use contingency fuel on the ground before t/o
 

Due to long waiting before t/o and if your destination have only one runway, do you think it is possible to use the contingency fuel

Wich consideration you will use?

Captain's decision to use contingency fuel at any time. Destination runways not really relevant!

Technically as soon as the a/c start taxing on its own pwr the flight starts and the inflight policy will apply..

speevy

By definition, contingency fuel is required for en-route ATC and/or A/C deficiencies. ie. If you determine you require more fuel for taxi before take off or for eng.start/no Apu etc, then load the extra fuel. Destination ground manouvres not applicable.

Quite right PT, but once loaded, YOU as Captain can use it for whatever you wish. I don't think you'll find any requirement in JAROPS to rotate with it.

but if you find yourself declaring MAYDAY at the holding point, you'd probably better not take off ;)

Only a very foolish Commander would use his contingency fuel prior to departure.
IF he does so...back to the RHS, or better yet, shown the door.
With a swift kick in the backside.

Yes, in other words, he would be shown for what he truly is...a fool.
Come to think of it, there seems to be some of these fools around these days, at least one having trouble with his...hat.:yuk::}

So 411A, you would taxi back to your gate (if not already taken) and upload more fuel????

I think only a FOOL would contemplate going back to his gate at places like LHR, JFK and so on just because you burnt your contingency fuel.
Think about the time, costs of going back to the gate (holding to wait for another gate) refuel (wait for a refueller), taxi back out again (join the queue again) and then take-off???? The whole episode could cost you hours

You would have to be kidding!!!

I'm sure most would depart and then get the short cuts, altitudes and so on.
If then I'm short on fuel for my destination would I do a tech stop and refuel
(probably at some quiet place down the route). There's always a good chance you can make some fuel up.

I agree that there are some situations where I would replenish the tanks (short sectors with little contingency, along with bad destination wx),

411A needs to be somewhat a bit more practical.

Answers on a postcard.

Capt PB - would you accept a 'PAN'?:)

411a
In this day and age you are more likely to be branded a hero than a fool for going plog fuel, using your contingency and landing with Company Minimum Reserve.
I remember having a discussion in the crew room with my f/o about carrying 200kgs of extra fuel for taxi (delays were expected), someone over heard us and made a complete mockery of us. Others around us joined in for a dig too.
It seems that pilots are de-sensitised about landing with min. fuel, and one seems to be the bigger man by carrying less fuel.
Shame :(

I suspect that 411A does not actually understand the term 'contingency fuel' as this term does not feature in FAA fuel calculations but is a JAR-OPS requirement.
If he does then he displays his ignorance.

- as I'm sure you are aware, the 'others' were probably wrong and the 'taxy' figure on the load sheet (and in tanks) is at the Captain's discretion. I have done the same when applicable - and not a single bleat from any sheep.

Are you sure about that? We operate under FAR121 using 10% contingency fuel.

Mutt

I'm sure 411a knows all about contingency fuel, just the same as he knows about adding 5 tons (B744), to the taxi fuel at JFK for a late afternoon departure, don't think he believes anyone would not adjust their taxy fuel if the need was there and so not compromise their contingency fuel which they may need later.

Mutt

Yes FAR 121.645 specifies 10% of the trip fuel but does not call it 'continengcy'

Scenario… Departure ATIS clearly states, “Expected taxi time is 30 minutes.” … which is now a known fact.

Flight plan allowance for taxi fuel is 10 minutes. At least 20 minutes of additional fuel should be uplifted to account for the known taxi time as stated on the ATIS.

Contingent fuel should not be accounted for known facts while at the gate in.

Opinions?:8

On the other hand, he is well aware of contingency fuel, however feels that to use it on the ground is very poor planning on a Commanders part, when said Commander could well have foreseen the expected taxi delays and simply added more taxi fuel to begin with.

Now, if said Commander decides to use his contingency fuel whilst on ground anyway (as a matter of course), and then (speaking long range ops here) finds that due to stronger headwinds and/or lower flight levels being available than planned...and needs to land enroute for refueling, is showing extremely poor judgement and in addition, is subjecting the company to greatly increased expense (additional landing/technical fees, etc)...when he could well have used better judgement in the first place.
In addition, many long range ops are planned to the limit of an allowed flight duty period, and therefore making a tech stop enroute could well place the airline in a rather bad position, crew duty wise...not to mention a great disservice to the paying passengers.

In other words, use your brain, and choose the best alternative.

Congratulations 411A

I do have to say: "It's unbelievable" the guys are using their contingency fuel just because they've forgotten to uplift the FOB in order to face a probable and many times well known delay during taxi out ??????

UNBELIEVABLE

Oh its believable, but unfortunate, there are kool-aide drinkers out there that buy into the company's mantra that contingency applies at the start of a four sector day.

I assume micheloni was asking about the day when someone reports a bird strike or possible loss of a bit and the runway closes for 20 minutes for inspection/sweep. I don't think even 411A would be able to predict that. Then it is the Captain's decision whether to return to stand like 411A or use some of the CF.

- which company please? I wish to avoid them.