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Inextinguishable fire
Good evening,
I would like to know what you would do in the event of: -an engine fire out of control during an approach. Would you continue below DA/MDA without visual or would you go around (maybe the type of approach would have an impact of your decision)? Pro's and con's. Thank you Tani |
Land. Now.
If I started the approach, I had some confidence the weather is good enough to land. |
An uncontrolled fire (engine shut down, two extinguishers used) means you can rip up the rule book. You now fly to save life. Given an ILS I’d make sure ATC know I’ll be landing no matter what. You’d prepare the cabin for a rough landing and plan for an evacuation after stopping. But I’d be a little more reluctant to fly an aircraft into the ground from a non-precision approach. The less accurate lateral and vertical guidance mean that a tarmac arrival is not guaranteed. But which is the bigger threat, spinning into the ground with one wing off or crashing on an airfield? And even though you might not live, you also owe those on the ground a duty of care. So what do you have to fly over to get to your airfield?
PM |
As an old friend who was a Navy ATCO told me, “if they’re gonna crash, try make it happen on the airport—fire and rescue has an easier time assisting”.
GF |
Things I would consider...
How much will I need to bust MDA/DA by? ILS I'd let it go all the way to autoland. Non precision, I'd bust by a bit, depending on how close to the centerline the approach was. Given that I have commenced the approach, I'm not expecting the weather to be grossly below min anyway. Other considerations... How close is the nearest good alternate? And am i familiar with it? Are there obstacles/terrain on the approach? Or is it over water? Ultimately, i want to get on the ground ASAP... I am happy to break rules to do so, but I am not happy to crash in the attempt. |
Man has actually come a long way on this as far as engineering with respect to fire detection, fire supression and reducing spread of fire in modern aircraft, assuming that it goes According to Hoyle
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AirAsia use this scenario in their Sim screening. ��
They say it’s ‘a test of character’. |
Oh...to the original question...I would land on the ILS below DH...and for an NPA bust minimums and hope for no CFIT
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Originally Posted by Dupre
(Post 10106571)
Things I would consider...
How much will I need to bust MDA/DA by? ILS I'd let it go all the way to autoland. Non precision, I'd bust by a bit, depending on how close to the centerline the approach was. Given that I have commenced the approach, I'm not expecting the weather to be grossly below min anyway. Other considerations... How close is the nearest good alternate? And am i familiar with it? Are there obstacles/terrain on the approach? Or is it over water? Ultimately, i want to get on the ground ASAP... I am happy to break rules to do so, but I am not happy to crash in the attempt. |
Originally Posted by hans brinker
(Post 10106651)
You will have a chance of survival crashing the aircraft close to the runway busting minimums. You will definitely die if the wing comes of on the way to the alternate. The only delay I would consider is changing to an approach with lower minimums that wasn't available before (because tailwinds or something like that) if it wouldn't take more than a few minutes.
I'd have a big problem with crashing on the side of the runway causing a lot of death, if there's a decent chance that the wing won't suffer a structural collapse. |
It all depends upon the size of your Pylon...
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I don't know if this is true but a long while ago I think I remember hearing that in the event of an uncontrollable engine fire that the engine mounts are designed to let the engine separate...would love confirmation if that is true
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Whatever the approach type or weather, I will continue and put it on the ground. If it’s a non precision approach with very low clouds and you have GPS primary, you just fly the bearing matching the runway track and aim for the runway doing a basic distance * 3 rule. Before flying Airbus, we used to rely on GPS only and they are extremely accurate. Much more accurate than some ILS/ NPA in some countries I flew before.
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Originally Posted by Dupre
(Post 10106935)
True, however we don't know whether or not the wing is going to fall off. We simply cannot know enough about the individual case.
I'd have a big problem with crashing on the side of the runway causing a lot of death, if there's a decent chance that the wing won't suffer a structural collapse. |
Ground impact eventually extinguishes the fire. Tough decision time - “suxx to be you today.”
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Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus
(Post 10107073)
I don't know if this is true but a long while ago I think I remember hearing that in the event of an uncontrollable engine fire that the engine mounts are designed to let the engine separate...would love confirmation if that is true
Structural overload (e.g. seized rotor or gear up landing)? Yes (think the infamous fuse pins) but not for fire/overheat. The design requirement is to extinguish the fire... If you've pulled the fire handle (designed to shutoff any fuel source to the fire) and fired both bottles (designed to extinguish the fire) and still have a raging fire it's likely you're already structurally compromised for fuel to still be feeding it... |
True, however we don't know whether or not the wing is going to fall off. We simply cannot know enough about the individual case. The data is full of wings staying on, but planes ending up badly when shorting the procedures training intended. With most in-flight fires external to the cabin air streaming is your friend, on the ground it's poolfires |
1. Autoland
2. Autoland 3. If the weather is so bad and you have no other options but to land at this airport....you’ve already made the decision to land and briefed it as such. At 160kts Vref you’ll be at 800 fpm rate of descent for a 3 degree glideslope. Be somewhat of a firm landing but if you have a chance to flare just a little it’s nothing more then a firm landing. Fire department would have a hell of a time finding you though if the weather is truly that bad. So coordinate with TWR that they wait at the threshold and follow you down. You’re looking at an evacuation on the runway if it’s an uncontrollable fire. |
OP,
You might search hereabouts for the story on Art Stacey’s ditching in Scotland. XW666 ditched in the Moray Firth on 16th May, when both starboard engines caught fire during a test flight. Captained by Flt Lt Art Stacey, the aircraft was being test-flown from RAF Kinloss following a major inspection. The engine fire began about 30 minutes after takeoff. When the onboard fire suppression system failed to extinguish the fire, Flt Lt Stacey was forced to ditch the aircraft before the wing structure burnt through (the strength of the starboard wing's rear spar had deteriorated by 25% after 4 minutes of the fire). Fortunately conditions for ditching were ideal, and all seven crew members were able to get into dinghies before being picked up by a Sea King HC.3 from Lossiemouth. The wreckage was recovered from 70ft of water. GF |
Thank you TD racer
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Didn't ElAl 1862 mess about before crashing?
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Honestly, there's almost no way out and you're going under. No matter what
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This is just an SLF comment, but presumably you could get some sense of what was going on by looking out the window? The calculus seems different if the fire has obviously spread to the wing than if it is confined to the engine. (And I'd hate to be on an aircraft that someone flow into the ground due to a sensor malfunction.)
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I'm sure somebody may take a quick look...aak an FA perhaps
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Thank goodness that the aforementioned scenario probably has the same probability as lightning striking you thrice in a row
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