Bugg@red about with good old distributors, points and mechanical fuel pumps on my miniblock 318 in a 1967 Bristol for years.
Stuck in a dragster fuel pump, dragster electronic distibutor and after a month a load of cable as thick as your thumb to arrest the smoke emitting from under the dashboard - transformed.
Now the Only visible smoke is in the rear view mirror - two sources - both expensive - tyres last 7000 miles and a set are €2000 and leaded gasoline 12mpg- but it's the kids money!

blind pew:

Nothing quite like the sound of a V8 in full cry, but my old 1994 Audi will still
leave the smell of rubber in it's wake given a good bootfull and that's with
all 4 wheels driven Brute force or subtlety has always been a taxing problem :confused:

Mind you, there's also nothing quite like the intoxicating throttle response that you
can get from a properly set up set of DCOE Weber carbs aside a well sorted
twin cam engine.

Perhaps we should rename this thread the last gasp of the petrolheads ?, but it is
Sunday after all :)...

Sys68
My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally prefer a Merlin!
Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial flight lifted off.
Bristol's roof open.
The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc.
Ecstasy and legal too :)

Confession, in that bikes were only really ever a means of transport for me,
in the days before I could afford to run a car. The old brit bikes weren't
that bad, but no fun in the dead of winter at -5C, Oxford to Portsmouth and
layers of newspaper down the front of the Belstaff. Little brother still
restores bikes though and has for years.

The Merlin is truly art in metal, with a glorious sound. Last heard one
at Wycombe, when a Spit flew over the field at low altitude. Instantly
smitten.

As for V8's, how about that Shelby GT390 in Bullet driving round the car
park at little more than idle rpm, like a spring poised for action. Boys
toys indeed.

The engine is the heart and soul of any vehicle :D...

@ Blind pew.... Ah! Invacar at Thundersley!...killed off instantly when the gov't sensibly decided on the Mobility allowance scheme. Spaz-wagons , we called them in that politically-incorrect age.

Len Pease little shop in a side street near the Elms. just rebuily Sunbeams and Scotts..had a corrugated lean-to next door with several bike projects there on open -view. you couldn't leave them chained and sheeted, nowadays.

@syseng. You' Sir, are a true masochist. trying to stop the noise of an Alfa rusting, whilst struggling to make the engine run with that wonderful brown MM bakelite distributor cap which had built -in tracking.(the earlier form of theft-prevention which pinched the term.)

@ Cwatters....ARM may be a ray of sunshine in a sea of mediocrity, but one swallow..... (as the actress may have said to the bishop.....or was that Monica Lewinsky?

True to a point, but those old systems are also very unreliable, and go out of adjustment very quickly, meaning you HAVE to be constantly fiddling with them! I mean, what designer ever thought it would be a good idea to have a mechanical switch to distribute 25kV all around an engine, (and tracking and leaking everywhere it shouldn't be), rather than the individual ignition coils we have now, and have a mechanical sliding mechanism to alter the ignition timing? :{

Does anyone remember the "dawn chorus" of the 1970's; when all you could hear in every street in the cold mornings was cars cranking over and occasionally firing, but not starting? :hmm:

Modern ignition, fuel injection and engine management systems are so reliable these days; engines always start first turn of the key. The ignition adjusts each individual cylinder timing many times a second, and also allow for different fuels, using knock sensors.

er...a designer in an age where electronic ignition hadn't yet been invented?? WTF else could he have used???

Oh here we go - and we were all getting on so well.

The transistor was invented in 1948.

Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief.

[QUOTE][Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief./QUOTE]

ERRM....but that's exactly what they DID do! Primary of coil was energised via points....created strong magnetic flux in coil....points opened, flux colapsed, aided by condenser which also damped arc-over at points....collapse induced high voltage in secondary......now the clever bit:8
the same shaft was utilised to drive the rotor-arm which merely guided the HT to the appropriate "stud" in the cap which was assigned to the correct cylinder........the cap served more than one purpose It held the HT leads in alignment to catch the HT pulse, kept damp and dirt out and insulated the HT leads from each other and "earth"

Some very early engines had 2 wires in the cylinder-one was cranked to touch the other and mechanically swivelled to form a spark-gap,as it was fed , initially, with battery-voltage (usually very low...6V was standard-practice before WW2 and early 50's saw standardisation of Negative-Ground and 12 volts.
Let's not forget the "Trembler-Coil"..basically an electric-doorbell without the gong and hammer!
When the speed of V-8's made timing marginal and sparks weaker, Prince of Darkness used 2 sets of points in series, thus almost doubling the available Dwell-time....a kludge but it worked reasonably well.

they developed electronic ignition in the late 70's Rolls Shadows and Spirits had a potted board with 4 transistors, in the Distributor body..a n inductive pickup was aligned to an 8-finned sleeve on the central shaft..as a fin passed the pickup it disrupted the current-flow...amplified and used to switch the coil primary....a conventional cap and rotor distributed the spark-current to the appropriate cylinder.

I think Jaguar , triumph stag, Rover/range Rover all used the same system.

After~20 years, the low-signal transistors became unreliable...car wouldn't start or would cut-out , only to restart after a 5-minute rest and often perform faultlessly for days ,before playing-up again.
The transistors used were at the bleeding edge, in their day....modern replacements ~5p each give instant starting and reliable running...

Give the Prince his due, late to the table, but produced the goods when he got there.

Unlike the modern system, one cylinder misfiring didn't bring everything to a grinding halt

Magnetos were used on early aircraft....still used today...100 years of proven ,reliable technology at work:D

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...rvr/LOTUS2.jpg

My LUCAS experience while stationed at RAF Lakenheath '78-'82. All comments about LUCAS applied.

With respect, Steve, I think you've missed my point:

I was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.

I know how the usual points + condenser feeding ONE step-up coil and then distributing the 25kV works, (I was/am an electronics engineer), and have also rebuilt more than a few engines fitted with conventional electro/mechanical ignition in my time. I also know how easily the 25kV can track and short to earth in the usual environment of a car engine bay in the UK.

A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......

:} been there! customer came in on a dark autumn night...car wouldn't start and he'd bumped it down into an unlit lane without success.
Opened the bonnet ,owner cranked and I watched the scale model Aurora borealis under the bonnet... "hold it" ,sprayed a liberal wafting of WD40 over the leads and ignition, with a gentle breeze behind me..."Right, try it" click WHOOMPF...A mighty sheet of blue flame leapt up the windscreen....and it started.

I learned something that night :O
[quoteI was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.][/quote]
given the materials of the day, I think you'd have struggled! multiple points would have been possible, but the coils would have still been large ,given the insulation and manufacturing techniques available, not to mention all the dodgy LT connections needed.
PVC insulated copper leads were the least trouble but they were outlawed when the resistive carbon-impregnated supressor-leads were developed. (they, together with resistor-plugs go "high" and cause all sorts of problems, but some electronic systems NEED the resistance in order to work!-shorting -out a lead can kill the ignition module :{

The present system is, by and large, less reliable than the single-coil/dizzy model, though i just recently dragged in a Golf with the square-frame coil cooked. (bulkhead mounted)....the ones on top of the plugs get cooked, leading to premature failure...then you HAVE to buy the dedicated stick of all 4.

Fair points, Steve. Ah yes, WD40, the saviour of many an ignition system!* (A friend recommended spraying a can of WD40 all over the engine bay** before each winter. Works a treat! It keeps all the hoses etc as well as the electrics in showroom condition).

* But not as good as the Australian versions: "Start you bastard!", and "For christ sake come on!". Have a look probably on youtube - you will laugh for days!

** do this with a cold engine, switched off, and don't spray the belts too much.

Yes, unfortunately, now that accountants are in charge of every industry, they have made scr*wing us, the public, an artform. Witness; making us pay through the nose for everything and anything they can think of........

Forgive me if I missed it, but Mr. Ford's Model T (Any color, as long as it's black) had an individual spark coil for each cylinder. 6V battery though, not 12V.

The cute little spark coils were each in a little wooden case, and for decades they were employed by jokesters who wanted to "energize" unwitting victims, either human or animal. I'm sure the coils can still be bought at antique car parts shops.

When I was growing up we applied our own "life force energiser" to suitable victims. It was made from a 9V battery, a small electric motor and a 230V to 9V transformer used backwards.

I never realised that Wipac was part of Lucas, even though I worked for Girling which was also part of the Lucas Group. Wipac electrics were even worse than Lucas. I was daft enough to buy the last AJS motorbike ever made, a 350cc with Wipac electrics. That bike was a brilliant illustration of why the British motorcycle industry failed. It was useless in every way imaginable, especially the coil ignition system, unlike the magnetos used at that time by every other motorbike.

Even more so when used in conjunction with Vaseline. As soon as you get a nip in the air, clean the contacts with switch cleaner, douse in WD40, make the connection and smear Vaseline around the rubber or plastic seal. This keeps it all clean and prevents water ingress.

This is particularly useful with electric radiator cooling fans, which are the Achilles' heel of a lot of modern engine designs. A lot of the time when you hear about modern engines being susceptible to head gasket failure, such failures are usually the result of the fan connections getting gunked up and stopping it from cooling the water in the rad when stationary. This leads to hot water being pumped back through the engine, overheating and - eventually - HGF.

The K-Series in the Land Rover Freelander was a special case though, and was down to the Ford engineers not understanding how the K-Series worked (specifically how closely engineered the tolerances were). Admittedly the stock gaskets were pants, but that was a secondary issue. A lot of grief could have been avoided if they'd simply moved the thermostat switch from the radiator out pipe to the in pipe.

The question is:

Does electrikery flow from positive to negative or vice versa?

Depends:
Conventions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tation.svg.png http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
The electrons, the charge carriers in an electrical circuit, flow in the opposite direction of the conventional electric current.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ymbol2.svg.png http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
The symbol for a battery in a circuit diagram.


A flow of positive charges gives the same electric current, and has the same effect in a circuit, as an equal flow of negative charges in the opposite direction. Since current can be the flow of either positive or negative charges, or both, a convention for the direction of current which is independent of the type of charge carriers is needed. The direction of conventional current is defined arbitrarily to be the direction of the flow of positive charges.
In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
Reference direction

When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown. Consequently, each circuit element is assigned a current variable with an arbitrarily chosen reference direction. This is usually indicated on the circuit diagram with an arrow next to the current variable. When the circuit is solved, the circuit element currents may have positive or negative values. A negative value means that the actual direction of current through that circuit element is opposite that of the chosen reference direction. In electronic circuits, the reference current directions are often chosen so that all currents are toward ground. This often matches conventional current direction, because in many circuits the power supply voltage is positive with respect to ground.

Nicely said Busserday. :ok:

Since electrical current is a flow of electrons, which are negatively charged, then the flow must be from negative to positive.

Just where the idea of "conventional" came from I don't know, but it sure confuses the issue.

Yes, true enough.

I suspect that the conventional current flow model of circuits, i.e; from +ve to -ve arose because it looked more sensible and was easier to follow. Circuits are usually drawn with the +ve voltage rail at the top and the -ve rail (which is often earth or chassis earth too), at the bottom. This makes 'reading' an electronic circuit much more intuitive - like a page of a book - one imagines the current flowing from top to bottom, and (usually) left to right, rather than what it actually does; from bottom to top. It makes no real difference to one's understanding of a circuit whether one is thinking of positrons (or 'holes') flowing from +ve to -ve, or electrons flowing in the opposite direction.

I suppose you could ask why we write words from left to right, and from top to bottom - it could be done differently, for example Chinese and some Middle Eastern languages, but it's just a convention I guess.

Now, can someone remind me why positive earth vehicles arose? It was to do with electrolytic corrosion I think - does anyone know?


U

I have no idea, but you may well be correct.

I've found that spoof engine product I mentioned - it's not a spray, but an engine additive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YndLmbXQ

Currently, it alternates.

:E

I couldn't find a positive ground (earth) story I liked online, so I'll make up my own. The few "conventional" ignition systems I've played with had one side of the points connected to the coil, and the other side to ground (through the condenser).

Positive ground would mean that the points switched the positive lead to the coil. Being firmly in the P to N camp, this seems more natural to me. If I were, say, converting a magneto system to a battery, I'd probably hook it up this way.

Haunebu batteries
 

Hi,

What kind of batteries Haunebu used?

:confused:

It's not a spoof product.

Start Ya Bastard Instant Engine Starter- Nulon Australia

Thanks Compressor. The product you've found is a highly flammable combustion assister - sprayed into the intake, whereas WD40 is of course sprayed on the ignition components to drive off water and damp. (I think WD40 stands for "Water Dispersant, mix no. 40", and was developed for the space industry).

I can't remember the name of the equivalent combustion assister product in the UK, but clearly remember its use in starting reluctant diesel engines!

A great thread, only just come across it.

Saying that and all the slagging of Lucas ( yes I've had my fare share of faults over the years).

A question, who does French car electrics? Is it part of Thales the infamous 787 fiasco?? They are notoriously unreliable.

Ducellier, Paris-Rhone...gone...ditto Magneti-Marelli, WIco-PACey C,A.Vandervell -Even the Prince, Joseph Lucas...absorbed into Delphi, along with Lockheed-Girling....AC-Delco, a GM brand....oh dear ,I feel old.
Yet former Eastern Bloc crap like Iskra and Narva are market forces
Recently referred to a Teves braking-system (Alfred Teves) Specialist brake factor had never heard of tham.....ATE? well, why didn't you say!
I, too, heard that electrolytic corrosion, combined with Monocoque construction (less metal to rust away) precipitated the standardisation of Neg. "Earth"
Uplinker has it!
Rocket WD40 was the original name on the new-fangled Aerosol cans and was, indeed, purported to be a spinoff from NASA's Space-Programme. (Program ,for the Septics);) As was non-stick coating on frying-pans (teflon, PTFE)

great nostalgia thread!

electrical theory
 

I also seem to remember the change from +ve to -ve earth was said to be due to reduced anodic (cathodic?) corrosion effect on the bodywork with winter road salts thrown into the equation.
I have a vague memory of the engine starter aerosol being called something like Bradex. Found myself once or twice after spraying a dose into the air cleaner intake wondering whether to go and give it a 'start ya bastard' with the key or just stay there sniffing for a minute longer.

Well, never let facts get in the way of a good myth...

PTFE was invented by DuPont in 1932 - "Teflon" is just a trade name. So its discovery and development had nothing whatsoever to do with space.

Aerosol cans were patented in 1931 in Europe (Denmark?) so hardly new-fangled in 1953 when WD 40 was created as an industrial product so named from "water dispersant" product No. 40. Although it was developed for corrosion protection in military missiles it had nothing to do with NASA which would not be created for another 5 years.

"Septics" is unpleasant and probably racist, even with a smilie. Ugly.

Redex
 

Anyone one remember the upper cylinder lubricant?
Had a mini countryman that after about an hour thrashing her would slow to around 50 mph. Stop at the side of the road, open the bonnet, take off the air filter and give a long squirt into the carb.
Closed everything up, jumped back in and opened her up.
Immediately would attain the dizzy heights of 70+ mph but would leave a smoke screen behind!
Looked in my rear view mirror one day to find the Waggon and horses had disappeared!

A.B. Sorry to have upset your sensitivities,- I guess you would be mortified to hear yourself referred to as a Limey? Nickname rascist? -really???

As an aside, I came from Clacton, Essex, originally, but as far as the Locals are concerned, I.m a southerner and therefore a Cockney...Should I drop it from my screen-name and climb on the outrage-bus? maybe seek compensation for the psychological damage this misapprehension has caused me over the last 38 years?
Aerosols MAY have been invented a long time previously,but they weren't seen in mainstream consumer-products until ,possibly, the late 50's.
I remember telling schoolmates that the "Yanks " (that ok? ) had beer in CANS and each case had a FREE metal can-piercer in it..I took a can and opener into school, to prove it!
We had a detatched place, spare rooms and a good relationship with a group of lads from Weathersfield who would stay for a weekend's carousing with their "wives" :}

back on thread...Redex, Yes! i had a large cylindrical glass dispenser with a plunger-pump atop and a delivery-hose...one "shot" per gallon of fuel...no wonder they needed decokes every 10,ooo back then and a full overhaul at 30K.
Adapted the dispenser to pressure-spray Waxoyl and it was last used to coat the innards of a 172's wings and other tight spots.....after "cooking" in the spraybooth, about 80% poured back out for re-use!

BRADEX- AFAIK, still in business....the product was ether-based and called "Ezy-Start"....many a driver was reluctant to use it, because the engine would become "addicted" and only spring into life with it's application.

A gentle whiff was all that was needed, too much and it'd knock like hell whilst the revs went ballistic! (also known to break rings.)

If you spray it into a .22 air pellet and then put that in a crappy old BSA air rifle and pull the trigger there is a huge bang and the wheezy old air gun becomes a useful tool for actually shooting things...

(..I found out as a 14 year old with a squirrel fixation..)

(Bradex not redex obviously)

Steve, if you can't tell the difference between nicknames and offensive names you're a sad case. Carry on, you seem well practised at it.:ugh:

In 1962 when I was majoring in electronics electron flow was negative to positive and still is. Before that there were two flows considered. AC vs DC are different of course. Direct current comes from a battery or charger, alternating current powers your house or comes from an inverter in an airplane.

Ah Redex! Reminds me of my 14 year old friend suggesting to his dad, who was struggling with an engine problem, that he should put some Durex in it. Got a very funny look.

A B - is a Bob!
 

You are well off the track and suggest that you google cockney rhyming slang.
Being from Sarfend wiv cockney connections Septic comes from Septic tank rhymes wiv Yank.
Similarly horse means tart (& cart)
Apples means stairs.
and good old Bob is a Yank singer and golfer :ok:
Nowt to do with racist - perhaps you should look up your history as I believe that there were a lot of British religious groups and deportees that founded your brave land.

Put more bluntly - as long as we accept "Limey" with good humour, I don't think "Septic" is really any more offensive...