Time again to say thank you to mm for his consistent attention to the core of this thread and the excellent updates provided..

Hear, hear! Keep 'em coming please, mm43.

BOAC; Chris Scott;

Lets say I'm just the messenger. Thank the BEA for their consideration in keeping everyone informed of this operation. They have nothing to hide, rather they seek the hidden!

Anyway, thanks should go to the BEA media team on the "Seabed Worker" for their professional and excellently presented work.
-------------

Note: I'm in the process of fixing the corrupt wmv video file in post #681, and will re-post the link shortly.

mm43

As promised a couple of days ago, I have updated a graphic to show the Phase 3 search area.

A description of the graphic will be found below it.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/a...rea-segs-1.png

The blue and red bordered rectangle is about 36 x 24NM, and the area contained within the blue borders (including the circle segment) is 679NM^2 or 2,323km^2. Within that rectangle, the right-hand area was given a precursory visit during Phase 2 and is currently being searched by the Orion side-scan sonar being towed by the "Anne Candies". The center section is being searched by 3 Remus AUV's operated from the "Seabed Worker" and the left section and the cyan bordered area outside of it is yet to be visited.

References to tracks, times, V/S and body positions are mine, though originally derived from data released by the BEA. The red triangle showing the OSCAR/NOAA back-tracked position for the V/S is also mine, and is not related to any specific data released by the BEA.

mm43

Eureka... Now I get it: V/S = Fin (vertical stabiliser); NOT vertical speed ! :\ :)

Thanks again, mm43. Brilliant...

Chris

mm43, my thanks for your informative messaging, too.

If your current-derived position of the vertical stabiliser (I presume you mean where it suggests it most likely entered the water first) is anything like correct, does it not suggest that the search zone should include that position and its surrounding area, rather than only looking North East of there?

Just a bit puzzled.

Chris N

many thanks mm43
we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed until the 'Seabed Worker' gets to your predicted location!
regards,
HN39

ChrisN;

Terminology can be a killer!

By my current derived position I wasn't referring to time, but rather to drift, i.e. surface currents comprising (OSCAR/NOAA) and leeway (QuikSCAT 10m winds) satellite data. The problem all along has been that everyone and their dog have had a go at determining where the aircraft crashed, and my effort of August/September 2009 is just one of those dogs. Météo France originally calculated a position for the V/S even further to the west, but a committee decision based on the interpretation of computer derived data models and the best input that the BEA could obtain, has resulted in the Phase 3 search area prescribed.

A graphic produced by the BEA in their Interim Report No.2 provides the range of back-tracked positions for the Vertical Stabilizer or bodies produced by the entities named. Anything in red (V/S) or yellow has been added by me.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/a...7-points-1.png

So, nothing has changed since day one of this saga. The aircraft crashed in a part of the Equatorial North Atlantic which is not only deep, but is well known for its often strong and fickle surface currents. The present search procedure using the most sophisticated equipment available, will in the course of "mowing the lawn" find the proverbial "needle in the haystack".

Finally, there would be no point in determining a back-tracked position for the V/S, if the evidence revealed to date didn't confirm it was attached to the a/c at point of impact.

mm43

mm43, thanks. Chris N.

mm43,

As I continue to glance from one graphic to the other (from a short-lived post of his, think HN39 may also be finding it tough ;) ), I notice that the graticule of Lat/Long you (?) have recently superimposed on the original one, in #685, is calibrated in decimals of degrees.

This means that, for example, your own back-tracked position for the impact point of the vertical stabiliser is shown as approximately N03.2/W030.9, which is the equivalent of the more conventional N03°12·3'/W030°54·1' shown on the latest chart. Hope this may help someone.

I'm also a bit confused about the significance of the large green rectangle in the middle of the Nav Wng Area.

It seems that the search is starting in the North – which happens to be nearer the area where the wreckage was found – and, if that produces nothing, will work its way to more promising areas further south and east?

Chris

Chris Scott;

The graphic in post #685 has utilized BEA data which they plotted on Google Earth with the Lat/Long grid selected in degrees & decimals thereof. My normal inclination is to use the Deg Min format, extending to decimals of a minute if required. If HN39 posted something and subsequently removed it, I was not aware of it.

The lime green bordered rectangular shape centered on the 30.7W meridian has been obtained by superimposing detail contained in the BEA departure video. It was identified in the video as an area that had not previously been looked at. The 3 Remus AUV's are currently working it over, and I assume they will visit the part to the south of the blue rectangle eventually.

The cyan (light blue) bordered area to the west of the lime green one has also not previously been searched, and my understanding is that its area contained within the main red/blue rectangle will be searched. Areas to the west and south would seem to be obvious next choices if nothing has been found.

I suspect your reference to south and east, was meant to be south and west?

---------------------
Weather conditions are still relatively good - 1.5m sea/swell from 060T with a period of 7 ~ 8 seconds and the wind is 060T 5/10kts. Forecast for next 48 hours is for the swell to rise to 2.5m from 170T with the period increasing to 12 seconds, but the wind should become light and variable.

mm43

MM43 great stuff.

Don't know how good your French is but are the RUV's responding to interesting objects picked up by the side-scan radar or are the conducting their own search for a debris trail, i.e. the prefered method employed by Cameron and Ballard.

Backoffice;

Not quite sure of what's behind your question. The "Anne Candies" is towing an Orion side-scan sonar, which appears to be scanning in the search mode as each swathe path is about 1800m wide. The Orion has a dual frequency scanning mode - 57kHz in search mode and 240kHz in identification mode. This particular unit and the associated ROV is operated by Phoenix International on behalf of the US Navy and the general spec. sheet can be found at:-

The US Navy -- Fact File

Note: The Orion is being launched from the "Anne Candies" at about 2:40 into the BEA's "first-operational-dives" video at:-

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....tionnelles.mp4

There are also numerous shots of the Remus 6000 AUV's being launched or recovered by "Seabed Worker". The large ROV can also be seen at 4:20 being launched through the "moon-pool". Note the Swiss cheese holes in the side of the moon-pool which are designed to absorb swell surges.

Best definition of the video is to be had by viewing it in the mp4 format, and for those who do not have that ability, it can be rectified by downloading and installing the following Free MP4 Player:-

http://countjustonce.com/a330/free_mp4_player.zip

mm43

MM43 thanks for the links.

Not wishing to criticize what the experts are doing, just recall a TV program where Ballard was searching for a wreck whose position was roughly known but they couldn't find it in the clutter with side scan. They found cruising an ROV along the bottom they eventually found a debris trail (things fall out on the way down), which led them to the main wreck.
Really I'm wondering if this method is practical in this case and if it might save some time, especially if the wreckage has floated outside the main search area.

Backoffice;

I'm now with you.

In the case of the "Titanic", Cameron & Ballard had a pretty good idea where the ship had sunk, e.g. information provided by surviving deck officers, and positions in which rescue ships located the lifeboats shortly after the event. The "Titanic" being a large ship, had all the utensils, cooking gear, crockery, to hatch covers and boilers, along with anything thing else that wasn't tied down to get distributed on its way to the bottom. Even so, I doubt if the mystery trail which they followed to the hull was very long.

AF447's crash location is much more of a mystery. Potentially the a/c could have gone in any direction for up to 40NM in the time it could have been flying from the Last Known Position. That's over 5,000NM^2, or 17,000km^2 to cover. So to be effective, back-tracking debris (the V/S being the largest and first to be sighted) is the logical way of doing it. Notwithstanding, the current Phase 3 search is programed to investigate between 2,000km^2 and 3,000km^2, but not by a "hit or miss" method, but rather by using a "mowing the lawn" technique looking initially for hull sections, wings and engines. Also remember that anything that has made it to the bottom will have only retained its shape and size if it was solid and non compressible. Seat cushions for instance would be a solid object no larger than a small calculator!

It may well be that they do find something else first, but I doubt it. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/wink2.gif

The following is a link to a short demonstration video of the Remus AUV in operation mode:-

YouTube - AF 447 search - Seabed Explorer Remus - March 2010

mm43

Thanks for that MM43 - always informative.

Do you happen to have any information on the deep sea currents in that area, i.e. would they generally follow the surface currents ?
Why do I ask...well I suspect the wreckage went down very slowly due to buoyancy in its construction and trapped fuel, indeed if they do find it I suspect it will be miles from the point of impact. Not good news for the current search but it might be an interesting exercise to try and calculate where it might be say, 24 hours after contact with the surface.

Titanic connection
 

MM43. Paul-Henri Nargeolet is the leader of the at sea Seabed Worker search to locate AF447. He has dived to the wreck of the Titanic more than any other person, 30 times over 11 years.

cc45;

Many thanks for the information on Paul-Henri Nargeolet. He's obviously very experienced in this sort of operation. Strange the press haven't picked up on Nargeolet being the sea search leader - they probably will now!

mm43

locating black boxes
 

MM43... PH Nargeolet was referenced in French as the leader of the Seabed Worker search in the Search Operations Video you kindly linked many of us to earlier today. Curiously, PH was the chief pilot from 1986 to 1996 of the French mini-submarine Nautile and he recovered 10 black boxes during his Nautile career. I suppose he could be called a professional pilot, albeit a wet one....

see Titanic-Titanic.com • View topic - Air France Black Box Seeking Sub Is Titanic Veteran

BEA - Update: Analysis of dives
 

The following video has just been released by the BEA. At this stage I haven't had time to review it, but will do so in about 6 hours...

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....es.donnees.mp4

Best definition of the video is to be had by viewing it in the mp4 format

mm43

Oh dear,

Have downloaded and installed this free MP4 player, but can't get anything to run on it: either from mm43's link, or direct from the BEA website... Ideas, anyone, please? :ugh:

Chris

No problem here viewing the video. Using a Mac with QuickTime.

Very clear images visible of the sonar scans.

Unfortunately my French is non-existent otherwise I'm sure I would have gotten more from this.

- GY

..
 

Use VLC player

Updated BEA map of search area completed
 

Thanks mm43 for the link to the new BEA video on the at sea data analysis. This video plays nicely with QuickTime.

More info is available from BEA at
Information, 14/04/2010

Here is the area searched as of April 14 provided by BEA.

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....4042010.fr.jpg

BEA - Update:Sea Searches - 14 April 2010
 

Flight AF 447 on 1st june 2009
A330-203, registered F-GZCP

Update on the sea searches as of 14 April 2010

Since the beginning of the searches on 2 April:

* The Orion, a towed sonar from the « Anne Candies », has covered over 1,350 km2 ;
* The three Remus autonomous underwater vehicles (AUV) from the « Seabed Worker » has carried out twenty dives and covered a zone of almost 1,700 km2.

The aforementioned areas include the zones outside of the initial search zone, covered for operational reasons, and zones that overlap between the various sonars.

Progress was slowed on the afternoon of Friday 9 April due to the loss of the signal from one of the Remus. The latter had surfaced during the night of Saturday to Sunday and was later recovered 100 km away in the north-east of the zone. During the time the search for the Remus was under way, the Anne Candies team continued operations with the Orion.

Despite heavy rain and stormy periods, the meteorological situation in the zone enabled the team to continue to work in good conditions.

A high resolution image showing the area covered is available at:-

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig...4042010.en.jpg

-------------------

mm43

Video Player
 

Gringobr is correct - use the free VLC Media Player. It works on Win, Mac & Linux boxes and plays virtually every audio & video format.

Get it here.

Video player
 

Machaca #706;
thanks for the link. The Free Media Player didn't work with me, the VLC works just fine under Windows Vista.
HN39

Video Player
 

Chris Scott; HN39;
My fault. I didn't check the contents of the link, and just assumed that the player I was linking to was the same as I had used.:*

EDIT :: removed mp4 player link.

Converting the mp4 format to to wmv does nothing for it, so I haven't bothered doing it this time.

mm43

Thanks Gringobr and others,

The video runs at very good resolution on VLC under Windows XP. Usual problem (as in France) of the French dubbing drowning the English - my French isn't quite up to it at the first listening. Very impressed that the BEA is doing so much to keep interested parties in the loop. ;)

Thanks again mm43, and will try the new version - zip decompression permitting - as a back-up.

Chris

mm43, it is an impressive video, thank you.

Machaca, thank you for the VLC link.

HN39, the MP4 player didn't work for me either - the VLC seems more substantial.

PJ2

Very interesting video.
Played fine for me with Quicktime on an XP PC.

I'm able to play the .mp4 files using Windows Media Player. Just right click the file and select 'Open With' -> 'Windows Media Player'. Hope it works on some of your PCs too.

Good video!

Cute video, but nothing special is said in it except that the sonar-grams are viewed 3 times as they are processed to final referenced form.

As expected, the plane is hard to find in the sonar-grams.
.

They DON'T want to find the Air France A330
 

Look at the BIG picture – this aircraft will never be found or raised.

What would it do for future orders of Airbus aircrafts as well as a substantial loss of French national prestige..

Please broaden you focus people ,. .
The $$$ and National Prestige outweigh the public's right to know and safety considerations.


Sad but True :sad:

Wind (10m) 090T/10-15KT, sig sea/swell 100T/2m, period 9 sec becoming 090T/10KT, 080T/1.5m x 8 sec during next 48 hours. Mostly cloudy with wind gusting to 20kts in passing squalls/showers.

In other words, the conditions are generally good and interspersed with ITCZ type convective winds and precipitation.

Hopefully, we will get some promising news from the BEA in the next day or two, as I suspect the search is moving into the southwest corner of the 40NM radius northern semi-circle. Objects sitting on the bottom, particularly large objects, will give themselves away due to the distinctive shadow area the sonar return leaves behind them. Similar to the radar return (or lack of it ) behind an active Cummulo Nimbus.
http://i41.tinypic.com/s2u1x1.jpg
Happy hunting folks. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ns/mpangel.gif

mm43

Latest three positions of both vessels, transmitted via satellite:

Seabed Worker
GMT: 18 Apr 2010 06:42 COG: 52 SOG: 0.5 Latitude: 3°18'47''N Longitude: -32°-4'-13''W
GMT: 18 Apr 2010 05:36 COG: 265.8 SOG: 0.4 Latitude: 3°18'47''N Longitude: -32°-4'-13''W
GMT: 17 Apr 2010 20:46 COG: 255.6 SOG: 1.8 Latitude: 3°19'30''N Longitude: -32°-1'-21''W

Anne Candies
GMT: 18 Apr 2010 05:37 COG: 172 SOG: 2.7 Latitude: 3°30'31''N Longitude: -31°-27'-30''W
GMT: 17 Apr 2010 07:56 COG: 349 SOG: 3.0 Latitude: 3°23'39''N Longitude: -31°-27'-41''W
GMT: 16 Apr 2010 19:48 COG: 345 SOG: 4.6 Latitude: 2°49'14''N Longitude: -31°-24'-56''W

COG: Course over ground
SOG: Speed over ground

Source: Lloyds MIU Seasearcher service

broadreach;

Thanks for posting the satellite positions for both vessels.

I have plotted those positions, and it appears that the "Seabed Worker" is just maintaining her position well to the west of the search area. The "Anne Candies" seems to operating at towing speed and covering an area in which Météo France originally calculated a back-drift position for the Vertical Stabilizer.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2vjrcll.jpg

It seems to me that nothing of note has so far been observed in the analyzed side-scan results. With many days of this search phase remaining, I suspect a major rethink is now taking place, e.g. what to do now!

Looking forward to the BEA's next search update.

EDIT :: Plotted the towed track for Anne Candies. Spot position heading shows vessel yawing in swell.

Also, on further analysis, the Seabed Worker has been operating within the olive area for the past 5 days. Possibly technical problems with the vessel or equipment, or could just be doing some calibration work with the Remus and ROV.

mm43

The graphic in post #715 above has been updated to show the work area of "Anne Candies" and "Seabed Worker" to 19/1620z.

The "Seabed Worker" has been moving around in the olive area, probably following and recovering as required the Remus AUV's. There are too many positions to show on a chart of this scale, and the last one available for the day has been plotted. Meanwhile, the "Anne Candies" is continuing to tow the Orion along 175°T/355°T tracks and making its way slowly to the eastward with each swathe.

The area the "Seabed Worker" is covering has not previously been identified as an area of interest, but there may be some reason to suspect that AF447 was airborne longer than has previously been believed.

mm43

Thanks, mm43 (and broadreach),

All very clear. For what it's worth, we also haven't given up on this... Good luck to all concerned.

Chris

BEA - Update: English subtitles to First Operational Dives video
 

The BEA have added an English text page to accompany their First Operational Dives video.

-----------------

That's been delivered with a fair bit of "off spin";)

mm43