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747 Classic
I am looking for information on the 747 Classics, particularly the -200 and -300 freighter models.
Are there any web sites with general information including comments from current pilots operating the aircraft? |
Yep, there's a few of us here, just ask.
I haven't flown a freighter version yet, only -146's, -246, 267, and 238's. |
I'm not a professional pilot but I do have a great deal of information on the 747 including operating and maintenance manuals.
If there's anything I can answer, just email me. You can also see my web page at: www.747cockpit.com Regards, Steve S. |
Thanks for offer of help 18wheeler.
I saw a picture recently of a 742 with an FMC. This was a BA a/c, is this mod now common in many Classics? Where could I get a copy of a 743F flight manual ? |
763 4 me,
Are you sure that it was a FMC and not a PMS? Mutt |
Mutt, no I am not hence my querie.
I am looking at moving on to the Classic, presently on a 767-300. I am just trying to convince myself that I can do without the EADI, EHSI, FMC's etc. Any thoughts from people who have converted from glass back to analogue ? |
As long as you know your three time table, no worries!
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Sorry for taking a while to reply - Had some problems for some reason when trying to log on ... Anyway, thanks to Danny Fyne it seems to be solved.
Note that I had to change my user name a little; I added a '-', but it's still me. ;) AFAIK, no Classics have FMS, you've probably seen the PMS mentioned above. The simplist way to explain it is that it's a (very) poor mans FMS. They've got INS nav ability, and also VNAV as well, though they need a little bit more help along the way than an FMS does. Can't help with the manual, though if you're in Aus I can lend you a Northwest airlines one that you an copy. And as Olivasnooze said, the most important thing is to remember your three times table for the drop. ;) Just occasionally the PMS will fall over and so you have to go to steam-driven mode. In any case you really should back up what the automatics are doing with some mental arithmatic anyway. You'll love the plane, it's a big pussy-cat, though of course you have to keep an eye on the inertia. ------------------ Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast |
Thanks 18-Wheeler, any more comments welcome.
Would anyone care to comment on their experiences converting from a "glass" flightdeck to an "analogue" flightdeck (I know it is usually the other way around). [This message has been edited by 763 4 me (edited 16 June 2001).] |
I'm not a classic driver, but..... BA 747 classics got some sort of upgrade a while back where, a map display was installed in the centre console in front of the thrust levers, and yup, got a proper FMC too.
CCCccoooo..ugh |
763:
I know the Classic quite well and doing the reverse of your program: Going from the classic to the 767. (Man, do I miss the 747 now....) Having flow classics for 3 different companies over the last 12 years, I have yet to see an FMC. As mentioned above, probably a PMS, but aye, ya don't need it. Get used to pushing buttons to program the INS boxes. Especially the 9 way-point ones. The Litton 92s are better, but not quite up to the modern magic boxes. The classic drives like a big Caddilac, and seem slow because of the size, but it ain't. Be careful taxi'ing, lots of wingtips and wheels out there. Enjoy. ------------------ Men, this is no drill... |
You did see FMS on BA classic Jumbos. It was not PMS. I know this because I have to fix the damn thing. I am not aware of FMS on anyone else's classics. The system was under continual development and even in recent years has only started to achive some of the original targets. The FMS was partially developed on these planes.
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Just converted to the Classic from 8 years of FBW, hard work but ultimately satisfying. Apart from working out where you are all the time, 3 crew flight deck is the other big difference; 3rd pair of eyes really nice.
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Towerdog are you heading the Air Japan way ? You appear to have the same positive experience re the 747 as most everyone else, nice to hear. What is your 747 highlight then ?
Reeboot, I saw the photo in a magazine at WH Smith, Airliner World or something ? There was an article on the 742 of BA. It did look distinctly like the FMC I sit beside most days. Is that a map/weather radar in the centre forward console as well ? Citadel did you move from an Airbus or Boeing by any chance ? Interesting comment about situational awareness by somebody earlier, the EHSI map/plan modes on the 763 are VERY useful and will be missed IF I move to the Classic shortly. What did you find was the greatest difference ? Surely a buzz to fly the queen of the skies either way ? [This message has been edited by 763 4 me (edited 18 June 2001).] |
763:
No, I ain't heading the Jap way: I flew skipper on the classic for Tower Air for 4 years (And F/O for Evergreen and Kuwait Airways Classics before that) Also been to Japan and spent most of my gray hair in that program... As for the highlights? The Classic is a really nice bird. Do enjoy it while ya can. Screw the glass planes. There ain't nothing there...Just computers and politically correct profiles. ------------------ Men, this is no drill... |
763 4 me / 18 Wheeler,
While FMC’s are not common in B747’s they do exist. A combined program team of Honeywell / BAE Systems and Canard Aerospace are offering a unit called the CMA-900. This combines the Honeywell ADIRS from 737NG and 757 with the CMA-900 GPS/FMS.
So I guess that the answer is, if it looked like a FMC it probably was. Enjoy. Mutt. [This message has been edited by mutt (edited 18 June 2001).] |
"... replace the Litton 72's ..."
The magic words!!! I like it already. ;) Thanks for that, good to know. Puts life in the old 747's again. ------------------ Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast |
Excellent, thanks mutt so there is hope for me after all. I wonder if any of the 743F conversions that Boeing conduct will include the "FMC mod" ? Hope so.
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BA's -136's (RIP) & -236's were retrofitted over 10 yrs ago with pukka honeywell FMS's as fitted to 757s at the time.
Reason was to give them cruise autothrottle (PMS not fitted) but once fitted the green godess became an integral part of the operation. Later on, the ND from MD11 was fitted ahead of the thrust levers. In the end quite a sophisticated set up, and years ahead of all the mods detailed above. Makes you wonder why these extremely capable -200s are being ditched half way through their lives? Answers on a postcard....... |
PS: getting back to the topic -
I converted from 763 to 747-100/200 some years ago and, while I liked the 76, I wish I'd done it sooner. The Classic, with one exception, is by far the most rewarding and interesting commercial bird I've flown. I miss it. If you're a pilot in your bones you will love it, 'cos it's a great big, honest, reliable, trustworthy, predictable, friendly tool. As others have said, polish your three times table and make full use of the years of experience sat behind you and you'll have no problem and lots of fun/satisfaction. Queen of the skies! |
I flew the 747-400 for BA for almost ten years before getting my command on the Classic. Never flown the classic previously. found no real problem apart from the lack of a real autothrottle and a bunch of bananas on the approach!
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WOK may I ask what the one exception is then ? Overall, including the previous post, things sound positive indeed !
What is this "bananas" on approach ? |
7634me - the exception was Concorde, hardly a fair contest :)
Bananas refers to the thrust lever stagger which can be quite pronounced, esp on BAs old JT9D powered -136s. Hope your hands aren't too petite. Enjoy. |
This is an article I found on this subject. As you can see the KLM upgrade is already completed. Lufthansa and JAL are also considering doing the same. JAL will keep classics flying untill 2015.
KLM AND CANADIAN MARCONI'S CLASSIC COCKPIT UPGRADE - A Big Step Forward in Navigation for the 747-Classic MONTREAL, July 5 /CNW/ - KLM Engineering & Maintenance and Canadian Marconi Company's joint comprehensive B747 cockpit upgrade has been granted a Supplemental Type Certification (STC) by the FAA, following recent successful flight tests. This upgrade will extend the life of KLM's 13 aircraft B747-200/300 fleet well beyond the year 2010. KLM introduced the first modified aircraft (one of two freighter aircraft conversions) into revenue service on May 19, 1999. The first passenger flight with an upgraded aircraft followed soon after on May 22, 1999. Interviewed during and after the first flight, KLM Captain and senior engineering pilot, Robert Stade, reported, "no problems with the system, it operated exactly as expected and is a big step forward in navigation for the 747-Classic.'' KLM's entire 13 aircraft B747 fleet was modified as of June 25, 1999. This two-year upgrade program, described by a FAA official as "the most comprehensive avionics STC activity we have seen,'' was executed by a team made up of Canadian Marconi (the systems integrator), KLM Engineering & Maintenance, Smiths Industries and Hollingsead International. Hans Denslagen of KLM operations engineering group, observed. "We have achieved the capabilities we worked for, and we are looking forward to enjoying the benefits of the modernization during this summer season.'' The cockpit avionics upgrade is built around the installation of triple Canadian Marconi CMA-900 Flight Management Systems (FMS), which incorporate the Company's industry-leading 12-channel Global Positioning System (GPS) sensors. The three CMA-900s are fully integrated with the new inertial reference systems and provide interfaces to the autopilot/flight director, PMS, ACARS, SATCOM and ACMS. All of the control and display functions for these systems are incorporated in the Multifunction Control Display Unit (MCDU) of the FMS, allowing the old technology DCUs to be removed from the cockpit. Also, LCD digital flight and engine instruments will replace the analog instruments in a second phase of the program. The FMS equipment provides for tomorrows air traffic environment including FANS and CNS/ATM requirements. The upgraded aircraft will have capabilities, including GPS navigation and data link communications, which are more advanced than all but the most recently delivered aircraft types such as the B747-400, B777 and A-330/340. Rob Lebel, Canadian Marconi Program Manager, reports that a number of other airlines have already requested quotes for similar upgrades. "Canadian Marconi and KLM Engineering & Maintenance have shown that this is the most cost-effective upgrade path for the over 550 747-Classic aircraft still flying in revenue service.'' This STC sets a baseline for the program, which KLM Engineering & Maintenance and Canadian Marconi are now marketing in a joint effort. As well, the total solution can be tailored to meet the specific needs of other classic widebodies like the DC-10, L-1011 and A-300.'' |
What an excellent post EXRAAF, much appreciated. So one would have to conclude that there is plenty of life left in the old 747's yet.
Any more insights ? |
On the question of transitioning from one technology to another, I love an old tale of a very experienced but long since retired friend.
His interesting experience came in transitioning, at a ripe age but with lots of fascinating Types behind him, onto his first transport jet. After a number of sweaty sim rides and post-sim long faces, he bounced out of the sim after one session with a grin from ear to ear ... "mate, he failed all the electrics ... it was just like flying a real aeroplane ..". Thereafter, the conversion presented no fears. |
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Excellent photos PUFF.
So BA and KLM have both tinkered with the navigation kits of their Classic fleet. Who else has done similar, have any of the latest 742SF/743SF freighter conversions included an avionics upgrade ? |
The PR blurb that i printed above also said that Saudi Arabian Airlines was installing the kit in their B747-100/200/300/SP aircraft.
Mutt. |
An interesting article on page 10 of this weeks Flight International. "CMC secures 747 cockpit customers".
It appears Saudi, Corsair and Dragonair are quoted as customers for the Boeing 747 Classic cockpit upgrade it pioneered with KLM. The upgrade (mentioned in earlier posts) extends the life of the Classics through the addition of communications, navigation and CNS/ATM. All the aircraft will use CMC's CMA-900 FMS, which features a colour liquid crystal multifunction display and a 12-channel GPS sensor to provide GPS-based navigation and oceanic/remote area operations capability. All good news it appears for those moving from glass to analogue with reservations. |
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