don't know what I have to think about all of this...EK is a very dynamic company, but changing requirements AGAIN in less than 24hrs....Don't know, but what will change after this, salaries, accomodation allowances.....???? Make up your mind guys!
It used to be a nice company to work for since I joined (+1 year), but it all seems to degrade very, very rapidly!!!
Guys wanting to join now....please think twice before coming over! I probably wouldn't do it again with all I have seen in the last couple of weeks.
To make it clear, I personally understand that there is a requirement for some DE CPT's, but the way requirements come down, from high requirements (wide-body, type-rated...etc...), to a lot lower requirements, bothers me...and probably not only me!
CU,
If I will still be here!!?? ... I'll probably start to look around for something else!
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Wouldn't that be ironic if they ended up taking 737 or A320 drivers over our experienced F/O's.
Not that I have anything against 737 or 320 drivers, but you can't convince me that guys with narrow body experience (albeit sh*tloads of it) are a huge improvement on our experienced F/O's who have time on type, know the routes and company and the company knows them.
Interesting times ahead for sure
Cop U Later
The Rev
Not that I have anything against 737 or 320 drivers, but you can't convince me that guys with narrow body experience (albeit sh*tloads of it) are a huge improvement on our experienced F/O's who have time on type, know the routes and company and the company knows them.
Interesting times ahead for sure
Cop U Later
The Rev
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EK380 you scare easy....If the requirements have changed to widden the net then surely this will catch more current EK F/Os who can take some of these commands. If that is so, then as a group, the accellerated command guys waiting their turn must be better off. Even if just one current F/O qualifies then the guys behind him move up the line. Am I missing somethine here? These are new a/c orders that no one had planned until very recently, certanly after all but the most recently recruited F/O's joined EK. So time to command has not been delayed from what it appeared at time of joining. What has happened is that the opportunity for an even faster command has not been offered..at least not to all, as some guys within EK will have the hours and will therefor benefit.
("In comming....")
("In comming....")
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Max,
You are almost correct. I think for many F/O', command will be somewhere near where they would have been had we not purchased these extra aircraft which forced the requirement for DE captains.
There is however a large group of 777 F/O's who are now stuck on type (because there are no transition upgrades and no new aircraft deliveries for some time) who will probably be looking at 4years or more to command. I know that is not a long time in the big scheme of things, but it does take on greater signifigance when you have been bypassed by your mate on the 330, and the company is hiring DEC's
The additional problem from a morale point of view is that once the company has taken the step toward DE commands, there can be no guarantee (given EK's history of not honoring the agreements it makes with joining pilots) where it will all end.
It would seem to me that on the surface DE commands will provide a reasonable cost saving to the company, and having watched this company operate for some years now, I am concerned that they will keep the DE option open long after the real requirement has been fulfilled.
The main argument against this is that I believe the effects would soon be seen in the recruiting department. i.e fewer applications by far less experienced F/O's.
Cop U Later
The Rev
You are almost correct. I think for many F/O', command will be somewhere near where they would have been had we not purchased these extra aircraft which forced the requirement for DE captains.
There is however a large group of 777 F/O's who are now stuck on type (because there are no transition upgrades and no new aircraft deliveries for some time) who will probably be looking at 4years or more to command. I know that is not a long time in the big scheme of things, but it does take on greater signifigance when you have been bypassed by your mate on the 330, and the company is hiring DEC's
The additional problem from a morale point of view is that once the company has taken the step toward DE commands, there can be no guarantee (given EK's history of not honoring the agreements it makes with joining pilots) where it will all end.
It would seem to me that on the surface DE commands will provide a reasonable cost saving to the company, and having watched this company operate for some years now, I am concerned that they will keep the DE option open long after the real requirement has been fulfilled.
The main argument against this is that I believe the effects would soon be seen in the recruiting department. i.e fewer applications by far less experienced F/O's.
Cop U Later
The Rev
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Sorry to say this, (thought I would be nice...)and many will disagree, but First Officers are a dime a dozen.
Experienced Captains are alltogether different, but with the salaries offered...may be big time trouble.
A re-think is in order for management in regards to salaries for direct entry guys.
Experienced Captains are alltogether different, but with the salaries offered...may be big time trouble.
A re-think is in order for management in regards to salaries for direct entry guys.
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411A,
You are probably right about F/O's being a dime a dozen, but there is a significant difference between fronting up for a job in the USA or Europe, where reasonable workplace practices are enforced (to a greater or lesser degree) and packing your family up for the middle east, to join a company that has shown it won't honour commintments made during recruiting.
Additional to that, many of our F/O's are experienced Captains that are in the process of being shafted. As we all know, recruiting is as much word of mouth as anything else. What do you think these guys will be telling their mates back home at the moment?
Cop U Later
The Rev
You are probably right about F/O's being a dime a dozen, but there is a significant difference between fronting up for a job in the USA or Europe, where reasonable workplace practices are enforced (to a greater or lesser degree) and packing your family up for the middle east, to join a company that has shown it won't honour commintments made during recruiting.
Additional to that, many of our F/O's are experienced Captains that are in the process of being shafted. As we all know, recruiting is as much word of mouth as anything else. What do you think these guys will be telling their mates back home at the moment?
Cop U Later
The Rev
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Pontious, Re: Your post of 21 Sept directed at millerscourt
- Reading ALL of your posts on this thread, are you sure you "Fit the Emirates Bill"?
On first appearances, judged by your postings anyway, I bet you're the kind of guy who,if successful, will be bragging to his friend (note singular) down the pub,
" Ah,yes I'm off to the Big Sand Pit to teach Johnny Foreigner how to fly aeroplanes,don't you know!”
IMHO you seem a little too wrapped up in yourself, have little or no concept of what life in Dubai is like, an inherent hostility t'wards change and a blatant card-carrying, whinging racist to boot. No offence,mate but I don't think you are the kind of pompous arsehole that EK would entertain. But please, feel free to keep us informed how your application is proceeding. -
I’ve re-read the millerscourt posts on this thread and nowhere do I see any hint of evidence to support your suggestions or allegations spat out above. Perhaps you reveal a little too much of your own psyche with this invective – suggesting baggage which may hinder you in your own command selection when testing comes up and in turn, cast doubt on your suitability to “fit the bill”.
- Reading ALL of your posts on this thread, are you sure you "Fit the Emirates Bill"?
On first appearances, judged by your postings anyway, I bet you're the kind of guy who,if successful, will be bragging to his friend (note singular) down the pub,
" Ah,yes I'm off to the Big Sand Pit to teach Johnny Foreigner how to fly aeroplanes,don't you know!”
IMHO you seem a little too wrapped up in yourself, have little or no concept of what life in Dubai is like, an inherent hostility t'wards change and a blatant card-carrying, whinging racist to boot. No offence,mate but I don't think you are the kind of pompous arsehole that EK would entertain. But please, feel free to keep us informed how your application is proceeding. -
I’ve re-read the millerscourt posts on this thread and nowhere do I see any hint of evidence to support your suggestions or allegations spat out above. Perhaps you reveal a little too much of your own psyche with this invective – suggesting baggage which may hinder you in your own command selection when testing comes up and in turn, cast doubt on your suitability to “fit the bill”.