I knew that question was coming, because I have asked that same question many times to line captains and instructors, getting two very different answers. This is a little bit off from the original post's subject, but what the hell.

My airline procedures don't mention anything about when to level off, so I have to rely only in FCOM and FCTM guidance, and the FCTM states that (Normal Operations, Pre Start, Takeoff Briefing)

"In case of failure after V1:

Continue TO, no actions before 400' AGL except gear up
Reaching 400' AGL, ECAM Actions
Reaching EO ACC altitude

- If the engine is secured, level off, accelerate and clean up
- Otherwise continue climbing until the engine is secured (but not above EO maximum acceleration altitude)"

Then, it says (Abnormal Operations, Operating Techniques, Engine Failure After V1):

"The engine out maximum acceleration altitude corresponds to the maximum altitude that can be achieved with one engine out and the other engine(s) operating at takeoff thrust for a maximum of 10 minutes)"

So, given those two pieces of text, what I think everyone should do is secure the engine first, and then proceed to level off, only if above the EO AA, that for my airline is 1500' AFE, making sure you don't exceed 10 min with TOGA Thrust (that's why you start the chrono at the beginning of every takeoff roll).

start the chrono at the beginning of every takeoff roll
 

Technically if you're using FLEX T/O you don't have to start the chrono, you're not using TOGA thrust.

Yes, but the reason I was given to use the chrono on TO roll is that if you have to use TOGA, chances are you'll have too much in your hands to remember pressing it by that time!

Thanks for clarifying I've also wondered about that. I've had sim sessions with both procedures (leveling off before engine secure and continuing climb if engine is not secure) and find that continuing the climb if the engine isn't secure is better. There is less workload with this procedure. Stopping the climb at EO ACCEL ALT is in my opinion pointless, what have you gained, a clean aircraft and a higher speed, but at the expense of interrupting ECAM actions in order to get the PNF help you clean up and adding more workload overall on the crew? If anyone knows the wisdom behind leveling off at EO ACCEL ALT even when the engine is not secure can you please provide us with an explanation.

You're probably right

Back to the Windshear scenario.


I think we are all forgetting that windshear in usually momentary over a very finite vertical space.

If the FACs have given a Windshear warning, the aircraft should remain in SRS once TOGA is selected. HOWEVER, there is a good chance once the maneuver has commenced and you have recovered you will still probably be below your ACC ALT, in this case 400'. In a severe case, you will have had an AP disconnect and be in A/FLOOR.

If you are above 400', having selected TOGA and reengaging SRS, you will need to engage another mode or wait until ALT* to revert from SRS.

RECOVER SMOOTHLY TO NORMAL CLIMB OUT OF THE SHEAR

That's the end of the procedure, from there it's up too you.

I dare say there will be a little of the following going on:

1. Where are we?
2. Are we safe?
3. Was it violent, do we have any cabin requirements?
4. Has my FO caught up yet? Are they onboard?

Etc etc etc

Given all that you may not want to accelerate to give some breathing space so selecting speed would be quite reasonable if the aircraft is no longer in SRS.

OEB 154 is a great example where SRS may not be the be all and end all.

My company does it differently, level off at EO AA regardless if engine is secure or not. That's why I asked.

Airmann, there are a few airlines that do it the same as you... Personally I prefer our way! But horses for courses

Airlines do change procedures here and there. But Airbus recommends on ensuring engine is secured first unless you are reaching Max EO Acc altitude. Also Airbus takes Flex also as limit power and applies time limitation like TOGA.

PT6A: I agree with you, I don't like leveling off if the engine is not secured, like I said, it doesn't make any sense and is more counterproductive, increases pilot workload with little to no gain (at least I can't see the gain, that's why I asked if anyone could).

villas: Where is the reference for FLEX limitation?

Airbus TRTOs conduct standardisation meetings. This was mentioned in Toulouse Dec 2008. Unforunately I cannot access it.

John,

The largest Airbus operator in the world stops ECAM and accelerates..... I found it very strange when I was informed of that also!

PT6.... who is the largest operator in the world?

Air France .... or Air Asia :) ......


either way I'm not too concerned. Most obstacles are close enough to the airport that if you are worried about OEI climb gradients, the OEI ACC ALT is usually sufficiently raised high enough for obstacle clearance that there isn't a Max EO ACC ALT limit.

Securing the engine prior to levelling sounds reasonable. For those who do otherwise I ask why?

The problem with engine fire case is both engines are running so the rate of climb is high and you reach EO ACC quickly. If you level off without securing the engine then you have to continue the ECAM to secure the engine in level flight as putting out fire has top priority, the VFE can be reached and you will have to quickly retract flaps and get back to attend to fire. It can be done, but on your off day you may damage flaps. Even if you did not you gain nothing by doing this jugglary. So take your pick.

a pilot- defence
 

Brilliant advocacy mate!

So much immaturity and showing off without the seasoning to show it from some of our am sure inexperienced members. Its what you get sometimes when jumping straight onto. Push button jets without proper flying in the piston and turborop league...too much
know...and verbal diarhoea and no sensibility and respect for people merely enquiring to learn or making a contribution out of earnest desire to help or stimulate more ideas on the subject matter.

Pprune needs more skyknights like you on the forum chum!:D

Capt Villas repy to WhyByFlier
 

...in a word..kudos! I admire your humility and diplomacy Sir.Such is the language old school aviators were dressed with...and should continue to uphold in the interest of giving
our profesion the name it deserves. Why don't airlines test for maturity too in their psychometric test battery? :D

Above 400ft aal: READ ECAM; confirm failure; my radios ECAM actions

Confirm Engine secured and above acc alt whichever is later.
Stop ECAM; push V/S level off accelerate retract on schedule; green dot; open climb; MCT; Continue ECAM
Somewhere in between usually while accelerating inform ATC.

Thats how we do it.

I wonder who is the biggest Airbus operator.

Cheers

Largest Airbus operator is US Airways... They don't use any Airbus supplied documentation on-board their aircraft and indeed have many airline produced procedures.

I like I said before, I'm not a big fan of the push-to-level-off before engine is secure, you add unnecessary workload onto both pilots and for no good reason. My company does it but I don't agree with it, I would simply like someone to explain what the benefits are because I see none.

Regarding US Airways, yes they have many of their own procedures some of which you can find online. Airbusdriver.net Gives you an insight into their ideas of how the A320 should be flown.

Engine secure
 

i was told this was Generally defined as when " ENG XX SHUTdown" ...Like before you start APU s, fiddle with TCAS etc, Relight consider erc...
Then alt hold / vs speed zero ( 330/320) and clean up... Once engine out turn is complete also normally for most operators...

Also, chrono is irrelevant for TOGA thrust I think.. Just gives pilot something to do on takeoff.... FADEC monitors it and produces an ecam..."TAke off thrust limit exceeded" or similar....?

Well. On R/R anyway...?

And most FMS have a default altitude of 1500 in them from factories.Northrop/ grumman or honeywell..... So any less is company requested mod...

Boeing generally recommend not below 800 feet...( yes I knowmwe discussing AB) This was partly due to accel segments on SIDs..Being 800' ...now removed mostly I think...

And the fact that if you clean up on one engine below 800'feet you get annoyed by the " dont think dont think (sink) GPWS warning due to low rate of climb ...
Any other opinions or corrections to what I have printed , happy to stand corrected...

Chrono is started so that you don'exceed time limit for TOGA, not thrust limit and ECAM has no warning for that. EGPWS warning after takeoff comes not with low rate of climb but decsent.

TOGA if required . AFAIK the bus is FLX single engine certified, in any case you just need to move the thrust levers from FLX to TOGA and move back to MCT, right?

Thats right!--------------(unless there is a rock in the way)

Hi guys
There was never any doubt about using TOGA and following SRS if available. But the scenario was we were in TOGA from take off. So when you reach 400ft i.e.( THR RED/ACC ALT) LVRCLB will flash also SRS changes to CLB. We ignore LVRCLB and keep the thrust levers in TOGA. We are in TOGA but FDs are not in SRS. in that context I had suggested if you are following the FDs, pulling speed to prevent pitch down to accelerate. It was not my intention to contradict SOPs. Now we have two options either move thrust levers out of TOGA(do not have to go to MCT) and quickly back to TOGA this gets the SRS but in GA mode or ignore FDs and fly 17.5 pitch with full back stick if needed. When FDs are there ignoring them is a tough job. If you had moved thrust levers to CLB then you reselect TOGA. You get back SRS in GA,you can follow SRS till default GA acceleration altitude. Also Airbus reccommends not reduce THR RED/ACC ALT if windshear is expected. I have confirmed that even in windshear, at THR RED ALT, LVRCLB wil flash and at ACC ALT SRS will change to CLB.

Hi vilas,

if you go back to TOGA and trigger the GA phase, the acceleration altitude will be the one set in the GO AROUND PERF page of the FMGC which will be, let's say, 1000 ft AAL of the destination aerodrome, correct ? So let's say if the destination has an elevation of 7000 ft, the SRS will stay there till 8000 ft.
Another question regarding the THR RED and ACC in case of wind shear. Airbus recommends not to reduce THR RED/ACC ALT if wind shear is expected but what about the recommendation to avoid NADP in case significant turbulence or wind shear is expected ? I have a little confusion here. Is there any docs from Airbus supporting the fact that CLB or OP CLB phase will engage at ACC ALT even if Wind shear is triggered ? I tried it in the SIM too and it is like you say but just want to make sure it's not a SIM glitch.

Thanks !

Hi sonicbum,
FCOM DSC 22-40
"The windshear detection function is provided by the Flight Augmentation Computer (FAC) in takeoff and approach phase in the following conditions:
- At takeoff, 3 s after liftoff, up to 1,300 ft RA

- At landing, from 1,300 ft RA to 50 ft RA

- With at least CONF 1 selected.
The warning consists of:
- A visual “WINDSHEAR” red message displayed on both PFDs for a minimum of 15 s.
- An aural synthetic voice announcing “WINDSHEAR” three times."

Above 1,300 ft, windshear will not be detected nor displayed, so SRS will change to CLB even if you are still in windshear conditions provided the AA is <=1300.

No.
Destination AA is only used after you have reached cruise ALT or activated the APP phase.

Cruise ALT? Can anyone confirm that FMGC can NOT go into GA phase from phases other than APPROACH PHASE? (A320 FCOM DSC-22_20-30-20)?


My understanding also is that SRS GA mode can still trigger regardless of the FMGC phase provided Conf 1 or more selected.

Hi timmyEGCC,
Correct, but what AA is used to engage CLB and prompt you to select Climb Power?

sonicbum
Actually there is no document that ever said that in wind shear SRS doesn't change or CLB or OPCLB will not engage. But I confirmed it out of curiosity. TOGA after SRS has changed will engage GA mode and SRS will change at default ACC ALT not necessarily of destination. Wind shear detection is a low level function so NADP ACC ALT being 3000ft. it won't apply there.

Thank You all gents