burning alternate fuel
 

Greetings all!!
I'm flying over in China domestically and they require alternate fuel for all flights even if the destination is CAVU. My question is, can you start burning your alternate fuel if ATC gives you a few delaying turns or keeps you lower than flight plan? It seems crazy to divert to an alternate when the destination is CAVU. My Chinse copilots say you must divert as soon as you get down to only alternate plus reserve (45 mins). Any thoughts or even better, a regulation pertaining to this? Thanks

What regulations are you operating under?

CAAC (China)

Sorry I can't help with a reference but if the destination is CAVOK then are you allowed to commit to it under your Chinese rules? If you commit then burning Alternate fuel would be justifiable - since you're not going to use it for an alternate.

I know I will not be able to find it in the Chinese regs, but can anyone direct me to a source in their own regs where it specifically states you are allowed to burn alternate fuel enroute to your destination? Thanks

It doesn't really matter what you do or what the regs say.

You will be wrong, the locals will be right and the desired result from the company will be the most ludicrous you can imagine.

I had a situation inbound to north america with a chinese carrier where the chinese crew wanted to divert into PANC as we were looking like landing at destination with less than reclearance fuel. cavok, planned touchdown with 2.5 hours of gas. But they wanted to land enroute.

freaks!!!!!!!

In the US you're required to depart with a certain amount of fuel onboard (or redispatch-rerelease with a certain amount of fuel onboard), what you do with that fuel is entirely up to you. No requirements for arriving over destination with X amount onboard.

I know the EU differs, though I don't know to what extent.

As far as CAAC is concerned, oicur seems to have hit the nail on the head.

Do you have SOPs? General ops Manual?

Did you have line training at all??

Why not make your alternate the destination and your destination the alternate?

Take off with minimum fuel, fly a little low and fast, then you are sure to arrive at your destination with less than the required fuel. You will then be compelled to divert (hopefully while enroute) to the "alternate" and everyone's happy, especially the passengers.

So basically you're diverting to your intended destination, and not away from it!

I see now why your name is #blip#:E

Blip blip blip ..flat line--------------

Most large air carriers' SOPs and Ops manuals include a declaration that states in plain, understandable, level-4 English that you are not constrained from using common sense. . . . if you get the drift. :ooh:

Why don't you just take extra fuel for those delaying vectors... Once the fuel bill gets high enough the carriers will start complaining with the CAAC and voila rules change...

Yet another 'waste of time thread' started by a supposed 'Captain' flying commercially under CAAC regulations but totally unable to know how to look anything up under the CAAC rules or even in the 'supposed' airline's Ops Manual. Also 'unable' to ask anyone in the airline's management or training structure..

We are being plagued on PPRune by charlatans.

737jock

exactly.

I guess so.
Another of those first officers who magically got PIC time and went through the net...:eek:

You can burn it, as long as you land with more than the final reserve.

But I don't know in china...

I grabbed this from www.chinaflightcrew.com
It looks like you need a lot of extra fuel.... You can decide how much you trust the website...


FUEL REQUIREMENTS
All domestic flights must have enough fuel to:
A. Fly to the airport to which the flight was dispatched;
B. Thereafter, fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (if an alternate is
required) for the airport to which dispatched; and
C. Thereafter, fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption.
Certificate holders who are authorized by CAAC can determine the fuel requirement
by means of flying from specified airport to alternate. No person may dispatch or take off an
airplane unless it has enough fuel to fly from the specified airport to and land at an alternate
airport, and thereafter fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption. But the fuel
quantity is not less than the requirement to fly to destination dispatched, and thereafter fly
for 2 hours at normal cruising fuel consumption.
The fuel required for a flag flight landing within the contiguous China is the same as
for domestic flights.

Nonturbine and turbo-propeller-powered airplanes flight (with an alternate available)
landing outside the contiguous China must have enough fuel to:
A. Fly to and land at the airport to which it is dispatched;
B. Thereafter, fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport specified in the
dispatch
release; and
C. Thereafter, fly for 30 minutes plus 15 percent of the total time required to fly at
normal
cruising fuel consumption to the airports specified in paragraphs I and 2 of this
section or to fly for 90 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption, whichever is
less.
No person may dispatch a nonturbine or turbo-propeller-powered airplane to an
airport for which an alternate is not specified, unless it has enough fuel, considering wind
and forecast weather conditions, to fly to that airport and thereafter to fly for 3 hours at
normal cruising fuel consumption.
Turbojet-engine-powered air carder airplanes, other than turbo propeller, flight (with
an alternate available) landing outside the contiguous China must have fuel to:
A. Fly to the destination, then
B. Fly 10 % of the total time required to fly to the destination, then
C. Fly to and land at the most distant alternate, then
D. Fly for 30 minutes at holding speed at I 500 feet above the alternate.
No person may release a turbine-engine powered airplane (other than a
turbo-propeller airplane) to an airport for which an alternate is not specified unless it has
enough fuel, considering wind and other weather conditions expected, to fly to that airport
and thereafter to fly for at least 2 hours at normal cruising fuel consumption.

Not CAAC… but for reference this is what EU-OPS 1.375 thinks about it (my underlining):

(b) in-flight fuel management.

1. the flight must be conducted so that the expected usable fuel remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is not less than:

(i) the required alternate fuel plus final reserve fuel, or

(ii) the final reserve fuel if no alternate aerodrome is required;

2. however, if, as a result of an in-flight fuel check, the expected usable fuel remaining on arrival at the destination aerodrome is less than:

(i) the required alternate fuel plus final reserve fuel, the commander must take into account the traffic and the operational conditions prevailing at the destination aerodrome, at the destination alternate aerodrome and at any other adequate aerodrome, in deciding whether to proceed to the destination aerodrome or to divert so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel, or

(ii) the final reserve fuel if no alternate aerodrome is required, the commander must take appropriate action and proceed to an adequate aerodrome so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel;

On the contrary, de facto.

A ridiculous requirement such as this deserves a ridiculous solution. This is assuming that the dispatch fuel requirement is in fact required in flight, which as many have already suggested is probably not the case anyway.

So are we to understand that if you planned a trip for 2 hours, and you arrive at your destination at 2 hours and 2 minutes, your supposed to divert? Or are you supposed to divert when you hit a certain fuel quantity?

Also, how tight are they fuelling up planes over there...cruise plus reserve? filled up? I'd be curious if they are performance Nazis only putting on what the flight absolutely needs.

As tight as an 80 year old hooker.

Whats wrong with you?:rolleyes:

I don´t believe that a guy with this type of question is really flying a jet aircraft, on the other hand, I reckon that you always need to have enough fuel to proceed to your alternate, because it´s possible that something (like an accident) close the airport/runway

@Charlie Alfa
Under EU OPS you are eligible to fly without alternate if you meet certain requirements for weather and RWYs at destination and throw in additional 15 min fuel. Just my 5c. But we're talking CAAC here, not my speciality :(

I'm surprised that copies of the CAAC rules are not available to him, and that his Chief Pilot is unwilling/unable to answer the questions when there is confusion...

See post #13

@JohnieWalker

(sorry, quote isn´t working here)


I understand, however in Europe most of the Airports are close to each other and have a lot of runways...

Also, China has some own rules, look this:

Incident: China Eastern A321 at Haikou, Guangzhou and Shenzhen on Feb 23rd 2012, weather diversions, confusion over airports available and an emergency

Then why do you keep on reading this thread? Let alone post on it? Let others have their discussions here, even if they are below your level of intelligence. You seem to get pleasure from belitteling those who are taking their first steps posting on PPRuNe. If you ever were a captain, you would have been the type that laughs in the face of the F/O's when they make a mistake, instead of being their colleague, mentor and friend. Fortunately, such pilots will soon be where the dinosaurs are now.

A CP in Asia spent some time trying to explain how you set Turbulence N1. His answer, "Find an airspeed that gives you the desired Turbulence N1, and that's how you set it."

I guess he had Chief Pilot Infallibility, so he must have been right. Who would I be to question that?

There were also plenty of regs and memos that were only in the local language. Or so we were told. Again, who was I to question that?

And what happens if you divert and it's the diversion airport that suffers the closure? Is your alternate statistically less likely to close?

Where's common sense in all this?
You are flying to airport A with one runway and your alternate B has one runway. The wx is CAVOK in both. It's busy in A and you have 10 mins of holding fuel. Your EAT is in 15 mins. You get to 10 mins and divert, just in case someone blocks the runway at A and you have to divert and arrive at B with less than final reserve. But on the way it's reported that someone has blocked runway B. Oh dear...
What I can't understand is the lack of logic that dictates we divert to B and land with final reserve fuel only or stay at A and land with final reserve + most of the alternate fuel.
Unless you have statistically proven that the alternate is less likely to suffer from tyre-bursts etc than your destination, in which case you need to inform your local CAA and apply for a stats degree.
Clearly the command process at so many carriers is not producing those fit to command.

Just use common sense. Our major airline out of MIA dispatched me to
Barranquilla Columbia with Cartagena as an alternate in a 727. Before top of descent about 150 miles found out both were closed due to tailwinds and weather. HF was our only link to dispatch through Lima and they didn't answer so I called Barranquilla ops and said what is Panama City weather? They said VMC so diverted calling ATC and landed with normal fuel. Sometimes you have to do what makes sense. Dispatch was in a panic and said you didn't have fuel for Panama and I said we didn't descend so had reserve fuel. Sweet justice>