Where are the flight recorders?
 

Investigators Stymied for Clues in November Air New Zealand Jetliner Crash - WSJ.com

Karl, this article from 24th December's Wall St Journal says:

"At this point, Honeywell experts don't expect to receive the recorders until the first week in January.
A Honeywell spokeswoman said the company hasn't received the recorders and referred calls to investigators."

CVR found 29th nov 2008
DFDR found 30th nov 2008

Expexted to be delivered to Honeywell first week 2009.

What's going on here.....?

Ah, Amex. "yes, ze French legal syteme, she is what she is and you 'ere on your shildish website - poof! you make no difference je pense."

I agree that the French system is intractable. But I strongly disagree with those somewhat patronising, dismissive comments about Pprune. I think PPrune can - and sometimes does - make a difference and there are many examples over the years. Pprune was instrumental in getting bums off seats in the BRS runway resufacing fiasco, and thats just one fairly recent one that comes to mind. Having said that, BRS was - from a pilots viewpoint - a critical situation with a real possibility of a catastrophe. Aircraft were visibly struggling and minor rwy excursions were happening on almost a daily basis. There was a good chance that something serious would happen if no action was taken.

I'm not convinced - apart from the needs of those immediately involved and bereaved - that the same urgency exists here. But suppose it does. I'm not an expert on ICAO Annex 13. What does it say about 'expediency'? Or, as the country of incident and country of manufacture are the same, doesnt it matter?

Rob

Ask AMEX or one of the other apologists for the French bureaucracy/judiciary they seem to find it normal/justifiable.
Given the number of Airbus FBW family A/C in service I find that an unjustifiable stance.
Can you imagine the outrage if it had gone in on the approach to Orly in an urban area with a full load. You have the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they are trying to keep this low key. Just pure chance that only 7 unfortunates dead in this instance, whatever has caused this really needs investigating sooner rather than later.

As for me making an apology of the French system or whatever and if you knew better, you would know how incorrect you are CapPlaystation. (Not that it matters I agree)... So you are wrong, just saying that you guys are getting excited with all sorts of theories over something you know pretty much nothing... That is an accident which took place where and when none of you were at the time. Nor are you connected with any investigation team, whether it is legal or judiciary.

My comments are based on the fact that it is a website which used to be addressed at Professionals (and pilots with that), with, one would hope, a professional attitude. :(:(

Anyway, keep on playing (Cluedo).

I don't think there is anything unprofessional in peoples disbelief that following an( on the face of it ) inexplicable accident, heels appear to be getting dragged with respect to getting the recorders to somewhere that someone can glean some info from them. Unlikely I know/hope ,but imagine another one had a related problem in the interim.
While Rome burns Nero fiddles. :=
As I said, there are lots of these things in the air, incidentally the 777 rollback problem deserves the same sense of urgency, again, some answers are really needed.

AMEX: Your Charges Have Been Declined
 

PPRuNers are an amalgam of global aerospace, technical and related societies. Among us are current and former members of most operations and agencies that make up the many facets of aeronautics. Your keyhole view makes it too easy to assume the group to be made up of nothing but fools. Perhaps in your mirror.

Sad image indeed, Mr. Pot & Kettle.

Concur wholeheartedly (and more in this special case than you probably imagine or envision).

Step on their toes when the due dates have passed and there is suspicion of fraud, and keep thin lipped until then.

Rattler

Karl, Amex and Rattler,


Many of us think that the above situation is unacceptable.
It is unacceptable.
Just because there are systems in place that you are familiar with and have seen in action, does not mean that the system is the best one possible.
Don't just toe the line....ask if it makes sense.

Weak.

The companies/organisations involved in this put out press releases on a regular basis, they know how to relay info to the public.
How about ........ "Information has been downloaded from the FDR and CVR of the Airbus A320 that crashed in the Med in late November. At present specialists from Honeywell are analysing the information and expect to be able to release details of the FDR in early March 2009" or something to that effect......Oh hang on, they can't do that because apparently some French red tape nonsense is preventing the vital data from being downloaded and at the same time risking hundreds of lives. Excellent. What a great system, we should all sit back and be grateful that this whole thing is in capable hands.

Sorry all.
This thread is now rapidly deteriorating, and I'm going to bed.

But for those who read French, hve a look at crash-aerien.com.

Among what is mostly a rehash of what we've seen here, there are a few interesting snippets about the BEA having the full facilities to deal with an FDR or CVR, even if 'rather' smashed up (i.e., having to get to the chips), but also having a legal obligation to get a full copy of the contents, before the recorders are released to the manufacturer for a definitive readout.

Would explain some of the goings-on, no?

The BEA would be legally obliged to at least get a copy of the raw digital record, before releasing the recorders to Honeywell. As those few here familiar with FDR technology will know, that's a slow and laborious job.
And only once the raw copy has been made, one can start decoding.

So give it a break, people.....

I agree with captplaystation that there should be something about the Delta 777 inflight rollback by now, since FDR, CVR and QAR were all avaialbale and undamaged, not picked off the seabed after a 3000g water impact.

But in this case, it'll take time.

CJ

CJ

BEA press release
 

Bienvenue sur le site du Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses

"search at sea not being completed and in the absence up to now of data from data recorders BEA has decided to postpone untill first weeks of 2009 the issue of a preliminary report of the accident."

klakmuf, unfortunately I think it is called "Christmas/ New year holidays"
Nothing but nothing interferes with the holiday of a fonctionairre :=

Looking good for undetected/unrecognized flap asymmetry upon extension for the approach?
.
How does the A320's systems cope with that (or for that matter, with asymm spoiler extension - upon spoilers being armed?)
.
.

Nonsense - the 320 flaps run out on mechanical screw jacks, connected to flap tracks runners connected to the wing PS with actuators that drive all gears through a common drive shaft

the only way to get asy' flap extension is to remove the flap track stops or disable a drive shaft: either option will trigger an ECAM warning, and have specific handling characteristics

secondly, it doesn't explain the rapid (as reported) pitch oscillation




Moderated:

Keep it pleasant please.

Duck

Never say nonsense with regard to aircraft maintenance. The most dangerous aircraft to fly is one that has just come out of maintenance.

Anything is possible, and if 'computers' are involved - Gawd help us.

Fully agree! Remember the inverted aileron control on Luftie's A320?

Thanks for the confidence.:(

...or brand new out of the factory.

IFixPlanes, don't take it personally... you could have top level maintenance engineers of all sorts fixing the plane and all have 100% sure that they'd performed their tasks in the most professional manner, but the only way to find out if all systems sing in tune with each other is when someone uses it for the purpose it was built right after your finest work.

GD&L:ok:

Hetfield

The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!

Ah!!!!!

very stupid!!!

You are flying, and perhaps you think you are the best!
I do maintenance, for more than 30 years, and believe me it is not always as easy as you think it is. Sometimes we have tricky problems, bad or imcomplete reports from crews, time constraints, environmental pressure, organisational problems, and it is a non exhaustive list.

A lot of improvement have been made the last ten years, but unlike the magical pilots, engineers are humans and as such can do mistakes.

Have you been already in a hangar during nightshift, when we try to fix all the problem you had during the day, or in a C-Check, when the only left of your flying machine is a tube, and millions of parts scattered on shelves, or on line maintenance, during turn around, in !!!! weather trying to find why on earth this damned aircraft is veering during to the left 4.5° when all seems OK.

I have been flying a lot, and I realised how a flight can turn from routine to a highly stressed situation whithin seconds, and I do understand why sometimes pilots (human one, not like you) can quick get to reach the limits.

But if I would say that pilots are only good in CAVOK conditions and with no technical problems, that the autopilot is leading the show and that you are only here for monitoring screens and chatting with skirtcrews, you would not appreciate!!! And you would be right, because it is not true!!!

So please, get in touch with a proper engineer to know about maintenance, get teach about humanity, and humility will touch you...
hopefully

QED ? and by the words of an engineer no less. "engineers are human, and as such can do mistakes"
Aha. . . . & then it is bolted together again & off it goes.
As previous posters said, it is not a criticism of your professionalism or ability, merely an observation based on your admission that mistakes can & will be made (Oh & in some cases we talk subsequent to a "bad experience" :ooh:)
We make mistakes, you make mistakes, but we are the ones left holding the baby, trying to avoid "dismantling" your good work all over the countryside.
To further complicate the issue, our mistakes , and their consequences ,are felt in real time. Yours may lie in wait for days, months or years before something goes twang.
I should add, that we sympathise for the lack of "protection" that you don't have from flight time regulations etc.
We don't expect you to be perfect, as indeed we are not in a position to claim or demand "perfection", but please don't question our misgivings when flying an aircraft after it has been dismantled into thousands of pieces, our misgivings are based on hard experience.

Report out on a 2007 United Airlines A320 mishap, blamed on maintenance error:

Timco error at root of United Air Lines runway excursion

Delam
 

Flying control delamination.
It's not unusual to find it and you would expect that if you were to find it it would be on a big check. It isn't a sign of lack of maintainance at the facility where it is found, quite the reverse, they are doing their job properly.
Lead times for flying control surfaces is long although you would expect the next aircraft in the maint line to be robbed of the part required in this case to get the other away.
It's not unheard of for a delay in aircraft servicability off check to be blamed on an item like this when in truth many factors could be holding it up.
Don't think there is anything to see here.

Hi All,

First of all, happy new year to you all (that includes Mr. Engineer), may 2009 brings safer sky to all of us.
Commenting of His Excellency Mr Engineer's response to the issue, is it really appropriate to state that most pilots are in humane?? You are saying that, as would normal human beings do, engineers make mistakes, and of course, pilots do as well- no questions, full stop. But please, most of us do all this for our wives and kids, You engineers do, we pilots do, and if you Engineers are complaining for always being blamed for everything, while you do all the checks so on so forth in !!!! weather, and ask us-pilots, to imagine how it feels to work all night trying to fix what we did during the day, how about us??

If you do mistakes, the worst thing can happens are as follows:

1.Aircraft Crashes
2.You-engineers get blamed, and worse, get in to jail (which is least likely anyways)
3. Us -Pilots??? Get Six Feet Under...

So DO YOU MR ENGINEEER really have any right at all, to complain and say that US Pilots are inhumane?? Think again.... Think... If you still have some spare brain ability to think..... So Mr engineer?? still complaining????

SS

Mod,

You removed my previous and admitedly rather snide, post but this thread is degenerating into a urinating contest between Pilots and Engineers that does our industry no credit whatsoever and certainly is not relevant to the tragic accident this thread purports to have as a subject.

I must say, I also find it very unprofessional that so many posters are happy to bash another country's processes and people - "Well it's alright to bash them, they're French" seems a very low-brow attitude for a group of people whose role in life is aviation - to build links between nations. Just about every juristiction in the world has processes that seem very odd to other juristictions but professional people accept that, respect that and do their job.

BTW, Airbus is not French - if you don't believe me, say it's French in Broughton or Hamburg or even in parts of Spain and see what reaction you get! But I guess we won't let that get in the way of a good bashing session!

Can I plead for a return to the thread subject and an end to the bashing.

We need Pilots and we need Engineers and we need both from all the nations of the world - full stop.

Saman

You lot must hate me
 

As a licenced pilot and engineer who untill very recently worked for a UK company flying on a German AOC based in France working a contract for a French AOC holder that was working for a German holiday group I must have all the ticks in the boxes for all of you to aim some of your petty predudces at !

All I know about this inccident is that two guys that I worked with are dead ( as well as five guys I did not Know) and all most of you lot want to do is air your pathetic childish and unsuportable veiws.

Get back on subject, we would all like to get to the truth of this tragic accident the last four pages has added little to the debate, all it has done is shown some of you to be very immature and small minded

Thank you! Let´s go back to work and wait until we have solid information. Let us show the necessary respect to our fellow pilots who lost their lifes while on duty.
N. rest in peace, I am very sad.

I've got a feeling I'm going to get flamed for asking this question but does anyone know the type of ADIRU fitted to D-AXLA? I only ask because of the other thread about another Qantas ADIRU incident that resulted in a return to land.
I am pretty sure someone here will be able to tell me that they are different bits of kit to those fitted on the A320. ie not Northrop Grumman ones that have caused Qantas grief.
I did troll through looking to see if this question had been asked but gave up after half an hour. Sorry if it's been done.
Regards, Framer.

Sorry if I caused any upset to engineers, not intended, they are professionals also ( and I vowed I'd never fly without a F/Eng.for instance - and never did, professionally ) I just want to fly the bloody things, not fix them ! but they would be less than honest if they didn't also admit that mistakes can happen when aircraft are pulled apart and put together again, and a lot of maintenance is fixing what wasn't 'broke' in the first place, decreed by legislation based on time in service.

Sorry chaps.

You didn't upset me, you were correct. There is always a possibility of errors creeping in during a large maintenance input such as a c-check. It's down to experience, planning and diligence of the engineers that this rarely happens.

Not read anywhere yet what this A320 was in maintenance for, was it just a series of hand back checks or something heavier?

I hope the investigation is able to prove what caused the accident to help us all avoid the same happening again.

IIRC, it was stated very early on that it was basically a 'hand-back' paint job, but.... that implies usually that bits and pieces have to come off, to do the job properly. So the possibility that something was re-installed wrongly has not been excluded a priori.

CJ

So the possibility that something was re-installed wrongly has not been excluded a priori.


Err!...could we have a translation of that statement? :ok:

I should probably have said:
"So the possibility that something was re-installed wrongly has not been dismissed out of hand".

CJ

Ta, CJ :ok:

"Meikleour
The most dangerous thing that came out of the LH incident you refer to was the fact that the LH crew completely failed to check their flight controls before take-off!!"



That is not true. ( I save me my two "!!" )

Correct is: Lufthansa did all the time flightcontrol checks. They also did on this flight. But what was never published before from airbus, you have to hold the stick for at least one or two seconds to the full extend until a warning is sound. They did not see, that the ailerons where deflecting the opposite way. After the accident LH changed the procedure as the CM2 has to call out loud the deflection and you have to start with the left side first.

Cause of this mishap was:
The ELAC was produced in two different versions and at the maintenance shop they installed the wrong plug and the cables were switched too I think.

A long chain of mistakes which the pilots could not break anymore. At least they did it, when flying.

They did a very good thing that was trained their excessively at the A320 fleet. Senior Training Captain Frisch a long time ago emphasized this and had every student to take over control from the PF by pressing the red takeover button. Standard procedure in the Sim in training. Instructor called from the back into the headset from one pilot to do full deflection to one side or down and not let go. The other pilot did not hear this instruction and had to take over with pressing the button or you lost.

You do not forget this experience in the sim!

Hope this clarified it a little for you.

I had been working with some companies and I must say, LH Passage Training was the best so far and they are very eager and open for new things and trying to improve constantly.

The company ( LH Passage ) is spending a lot of money for training and the training department. The informations you receive as a pilot there are way more superior then what I have seen from other airlines. But this also costs money and they spend it for a safe flight operation. The informations and workouts triggle from the Trainingsdepartment from LH Passage down to the subsidaries like LH Cityline, LHCargo and Condor and are used there as well.

Believe me, there are flightcontrolchecks at Lufthansa ;-)

Fly safe...

Confirming Fire's version. Wanted to "protest" myself before.

Indeed. See also this incident (A320 handling difficulties following flap replacement) but also highlighting the lack of warning about the minimum stick deflection time for proper operation of the flying control check warnings... (this link has some good pictures of the ECAM display).

Good stuff CPT Frisch !

Even better if the SOP does not specify which side to start first with.