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A quick, informal translation, that may help some of the non-French speakers here.
I'm a native French speaker and have a PPL, but have no further relevant qualifications, so caveat emptor. 2 h 10 min 06 PF: J’ai les commandes I have the controls 2 h 10 min PF: Ignition start Ignition start 2 h 10 min 11 PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ? What's that 2 h 10 min 14 PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de… We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ... 2 h 10 min 17 PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust 2 h 10 min 18 PF: … de vitesse ... of speed 2 h 10 min 22 PNF: Alternate law protections (law/low/lo) Alternate law protections (law/low/lo) 2 h 10 min 24 PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre… Wait we're losing... 2 h 10 min 25 PNF: Wing anti-ice Wing anti-ice 2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31 PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse Watch your speed Watch your speed PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends ok ok ok I'm going back down PNF: Tu stabilises stabilize (could also be, you're stabilizing) PF: Ouais Yeaf PNF: Tu redescends You're going back down 2 h 10 min 33 PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends According to the three you're going up, so you go back down 2 h 10 min 35 PF: D’accord Agreed 2 h 10 min 36 PNF: T’es à ... Redescends You're at ... go back down PF: C’est parti on (re)descend On our way we're going (back) down 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46 PNF: Je te mets en en A T T I'm putting you in in A T T 2 h 10 min 42 PF: On est en ouais on est en climb We're in yeah we're in climb 2 h 10 min 49 PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he? 2 h 10 min 56 PF: (TOGA) (TOGA) 2 h 11 PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, huh 2 h 11 min 03 PF: Je suis en TOGA hein I'm in TOGA, huh 2 h 11 min 06 PNF: (…) il vient ou pas Is he coming or not 2 h 11 min 21 PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ? We've got the engines after all. what's going on (...)? 2 h 11 min 32 PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane 2 h 11 min 38 PNF: Commande à gauche Controls to the left 2 h 11 min 41 PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse I have the impression (that we have) the speed 2 h 11 min 43 CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ? Hey what are you doing? PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening 2 h 11 min 52 Alors tiens prends prends ça So here take take that 2 h 11 min 58 PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là I have a problem it's that I no longer have the [vario] there (not sure that "vario" is, here) CAP: D’accord OK PF: J’ai plus aucune indication I no longer have any indication 2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07 PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ? I have the impression that we have a crazy speed, no, what do you think of it? (in this context, I believe "vitesse de fou" means "very high speed") 2 h 12 min 07 PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas No, definitely don't don't extend them (literally, "don't take them out") 2 h 12 min 13 PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ? What do you think of it what do you think of it what do we have to do? 2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19 CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descends I don't know we're going down 2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45 PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas) there that's good we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon PNF: L’horizon (segonde) The horizon 2 h 12 min 26 PNF: La vitesse ? The speed? 2 h 12 min 27 PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descends You're going up ... you're going down go down go down go down 2 h 12 min 30 PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ? Am I going down? PNF: Descends Go down 2 h 12 min 32 CAP: Non tu montes là No you're going up, there 2 h 12 min 33 PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend There I'm going up ok so we're going down (or could be "let's go down") 2 h 12 min 39 PF: Okay on est en TOGA ok, we're in TOGA 2 h 12 min 42 PF: En alti on a quoi là ? In alti[tude] we're at what, here? 2 h 12 min 44 CAP: (…) C’est pas possible It's not possible 2 h 12 min 45 PF: En alti on a quoi ? In alti[tude] we're at what ? 2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04 PNF: Comment ça en altitude ? What do you mean in altitude? PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ? yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no? PNF: Là tu descends oui You're going down here, yes CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level C’est ce que je cherche à faire That's what I'm trying to do CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level 2 h 12 min 59 PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement I'm at the limit ... to the left CAP: Le palonnier Rudder pedals 2 h 13 min 25 PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là? What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast? 2 h 13 min 28 PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc 2 h 13 min 32 PF: au niveau cent At level 100 2 h 13 min 36 PF: Neuf mille pieds 9000 feet 2 h 13 min 38 CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là Easy with the rudder 2 h 13 min 39 PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up") 2 h 13 min 40 PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas No no no don't climb back up PNF: Alors descends Go down, then 2 h 13 min 45 PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes So give the me controls. The controls to me. PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein Go on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok 2 h 14 min 05 CAP: Attention tu cabres là Watch it, you're pitching up PNF: Je cabre ? I'm pitching up? PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet 2 h 14 min 18 CAP: Allez tire Go on, pull PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling |
spagolia:
Painful reading..... :ooh: Thanks for the translation. |
Hi,
Can someone with technical knowledge put some comment on the graphic from page 111 of the N°3 interim report Comment about the differences of stick-and surfaces positions (elevators and trim) Thank you. |
I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree.
|
I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree. Tragic reading the transcript on post 939, tragic. |
H jcjeant.
From 02 10 15 the roll input is L & R (-8 to + 8) with little back stick. From 02 10 45 to 02 11 30 the back stick varies between 0 and -10, at the same time the stab trim runs from -3 to -10. From 02 11 30 onwards the back stick is held between full back (-30) to about half back but mostly full back; from 02 11 30 to 02 11 45 the stab trim runs to the limit -13 and remains there. |
What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening
... Am I going down? ... No you're going up, there ... yeah yeah yeah i'm going down here, no? ... What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast? ... 9000 feet ... Climb climb climb climb ... But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier ... Watch it, you're pitching up ... Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet .... Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling ... Horrible, horrible reading. They had most of the clues between them but the committee decision didn't work out. :ouch: |
Ref #939 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T I'm putting you in in A T T I am putting you in ATT: That doesn't mean he switched the IRS to ATT, does it? |
Hi,
H jcjeant. From 02 10 15 the roll input is L & R (-8 to + 8) with little back stick. From 02 10 45 to 02 11 30 the back stick varies between 0 and -10, at the same time the stab trim runs from -3 to -10. From 02 11 30 onwards the back stick is held between full back (-30) to about half back but mostly full back; from 02 11 30 to 02 11 45 the stab trim runs to the limit -13 and remains there. But I was requesting advise cause I see differences between the stick position and surfaces position in a corresponding time (discripancies) and I don't think it's can be caused by some hysteresis ... I read some big movements of the stick .. and not corresponding movement of elevator (at same time) Why this gap ? (at least is what I see in the graphic) |
bear, what it means to me is that what he's seeing doesn't make sense. You have instruments doing something unexpected or wrong, a scan breakdown, or both, or multiples of them.
What was he seeing? Apparently, not the same thing the PNF was seeing. EDIT: I just read the released (thanks for the translation) trail of discussion, spagiola. My eyes are wet. Oh, sweet Jesus. :{ EDIT 2: Don't understand this 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46 PNF: Je te mets en en A T T I'm putting you in in A T T 2 h 10 min 42 PF: On est en ouais on est en climb We're in yeah we're in climb 2 h 10 min 49 PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he? He seems to have noticed things going pear shaped early, and called for help. |
Brevet de pilote de planeur obtenu en 2001
So, I guess the "They should make Gliding/PPL/Aerobatics... a requirement" is not the solution, people can still freeze or get it wrong without training/practice. Such a pity, fear brings with it terrible tunnel vision, compared to the high you get when you get to do what you have trained to do. I have to believe that the AoA indicator would have made the difference, particularly if it was part of the 'primitive' panel, i.e., these are real, WYSIWYG, no translation, no airspeed indication just a piece of tin that says "this is the way the wind blows" . Sad |
Hi Alber Ratman,
Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
I mentioned the lack of AOA indication a long time ago, seems the experts at the BEA agree.
http://takata1940.free.fr/aoa1.jpg http://takata1940.free.fr/aoa2.jpg http://takata1940.free.fr/aoa3.jpg |
Excellent translation except:
2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19 CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descends I don't know we're going down this in my view should be read as 2 separate statements made by the captain CAP: Là je sais pas That one I have no idea of CAP: là ça descends That one indicates a descent Further on I keep seeing that the captain is trying to make sense of what are apparently continuously divergent readings. He seems to be getting it right initially when he points to the emergency artificial horizon indicator but then starts doubting when apparently directed towards other attitude information which is in disagreement with that emergency artificial horizon: The only stable reading not in dispute is the altitude (9000 feet not disputed), but other attitude readings seem to be in total disagreement |
Yes, painful.
It's been enlightening to read this thread, technicaly, and now, humanly. Thanks to all of you. |
Takata, thanks for the enlighting insight. Most companies might not feel the need for them. Do you believe that the regulators might think overwise now and with the functionallity of raw data if the main ADIRU's fall down?
PS Those instruments would have been showing +25 all the way down. |
Birgenair transcript (English translation) - compare and contrast:
BirgenAir Accident - CVR Transcript |
Yes, Alber is right, the BEA did a serious job
I am reminded that some said that the BEA would never
1-seriously look for 2- Find 3- Read the recorders, but actually after I put those folk on my ignore list I found the quality of the thread improved:) |
Originally Posted by vanHorck
(Post 6605102)
CAP: Là je sais pas
That one I have no idea of CAP: là ça descends That one indicates a descent Further on I keep seeing that the captain is trying to make sense of what are apparently continuously divergent readings. He seems to be getting it right initially when he points to the emergency artificial horizon indicator but then starts doubting when apparently directed towards other attitude information which is in disagreement with that emergency artificial horizon: The only stable reading not in dispute is the altitude (9000 feet not disputed), but other attitude readings seem to be in total disagreement
Originally Posted by spagiola
(Post 6604857)
2 h 13 min 39
PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up") 2 h 13 min 40 PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure But I'm nose up to the limit since earlier CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas No no no don't climb back up PNF: Alors descends Go down, then 2 h 13 min 45 PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes So give the me controls. The controls to me. PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein Go on, you have the controls. We're still in TOGA, ok 2 h 14 min 05 CAP: Attention tu cabres là Watch it, you're pitching up PNF: Je cabre ? I'm pitching up? PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet 2 h 14 min 18 CAP: Allez tire Go on, pull PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling |
To spagiola
I took the liberty to proof-read your very good translation and this is how it is : I'm a native French speaker and have a PPL, but have no further relevant qualifications, so caveat emptor. 2 h 10 min 06 PF: J’ai les commandes I have control 2 h 10 min PF: Ignition start Ignition start 2 h 10 min 11 PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ? What's that ? 2 h 10 min 14 PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de… We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ... 2 h 10 min 17 PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R (off) engine lever thrust 2 h 10 min 18 PF: … de vitesse ... of speed 2 h 10 min 22 PNF: Alternate law protections Alternate law protections 2 h 10 min 24 PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre… Wait we're losing... 2 h 10 min 25 PNF: Wing anti-ice Wing anti-ice 2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31 PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse Watch your speed Watch your speed PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends ok ok ok I'm going back down PNF: Tu stabilises stabilize (“stay there”) PF: Ouais Yeah PNF: Tu redescends You're going back down 2 h 10 min 33 PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends According to the three you're going up, so you go back down (meaning the three vertical speed indicators... ) 2 h 10 min 35 PF: D’accord Agreed 2 h 10 min 36 PNF: T’es à ... Redescends You're at ... go back down ! PF: C’est parti on (re)descend On our way we're going (back) down 2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46 PNF: Je te mets en en A T T I'm putting you in in A T T 2 h 10 min 42 PF: On est en ouais on est en climb We're in yeah we're in climb 2 h 10 min 49 PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he? 2 h 10 min 56 PF: (TOGA) (TOGA) 2 h 11 PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, hey ?! 2 h 11 min 03 PF: Je suis en TOGA hein ? I'm in TOGA, no ? 2 h 11 min 06 PNF: (…) il vient ou pas Is he coming or not ? 2 h 11 min 21 PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ? We've got the engines yet (nothing is happening...),. what's going on (...)? 2 h 11 min 32 PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane 2 h 11 min 38 PNF: Commande à gauche Controls to the left 2 h 11 min 41 PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse I have the impression (that we have) some speed 2 h 11 min 43 CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ? Hey what are you doing? PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening 2 h 11 min 52 Alors tiens prends prends ça So here take take that 2 h 11 min 58 PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là I have a problem it's that I no longer have vertical speed CAP: D’accord OK PF: J’ai plus aucune indication I no longer have any indication 2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07 PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ? I have the impression that we have some crazy speed, don’t we ?.. what do you think ? 2 h 12 min 07 PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas No, in any case, don't don't extend them 2 h 12 min 13 PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ? What do you think ?what do you think ? what do we have to do? 2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19 CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descend I don't know we're going down 2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45 PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas) there ! that's good ! we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon PNF: L’horizon The horizon 2 h 12 min 26 PNF: La vitesse ? The speed? 2 h 12 min 27 PNF: Tu montes ... Tu descends descends descends descends You're going up ... go down go down go down go down 2 h 12 min 30 PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ? Am I going down? PNF: Descend ! Go down 2 h 12 min 32 CAP: Non tu montes là No you're going up, now 2 h 12 min 33 PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend There I'm going up ok so let's go down 2 h 12 min 39 PF: Okay on est en TOGA ok, we're in TOGA 2 h 12 min 42 PF: En alti on a quoi là ? In alti[tude] we're at what, here? 2 h 12 min 44 CAP: (…) C’est pas possible It's not possible 2 h 12 min 45 PF: En alti on a quoi ? In alti[tude] we're at what ? 2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04 PNF: Comment ça en altitude ? What do you mean in altitude? PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ? yeah yeah yeah i'm going down now, no? PNF: Là tu descends oui You're going down now, yes CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level C’est ce que je cherche à faire That's what I'm trying to do CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales Put the wings level 2 h 12 min 59 PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement I'm at the limit of the stick... to the left CAP: Le palonnier Rudder pedals 2 h 13 min 25 PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là? What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast? 2 h 13 min 28 PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc 2 h 13 min 32 PF: au niveau cent At level 100 2 h 13 min 36 PF: Neuf mille pieds 9000 feet 2 h 13 min 38 CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là Easy with the rudder 2 h 13 min 39 PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up") 2 h 13 min 40 PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure But I've been pulling to the back stop for a good while CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas No no no don't climb back up PNF: Alors descend Go down, then 2 h 13 min 45 PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes So give the me controls. I have control PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein Go on, you have control. We're still in TOGA, right ? 2 h 14 min 05 CAP: Attention tu cabres là Watch it, you're pitching up PNF: Je cabre ? I'm pitching up? PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet 2 h 14 min 18 CAP: Allez tire Go on, pull PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling ! For some reason, I lost the colors but you've cited the speakers. |
Hi Lonewolf,
Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ? Uh, where is he? PNF had already called for the captain. He seems to have noticed things going pear shaped early, and called for help. French talk (especially in high stress context) is using a lot of undefined terms; here, "il est où" could mean "where it is?" or "where he is?". In context, I understand that something is missing on his pannel (like Flight Director, or another indication he was looking at that disapeared) rather than "someone" -the captain. A lot of these sentences are completely meaningless without the tone -might be interrogative, or talking to one or to the other or to himself or even to the aircraft. Following the conversation with notes about the context in other columns add a lot to the understanding. Now, I understand also why the BEA would like to have the whole scene with all pannels filmed as many things said all along are related to instruments and very hard to guess what it was exactly. Vario = variomètre = V/S indicator. The PF lost it at one point. It is a work in progress. Much more will be added but we'll have to wait for the first quarter of 2012, when they will finish their job. |
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