Quite.

And let us not forget that Vickers BAC tried desperately to upgrade the VC10 but met a BOAC brick wall. The SVC10 Super 200 was ready to go- seating 212 pax, with tip and leading edge root fillet tanks added, bigger cabin doors and true LHR - LAX capability.

Then BOAC asked for it to be made smalelr, and it was a 200s eater, adn then smaller still - all for one airline's (BOAC) needs- thus losing any hope of selling to world wide. Which is also what BEA did to the Trident by insisting it was made smaller with weaker engines - thus handing the world market to the 727.

The Super Super VC10 212 had massive commerical appeal adn I have seen the paper work that rpvies that Pan Am adn toerhs looked at it. It had massive payload/range capacity and could have competed/ exceeded the stretched DC-8s and later 707s - except of course for the Conway's thirst.

And Vickers also came up with not just teh swing nose cargo VC!0 proposal, but also a nose -loading VC10 cargo freighter with a raised cockpit upper lobe fuselage- a picture of which is in the book, 'VC10' by Cole- published by The Crowood Press adn with a B Trubshaw forward.

As Trubshaw says, we Brits faield to develope teh VC10.

Most people blame BOAC - whatever the paradox of that airline's superb VC10 marketing campaign..

Ex RAF VC10 reg'd as G-ALXR flew around with an RB211 on tis port side for months as trial -to test the RB 211. Suitably re-engined with x 2 RB 211s, the VC10 could have been the first big twin!

And the thing was as Chris says, over engineered - but that is why it never suffered an airframe related crash -unlike the 707s - remember the Dan- Air cargo 707 and a failed tailplane spar crack...to cite one example.

The VC10 is also the only T tailed airliner never to have suffered a deep stall and subsequent loss. This is becasue the very large, very powerful
tailplane is high and swept back -placed well aft from the wing wake and thus less subject to the T tail dipping into the stalled main wing wake as it is on the Trident or 1-11 for example.

Such was the excellence of Vickers design work - which Fokker copied for the F28/F100 - which has also never deep stalled into a loss.

All this lack of development was such a waste- as with the hovercraft, the Whittle work, the Rover car company, and so much else we failed to develop or market. All at a time when the French were selling Caravelles by teh bucket load to the Americans...

Oh and on the original thread, Trubshaw did the RAF VC10 tanker conversions test flying using XV 141 I think, and once accidently allegedly exceeded the velocity /height envelope -not his fault -. The VC10 went fast- smoothy and serenely you understand.

The longest VC10 flight in my logbook is 9h 55m. LHR to Barbados in January 1971.
Aircraft was GASGO ( how's that for a classic reg! ) a super.
Headwind too strong for direct flight so planned tech stop in Bermuda.
Fastest track to BDA was via o/h Gander (and within sight of Greenland enroute).
Made fuel so recleared to Antigua with Barbados as alternate then climbed to 410, made more fuel and recleared again to Barbados with Port-o-Spain.
Not a lot left in the tanks on arrival!

Can anyone beat that ( without in flight splash'n'dash ) ?

Thanks again
 

Thanks again to all respondents for their input to my original question in this post. And to all who apologised for 'going off at a tangent' - please don't apologise! That's half the fun, and there were some fascinating insights, information and history from those of you who are really in the know.
Brilliant stuff!

0100, up early in the morning but had to read all this thread, it's really great general a/c chat, thank you all!
Few trips in RAF pax and tkr VC10s and a few trips "jousting" the basket behind them.
On the ground and in the air it always looked great. The best colour scheme must be the BOAC one though as at Duxford. As a child of the 60/70s I had the airfix model in this colour scheme and it epitomised the romantic era of aviation to me.

Great ex-BOAC stuff, now how about Connies. Strats. and Brits. ? :ok:

Was anything from the aircraft (G-ASGN)destroyed at Dawson's Field salvaged and what happened to the remains?

It was pretty violently destroyed along with a Swissair Convair and a TWA 707. I very much doubt if there was much salvageable, if anything. Unlike the VC10 destroyed at Amsterdam where the tailplane was recovered and allowed a rotation around the fleet for repairs as cracks were affecting the tailplane screwjacks.

Now someone will say that was totally wrong.

I flew with the Captain of the Jordan one, an absolute gentleman of the old school called Cyril Goulbourn. He described the sheer violence of the hijack and the crew and passengers subsequent travails in the middle of a civil war in Jordan. Fascinating and sobering saga that went on for about 10 days.

So, we lost 2 BOAC VC10s to hijacking. One at Kano, one at Addis. One quite badly bent over the Andes....... I was not involved!

You've got me going now! I was lying in bed on standby one Sunday morning when I was called out for a 'test flight'. So off we went over Anglia in a VC10 just off maintenance. There followed 4 hours of sheer terror. Maximum speed extension of everything, but what really got my goat was stalls....to stick push. Bearing in mind the superstall incidents with BAC 1-11 and Trident were not that far in the past, watching an angle of attack gauge creep up to 15 degrees, then start twitching, then jump to 17 degrees (I gather if it jumped over 17 degrees, you were living dead) with speed below 95 kts on a 4 engine jet, accompanied by stick push and horns and panoramic view of Anglia was not my idea of an enjoyable Sunday morning which was lying in bed with the Mrs (awful woman, she preferred Boeing pilots), the Sunday Times and mug of tea. I was absolutely bloody petrified, and resolved never to continue my short, and very unpopular 'test flying' career. The horror still comes back after over 30 years. In fact I was complaining bitterly afterwards that this was no occupation for a new father who fancied watching his children grow up and under no circumstances was I ever doing that again! Respect to test pilots, but not for me! I'm a coward through and through- which makes me a superb pilot (well Mum thought so anyway).

Dawson's Field. Memory tells me all four engines were recovered. They were virtually untouched being 'gently' lowered to the ground as the fuselage broke up.

[IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...as/dawson2.jpg[/IMG]

Those tail colours cause a stirring in the heart! To think they went to that garish red white and blue 'ice cream van' colour scheme from that lovely gold Speedbird/blue background. Shocking. But that's what the marketing companies charge a fortune for. And do you remember the 'BEA' logo that nobody could read?

Marketing companies. Don't get me started.

[IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...shirtimage.jpg[/IMG]

Remember the 2 feel unit motors in the preflight check and the loud whirring noise they used to make in an otherwise silent flight deck? I could do a fantastic imitation of the loud hum they made after a couple of really deep breaths. It used to cause consternation when the switches were observed off, or when the tone changed as I ran out of puff.

And one of the first things you did when you walked on the flight deck was put the 10 switches (the 'top ten') inside the door on the left hand side on. What were they?

Wouldn't know being (ex?) avionics :) - and BEA at that. Anyway, here's a Boys' Own VC-10 story for after Sunday lunch.

http://www.vc10.net/Memories/funandgames.html

PS. One more. I was aboard this one. The only time that Transport Command came close to writing me off - that I know of. :bored:

HERE.

Marketing ????
 

During 1967-8 I distinctly remember BOAC ( or their advertising copywriting minions ) coming up with the phrase "Try a little VC-10 derness" - this when the Viet Nam war was in full swing ....... it must have struck quite a note with our transatlantic cousins.

At the height of the Vietnam war in the early 70s, we used to use a route to HKG that took us due east over head Da Nang or Qui Nonh in the centre of the country in the middle of the night. At 37,000', there were no missiles that could get up to us. It seemed remarkable flying with passengers over a Vietnam in full war mode in the dark and seeing it lit up with white flashes from horizon to horizon, and the ring of lights around Da Nang, the giant airbase. Now we fly over all parts of Afghanistan.

Rainboe - I remember those days as well, but then I was a Boeing pilot. Other airlines flew a longer route around Sth. Vietnam if I recall ? but then we used to shove a Union Flag out of the sextant hole - they wouldn't shoot a Brit. - would they ? Ignorance was bliss ! :ok:

The traditional method on which the British Empire was built was to stick a Union Flag (carefully the right way up) out of the window, if they put you in a cooking pot, then a large number of redcoat would follow some time later and make a new swathe of the world pink on the map. Seemed to work well, but failed a bit in the US for some reason, but I think that was because George III went a bit loopy. Perhaps we'll try again one day when Northern Rock is fixed. God knows we've got enough youf itching to stick it to somebody...usually us.

Weren't they for the VGs and DGs and busbars ... and things like that ... ?

Back Every Afternoon ...
or
Bu**er Everybody About ...

aka Hounslow Flying Club ...



JD
;)

"Jo90" mentioned the longest VC10 flight in his logbook. What would be the shortest? Didn't BOAC use VC10s between Aldergrove and Prestwick before dedicating a Viscount to the operation? (Does anyone have a photo of that Viscount in BOAC colours?) Weren't there Birmingham-Manchester flights, too? Was the VC10 ever used for those short hops in the Gulf (Abu Dhabi-Doha or similar)?

Early days certainly saw a timetabled MAN-PIK-JFK and return service, although we had no traffic rights between MAN and PIK. Also, I recall shortish sectors like DHA-BAH (Dhahran-Bahrein), and MBJ-KIN (Montego Bay-Kingston).

One particular flight does come to mind here -an unplanned SHJ-DXB (Sharjah-Dubai) sector, which followed an inadvertent landing at SHJ at the end of a very long duty period from LHR to DXB. This had already included a significant delay at (I think) Kuwait, awaiting a weather clearance at their destination further down the Gulf in DXB. If my memory serves me correctly, the skipper was a newly promoted (but not inexperienced) Les Hawkes and I think it may even have been his first trip in command but I'm not sure. I seem to remember they were carrying out a procedural let-down into DXB when they were asked by ATC to extend their outbound leg; when they eventually turned back in, the picture was misleading as both airfields had runways aligned 30 and they mistook SHJ runway for DXB, and landed. However, they soon realised their mistake and, clearly pretty tired by then, adopted the very practical solution of taking off again and flying the short hop across to DXB, just a few miles away.

It seems that Les took the attitude of "least said, soonest mended" and simply annotated the Voyage Report "1 extra landing SHJ", or similar and, after slipping in DXB, continued with his crew on his planned trip. Normally, this type of event would have required self-suspension of himself and his crew pending approval (or otherwise) from London to continue. Instead, it seems the news only came to light when a bill for the landing fee at SHJ was presented back at Base some time after the event. By then, it was far too late to suspend the offenders and I don't think any disciplinary action ensued. Those were the days when a practical attitude often prevailed, especially if "initiative" had been used.


JD
:)

I believe that the shortest scheduled service was Bahrain to Dhahran. The two airfields were 25 miles apart with the runways more or less in line. The shortest flight in my logbook is 22 minutes chock to chock with 8 minutes airborne (we just managed to get the flaps up) (19/08/71, G-ARVK).

Dave

Rainboe: forgive me my cheek, but you said 'we' lost Vc10s at 'Kano and Addis' - surely you mean Lagos- not Kano. (Addis is correct though for the EAA - 5X-UVA )

I know I am not wrong about Lagos -even if I was but a boy - who lived there who had people killed on it. We were all regualrs on the BA and WT VC10 services to LOS via either Frankfurt, or Rome, and thence Kano.

BOAC had just sold the a/c to the Nigerians. The crew was mix of ex EAA people and others I think.

The cause was a combination of ATC and procedural and weather events and the acident was a key pointer in the promotion of GPW and CVR improvements.

Yes it was Lagos, not Kano. Memory fails, but it was 2/3 of my lifetime ago. Nearly 39 years ago in a couple of months!

Andes, Air Test and Short Sector
 

BOAC was still running the “VC Tenderness” adverts, I think, when I went on the Ten in 1971. We hated the state airline, of course ;), but the advert was superb. I don’t think it has ever been bettered, from an aviation anorak’s point of view; although − in later years − our “Caledonian Girls” and “Start Spreading the News” campaigns were pretty good.

Moving on swiftly, as this is the Tech Log forum: am interested that you remember the Andes incident, Rainboe. The aeroplane (G-ASIX, I think) might have been lost, but arrived in Santiago with cracks somewhere up in the “bullet”, which remained undetected until it returned to Gatwick. It even operated the return schedule… We’ll never know precisely what G-loadings were achieved during what had been effectively a mountain-wave-induced “jet upset”, because shifting freight apparently disconnected the power supply to the analogue FDR − which was a lot more sophisticated than the scratch-foil recorders typical on American aircraft.

One European airline with long experience of the Andes (Swissair?) had published an in-house paper about the dangers of flying near the tropopause. From then on, we used particularly to compare the QNHs at Mendoza and Santiago. If there was enough difference, we would avoid the trop by about 8000ft, i.e., fly low. The fact that we nearly lost an aeroplane through ignorance is another example of my mantra: “lessons (not always) handed down…”

Like Rainboe, the most terrifying experience of my career was a CofA air-test (called from home-stand-by), and it also included testing the stall-protection system − up to and including the stall-ident. The VC10 has two duplicate angle-of-attack sensors for this, but no gauges for the pilots; so a temporary bolt-on system is provided for air tests, and a pro-forma for the test crew to fill in. This provided maximum safe values of alpha for the guidance of the pilots. [Despite what Slats One has said above, it is presumably considered possible to deep-stall the VC10 − hence the provision of the stick-pusher.]

Unfortunately, our stall-ident (klaxon, accompanied by pneumatic stick-push), just wouldn’t work at the prescribed alpha values. The captain − our chief trainer, with considerable experience in these tests (it was my first and last) − seemed to be determined to achieve the “push”; regardless. Each time, he had to exceed the recommended alpha to make it go. The final test was conducted with gear and landing slats/flaps. As always, the pre-stall ignition came on first, at about the right value; followed by the stick-shaker. Approaching the stall, the vibration seems to increase; but I’m not sure how much is merely the effect of the stick-shaker. If memory serves, the first attempt was unsuccessful, leading to a second. Suffice it to say, I (like Rainboe?) never thought I would see an IAS below 100kts on a 4-engined jet in flight. When mine was reading just over 90, the captain finally relented. Whether this was to any extent influenced by my protests remains unclear; he may just have reached full up-elevator. We returned to base, and I think the aircraft was later cleared for service.

My shortest flight as PF was an empty ferry Hurn – Gatwick, after a charter to Tenerife-North and back. [Perhaps the only jet capable of flying 150 pax out of a 6000-foot runway on a 4-hour sector.] The clearance was to FL70, I think. Not possible to use “Graduated” thrust for the take-off, as BOH Rwy26 was not on our list of approved runways. At the standard thrust-reduction height of 1500ft, it became apparent that I would have to continue reducing power to avoid busting the cleared flight-level and/or the (227kts?) slat/flap limiting speed…

I'm afraid my experience of the VC-10 is as SLF but this fascinating thread has brought back a couple of memories. I was up at Embakasi (Nairobi) one (hot) lunchtime waiting to collect one of engineers who was due in from Malawi. An Ethiopian Boeing 720 taxiied out and in the midst of clouds of black smoke use all the runway and looked as though it was going to go through the dead volcano Ol Donyo Sapuk (?) about 20 miles away. It didn't but an East African VC-10 to Addis taxiied out to the intersection, which was about halfway down the runway and blasted off from there. Doing what it was designed to do I guess.
The other memory was of standing in the queue to get my bags and I overheard somebody ask a BA steward what he thought of the new red/white/blue colour scheme and he replied "It makes us look like b****y British Rail". The BCal guys rather liked that.

That is so achingly familiar! I wonder as to the wisdom of airline Training Captains doing some of the stuff we used to do. The dreadful shaking in the stalls, the demonstrations to all new pilots the Dutch Roll characteristics (with somebody at the periscope station rear left side with periscope up like a U-boat captain observing the fin and tailplane waggling and shaking- really scary sight! No wonder the tail used to crack up and the poor screwjack got overstressed!

Talking about the periscope, you could see the tailplane and top of the engine cowlings through the upper periscope, and looking out through the electronics bay periscope was fascinating too. What an over-engineered aeroplane in places!

RAF VC10 C1s for me so we often did odd jobs.
The shortest I ever did was 9 minutes - Boscombe Down to Brize Norton. We rounded it up to 10 for the log books. Routes like Aldergrove-Liverpool or Liverpool-Teesside were not uncommon.

My longest was 9:35 - Las Vegas to Brize - not bad when the RAF C1 carried all the extra weight of the cargo door and re-inforced floor.

Ref: VC10 deep stall - Chris- I was not saying the Ten could not or would not deep stall, what I was saying- clumsily it seems- was that unlike other t tailers, no VC0 airframe has ever been lost due- repeat due to a deep stall.

Yes it would stall, and the protective systems then stepped in to stop that stall becoming the deep or super stall.

Of note, such was the excellence of the aerofoil perfromance that the standard VC10 exhibited nose drop at the stall- remarkable for a rear cg, rear pressure biased, T tailed airframe.

EAA gave up the full stall test after several close calls and after persuading the Kenyan DCA that an actual stall was over kill- so to speak.

With its long front fuselage moment arm and very heavy rear end, it is remarkable that the VC10 was so docile at the stall - the ILushyin 62 copy certainly was not!

I worked closely with B. Trubshaw and he told me once flew a VC10 at the very edge fo the stall envelope after an elevator hinge bolt broke - cited in his book -in fact he ordered a bail out and Mayday but that proved imposible so he palmed the VC10 down to safe but hairy landing. BOAC crawled all voer that one.

But he confirmed that that very high tail and very big elevator sweep back saved the VC10 from being a T tail deep stall dipper. Although the 727 has lost an airframe to the dreaded deep stall, that aircraft too had a very high tail and very big sweepback on the empenage - hence its amazing performance- allied to the big slat parasol wing.

The dear old trident was frankly, handicapped by its stub tail adn low power. The Late Grp Cpt John Cunningham told me of a day when he got the Trident nose too high and very very nearly lost his life. It took about 10,000 feet to coem down- nasty- very nasty.

Does anyone remember when Davies of the ARB had a Standard VC10 spin during a flight test and it was discovered that one of the rubber seals on the wing fence was missing on one wing only? Apparrently BOAC discovered 4 others in the fleet with the same problem...

One of my neighbours was Capt Ronald Ballantine- ex Imperial, RAF and
SVC10 senior Captain. He told interesting stories.

When did the 727 deep stall happen and to whom?

I think he is referring to the Northwest Orient 727 crew who neglected to turn on the pitot / static heat before take off.

During the climb their indicated airspeed kept increasing (imagine that) and they kept increasing pitch to prevent an 'overspeed' until they finally stalled the aircraft and did not recover.

Another short sector was between Birmingham and Manchester then on to New York and vv (1970 & 1971 - BA543/BA544) About 70nm and 30 mins chock to chock. Ok at the start of a day's work , but not so much fun after a night crossing the pond.