“Stirring the pudding” control inputs on landing a FBW Boeing
 

I’ve noticed a trend of pilots making rapid control reversals on landing, especially in windy / gusty conditions. It’s a 737 habit historically, but I’ve seen it in modern FBW Boeings too (and from pilots with no 737 experience). It’s unnerving to watch, especially in pitch. It involves the pilot “feeling for the runway” rather than making deliberate inputs to the control wheel in response to a flight path deviation or to make a deliberate change in pitch. What does the FBW computer actually do in response to rapid control reversals in pitch? Ailerons / spoilers move pretty rapidly, but the elevator is a massive control surface with powerful hydraulics. Does the elevator actually move much, or does the FBW effectively just take the net input as being close to zero?

We called rapid inputs to the control column in the pitch axis "pump-handling". And yes, on the FBW B777 the aircraft most definitely responded to pump -handling of the control column.

It shouldn’t be a 737 habit, I have no idea where it came from but it’s not a very nice thing to see.

I remember long ago flying on a 707 with a F/O who pumped the controls rapidly in all directions on final approach and landing but, fortunately, not the rudder! The aircraft flew on the intended path reasonably smoothly because his inputs were so rapid that they 'averaged out' reasonably correctly. During the taxi-in I asked him to loosely hold the controls while I reproduced what he had been doing. He was blissfully unaware of what he had been doing, and it was only when the F/E confirmed it that he semi-believed it. We did a couple more sectors during which I tried to persuade him but he never really got the message. I recommended some additional training. But I wondered whether he ever overcame the habit.

People do this on Airbii, too. It definitely responds, and is definitely unpleasant. And regardless of aircraft type, you can often tell when someone is going to do this, even if you have never flown with them before.

If they are flying any approach in good VMC conditions (best if it is an actual visual approach) and keep the autopilot on till somewhere near 200-500 feet. As they get ready to disengage the automation, if they start to fidget a bit and “tighten up” with stress in anticipation (all the more accurate if you hear a couple of fast, deep hyperventilating breaths), you are GUARANTEED to shortly thereafter witness a fine display of nose-pumping and wing-rocking.

Tell me I’m wrong!

A few years ago I did a number of hours flying in a glider with a recently retired BA 747 Captain (I understand he was a Senior Training Captain). When he was flying all controls were making frequent large and rapid movements. When I flew, the control inputs were minimal and as was needed to be in the right attitude. The glider (mass over 800kg and 26.5 metres wingspan) just averaged out his 'pudding stirring' . When I discussed this with him he appeared unaware that he was doing it. I can only assume he handled the 747 in the same way....

Believe me this habit is nothing new. In 1949 I flew as a loader on cargo DC3's. One captain had this habit of furiously pumping and waggling the flying controls on final and especially at the flare. Being only 17 years I thought all pilots must fly like that. I joined the Royal Australian Air Force and started my training on Tiger Moths. During my attempted landings I started to pump the elevator and ailerons even though the was was no wind. My instructor asked me what the hell was I trying to do? Land the aircraft I replied. Well don't ever do that with me again he said and proceeded to demonstrate a perfect three point landing with the control stick hardly moving.
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After graduation I was posted to heavy bombers called Avro Lincolns. They were conventional tail wheel aircraft with four engines. . Some pilots would thrash around with wheel and elevators to achieve smooth landings, while others could grease the aircraft on to the runway with the absolute minimum of fuss. It was from the latter group I tried to learn from and never looked back. it worked.

The years passed and I flew Boeing 737's. Guess what? Some pilots would start their pushing and pulling turning final increasing in intensity as they approached the flare. The same pilots would often add a burst of power during the flare "to ensure a smooth touchdown" they claimed. You will occasionally fly with these types in your career. Pity them but don't try to emulate them.

Even the gloved-wonders do it (what's that pink stuff on the ND?? :eek:)...

This "mayo stirring" habit should have been knocked out of them at basic training. The aircraft is inherently stable. So be lazy and slow with the control corrections.
There is a risk of PIO, in gusty conditions.
They should be asked to observe the control column on a non FBW, a/c with the autopilot engaged. The autopilot is the smoothest pilot going.
Try and make the job look easy, not hard!!
I blame the training.
Before anyone tries too flame me, I had 5k hours of demanding flying, before I even had seen an A/P, .So that manual flying taught you early on how to do it the "lazy and slow" way. I did a lot of it.
We made it look easy as it was easy. The aircraft will fly itself. All we did was stop it hitting anything, with the minimum of effort.

Gosh. One of my pet peeves gets a whole thread for itself!

I absolutely experience this, thankfully not that often but it’s painful to watch. I do wonder how they have got through their whole flying career up to this point without having the habit corrected. I have a theory that there has developed a control loop somewhere in their central nervous system that has the gain turned up too high and/or has too short a time constant so it easily goes into saturation for relatively small environmental inputs.

It can surface at any time but I find the most common is in the flare with very rapid elevator movements, luckily not leading to very much due the the size and the inertia of the aircraft, although it does send vibrations up and down the fuselage from the actuators going WTF!? Same thing happens with stabby stabby on the ailerons rather than one smooth control application then back to datum. Who trains these people?

Also there is an extra dimension compared to the 737 because fly by wire is already partly correcting for any disturbances in attitude. I’ll readily admit that I’m just as guilty in this aspect, it sometimes takes a while to realize you are fighting yourself just as much as the atmospheric conditions. Just let go of the stick for a second and see how she copes is what I tell my less experienced colleagues if they seem open and receptive to advise, release that tight grip..

Have you noticed it first hand or from watching videos on YouTube or Instagram?

First hand

I flew with one exactly like that in my narrow-body (the airplane, not me) days. Around 200’ AGL it would start - simultaneous pitch and roll inputs. You’d swear she was battling moderate mechanical turbulence. She’d sometimes comment on how gusty it had gotten on the approach - with the tower wind given as light and variable at less than 5 knots! I came to the conclusion that she really didn’t know where the ground was and that the control inputs were really an attempt to feel for the ground. She left the flying game 7 or 8 years later IIRC.

yeah it’s crazy how much PIO (not that I’m a trainer or anything) you see demonstrated by posts on social media especially from the RHS (but surprisingly you get plenty in the LHS too)

every time I see it I cannot fathom why you’d possibly be pumping the yoke in pitch like that especially when you look out the window and see almost no change in the
Flight path

every time I see it on social media i think of this video:

One day in the 1960's I was copilot on an RAAF Convair 440 Metropolitan flown by the Commanding Officer. He was an inveterate control pumper and as a copilot I would be careful to ensure my seat was well back during the landing for fear of getting my knees bashed by the flailing wheel.

On this occasion, our VIP passenger was no less than the then Prime Minister of Australia, Sir Robert Menzies. In a nice touch, after each flight the PM would always appear up front and gravely thank the pilot for a safe flight. We were landing at Melbourne's Essendon Airport on a hot summer day and there was a gusty crosswind - albeit well within the crosswind limit of the Convair.

On final, the captain started to tense up and began to see-saw the wheel. I moved my seat back a notch to avoid my knees getting hit. At the flare, a gust caused the aircraft to balloon a few feet and in trying to perfect a smooth touch down, the gyrations caused by the CO's furious stick and rudder movements allowed the aircraft to float just above the runway. We were rapidly using up the 5000 ft runway and we really should have gone around. The CO realised this and closed both throttles and the Convair really bit the dust. The CO slammed on the brakes and selected full reverse which is extremely effective in a Convair.

There was an immediate sound of breaking bottle of booze from the area of the front galley where the grog was stored in a now burst open cupboard. We stopped right at the end of the runway then taxied to the VIP terminal where a Commonwealth car was waiting for the PM and his wife Dame Pattie Menzies. At the terminal the CO parked the Convair, cut both engines and turned in his seat to greet the PM who eventually arrived at the cockpit. In his deep grave sounding voice the PM looked directly at the CO and said "Thank you Wing Commander - we arrived safely despite your efforts". I stifled a laugh, the CO glared at me like thunder, and we watched as the PM slowly descended the stairs to his limousine.

Some years later after we both had left the RAAF to join the Department of Civil Aviation, the CO and I were flying DC3's and F27 aircraft on navaid calibration work. . His landing technique had not improved over the intervening years. I still moved my seat back a notch when he did the landing. By then the CO had amassed over 15,000 hours and his landing technique had never changed.

Thanks for the very funny video, I was laughing out loud for most of it.

In my limited flight experience, but having flown a medium sized jet, then a heavy and now back to a 737, I always tried to work the controls with finesse and sensible inputs, when needed. For some reason I think that 737 pilots are compelled to use this kind of large and opposing control inputs or try to "feel the runway", stirring the mayo so to speak, and it is really funny to watch so much effort for so less (if any) control response for the aircraft. I see it more than often with my new colleagues.
In my previous company we called it "cockpit crosswind" or "pilot's turbulence". To make things even worse, all this fiddling around does not guarantee a smooth landing either.

So I stick with my technique, no pumping the yoke in pitch (why? why?? why???), and so far so good, safe landings, and the occasional greaser to impress the ladies in the back :O

BF

There are two types of pilots out there: those who like stability and comfort overall and prefer minimal inputs, and the "ADHD" pilot who tackles any disturbance to keep the aircaft exactly on LOC and glide and doesn't realises he is just fighting himself at the expense of extra vomit bags for the back.

That being said, as a 737 pilot who transitioned to the 777 I can only say the 737 excels at showcasing the difference between those two pilots. It is a consequence of either old classic that don't fly straight anymore or more modern NG's that show a disconnect between heavy pitch vs continuous and very light roll tendency in gusty weather. There are two ways to tackle the problem: either prefer comfort and allow LOC and GS deviations up to one dot, or fight every single millisecond to nail the indications.

When transitioning to the widebody on the other hand, it is simply a matter of showing people the PIO they are generating in a 777 simulator. That is a training issue, however it doesn't mean it cures the ADHD pilot. Furthermore, having switched over again from 777 to 737 and seeing many wide-body pilots coming back on the 737 in the left seat, there might be a lot more stability noticeable, but that doesn't mean the classic 737 all of a sudden flies straight or the NG wings get kicked around by the minimum amount of turbulence and... the ADHD pilot falls back in old habits. Thank you 737, you are such a wonderful design...

Agree with you there. Never operated (nearly said flown) an Airbus. "If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going.

..also lots of YouTube pilots who seem to rotate without looking outside, eyes inside looking at the FDs throughout the whole rotation