...so Sullenberger's radar was turned OFF? :uhoh:

Hands up all those who think they will get a Predictive Windshear alert on a clear day or night...

Almost right.
Listening to the radar pulse from IFF sounded like a squawk noise and this was the 'colloquial' term used by the engineers. It stuck and has been used since then in R/T to tell an aircraft to switch on its transponder. The wartime R/T that was used to obfuscate what was being talked about was Parrot. The exchange 'Strangle Parrot' -- response 'Polly's Dead' were used. But we are back in the times of 'What's your oranges?' ' Oranges Sweet' :)

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It is an Urban Myth
 

"Common misconceptions about bird strikes A number of widespread misconceptions about bird strikes may give pilots a false sense of security and prevent them from reacting appropriately to the threat of a bird strike or an actual event. These misconceptions include:

• Birds don’t fly at night.
• Birds don’t fly in poor visibility, such as in clouds, fog, rain, or snow.
• Birds can detect airplane landing lights and weather radar and avoid the airplane.
• Airplane colors and jet engine spinner markings help to repel birds.
• Birds seek to avoid airplanes because of aerodynamic and engine noise.
• Birds dive to avoid an approaching airplane."

This information is from: Strategies for Prevention of Bird-Strike Events


Strategies for Prevention of Bird-Strike Events

Avoiding them? The Startling Science of a Starling Murmuration - Wired Science

Sullenbergers radar I am sure was turned off because no weather was involved in his Hudson river landing. Why turn it on it you don't need it? Flying into TGU with thousands of turkey buzzard I never turned it on because it doesn't do anything to the birds. See and avoid was the only way to miss them. They didn't see and avoid even though he did one hell of a job of putting it into the Hudson safely. Unfortunately nobody was looking out the window as they approached the geese, probably because of cockpit work load switching frequency, etc.

Out if curiosity, what does the A320 FCOM say/recommend re Wx Radar on/off for takeoff to landing?

"Unfortunately nobody was looking out the window as they approached the geese, probably because of cockpit work load switching frequency, etc."

So what were they supposed to do upon perceiving the hazard of multiple Canada Geese attacking their craft?

After the RAF lost an aircraft which attempted to "duck under" a flock on the approach, the mantra promulgated at the time was "birds always break down", so don't do it!

The advice in the Strategies attachment referring to not going around seems sound and logical, which is why I and others are seeking information regarding the Nov 2008 737-800 hull write-off at Rome Ciampino but answer came there none from the Italian Investigation, nor from the operating company.

(See thread "Missing Accident Report"). Since moved from Safety to Questions if the Mods would like to explain WHY??!! :confused:

Birds do what ever Their flight profile permits to avoid the closing hazard.

Of course their are a myriad of bird hazard strikes by all types of birds but my comments are aimed at the statistical hazard to safe flight (multiple medium-large) birds in a regime where little margin exists for multiple damaging sites to the aircraft.

In spite of the Sullenberger incident the largest threat to flight has been lounging water fowl on or near the runway. When startled these birds go up just high enough to maneuver sideways to clear the threat. Unfortunately the plane also wants to go up after reaching Vr.

Once airborne this type of bird again uses its flight ability to peel off horizontally away from the threat. Considering the closing speed between them there is darn little the pilot can do to avoid the birds. The best course is to leave it up to the birds since their programing in this regard is natural.

If we get into the lesser statistical threats like the Sullenberger incident or the Italian B737 other less common factors are involved.

excellent video:ok:

One predictor of how many birds will be aloft is possibly wind direction. At least in the case of geese in the fall.

We hit 3 snow geese on the approach (180 knots ~2000 agl), 1 in the nose gear, 1-2 in the radome (1 ended up inside the dome) around dusk. Later that evening, after dark and 200 miles away we almost clipped another flock a moment after Vr.

Winds were strong and cold out of the north and I suspect every bird was in the sky to take advantage of the push south.

Referring to the fishing boat anomaly, if your plane is smelling like fish, you might attract even more than usual, I presume.

Interesting thread.

A Captain I used to fly with swore by this, that he'd never had a bird strike in his 40+ years of flying by ALWAYS having th WX radar on whilst low level and for take-off and landing. However, he was still spouting this BS after we'd had a bird strike together.

I've made efforts to test this, with zero success. Whilst waiting for a truck to arrive to scare off a murder (that right isn't it) of crows one morning, I fired up the radar played with the tilt, gain and other various modes. The little sods just sat there and soaks it up.

On another occasion, during a landing we spotted birds passing in front of us. I leaned over and turned it on - the birds actually then turned towards us. So I've seen evidence it actually attracts them!

Hi levm,
Should we tell ornithologists that 40 years of using radar to track birds (History - swiss-birdradar ) is actually scaring them away and causing them to migrate?

If you did a PWS test before hand:E
Next time you fly,let us know the speed you reach 12 secs after the TLA reaches the t/o warning position.
Thanks.

De facto.

I do not think you contribute anything to this topic.
As a matter of fact, nothing to this forum.

I would like to believe that a few of my posts were useful,but hey i am not here to please you either.:E

Sigh, some still have " bush " mentality.:hmm:

More problems when bush rats are given new toys with test buttons.;)

Trying to hide again I see. Well, it is a free world.

Give up the fight/argument defacto. Don't sweat the small stuff. There are astute pilots like latetonite who have the wx rdr on for all takeoffs.:ouch:

Apparently but here is my contribution:

Sweep Patterns
The sweep pattern is different in approach and takeoff modes. The system al- ternates between WXR and PWS sweeps.
- PWS and WXR Sweep Pattern in Takeoff Mode ;
Position Dir Radar Sweep Paint Sweep Angle (Degrees) Time
Sweep1 L-R Both WXR data update Both WXR +icons painted -90 to +90 4

Sweep 2 R-L Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons painted +90 to -60 3

Sweep 3 L-R Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons painted -60 to +60 2

Sweep 4 R-L Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons updated +60 to -90 3
- PWS and WXR Sweep Pattern in Approach Mode ;
Position Dir Radar Sweep Paint Sweep Angle (Degrees) Time

Sweep 1 L-R Both WXR data update Both WXR +icons painted -60 to +90 4

Sweep 2 R-L Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons painted +90 to -90 4

Sweep 3 L-R Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons painted -90 to +90 4

Sweep 4 R-L Both PWS data updated Both PWS icons updated +90 to -90 4
- PWS Sweep Pattern ;
Position Dir Radar Sweep Paint Sweep Angle (Degrees) Time

Sweep 1 L-R Both WXR data update Both WXR +icons painted -60 to +60 4

Sweep 2 R-L Both PWSs data updated Both PWS icons painted +60 to -60 3

Sweep 3 L-R Both PWSs data updated Both PWS icons painted -60 to +60 2

Sweep 4 R-L Both PWSs data updated Both PWS icons updated +60 to -60 3
The weather data is updated every fourth sweep.

Every 4 sweeps,meaning 12 secs...
B737-600/700/8007/900 34-43

Took you a week to organise this cut 'n paste story.
Can you find it also for the Honeywell RDR4000? It's slightly different.

Damage Chart
 

Hi All,

Can anybody tell me whats Damage Chart, or Dent and buckle chart, any help will be appreciated.

Sorry Latetonite, i also have a life outside of prune:mad:
I wish you well.

Someone asked a few pages back, hands up if radar can predict CAT. My hand is down.

Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean it don't work for one reason or another. Someone mentioned birds were stupid. Really? Then how the :mad: can they navigate over thousands of miles and find their way home. Pigeons and migrating species. We humans are the turkeys.

If someone explains and proves how birds navigate, then and only then, when they tell me radar don't repel birds I will believe them. Until then I have an open mind.

Well, somebody above asked for 'facts' so did a bit of searching of bio journals. Basically found little relevant information, suggesting that it has not been well studied. However the article below does have two interesting points.

1) they found no evidence of radar on birds
2) they note that others have found evidence

Behaviour of migrating birds exposed to X-band radar and a bright light beam

I read the article and has some good references to follow up if anyone is interested.

So, it seems an open question still.

Some thoughts:

1) power is not an issue - a battery powered laser can do more eye damage than a 60 watt bulb
2) it may have something to do with the bird species and radar frequency mix
3) nothing is ever absolute - single cases are basically irrelevant to making a broad conclusion

I suspect some birds may be able to sense it in some situations, it is just that we o not know what ones in what situations, nor do we know what behavior such a sensation would induce.

About the people who could sense it, this seems reasonable and reminds me of how some people can sense polarized light even though most can not. (e.g. Haidinger's brush - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

May I suggest going to the Transport Canada website Transport Canada / Transports Canada and look for the book Sharing the Skies. You can download the PDF files and read them. The book clearly states that based on numerous inquiries with leading biologists in the field of bird strikes, along with research of peer reviewed papers that ther is NO evidence that aircraft radar is detected or understood as a threat by birds.

This remains one of the biggest urban myths in aviation along with the thoughts that birds cannot be effectively managed for substantial risk reduction.

I suggest reading the book will give you a better understanding of the problem and what can be done.

Over 600 approaches and departures from Tegucigalpa Honduras never turned the radar on with thousands of turkey buzzards in the valley. We always visually avoided them with no problem. Radar does nothing. Visually you can avoid them if you look far enough ahead. If you see them at the last few seconds you probably can't avoid them. We had no problem just looking out the window and maneuvering around them when they were dots, not right in front of you. It worked fine for us but I know some pilots will say you can not avoid a bird strike. You have to look way ahead of your flight path and it is quite easy.

Sully could have prevented his Hudson River landing if they had seen the birds.

He wasn't astute enough. They could have prevented that heroic saga had he dodged the birdies like you did over Toncontin!

I can't lay an egg either - proves nothing. Humans are quite capable of navigating long distance and have done so for millenia.
Unless you can show me that birds have some sort of directional sensing facility (like an eye, but for radar) that will tell them from where the threat direction is coming, so they can indeed avoid the aircraft, I think it is highly improbable that radar has any effect whatsoever. What I'm trying to say is, it's bollocks. Turn on your radar on the ground - see what the birds do? Oh yeah, nothing.

Gkk -
A damage chart shows all the existing minor dents and dings that an individual aircraft suffers during its time in service. These areas of minor damage will have been assessed and noted by maintenance so that a record can be kept.
I have also seen such damage marked on the aircraft itself.