A320 Pressing Two Buttons at Once
 

I work at a university and teach in an A320 simulator (Alsim). I am not typed in the airplane yet, so I have no practical experience flying it. I have many questions, but I will start with the first.

I noticed students like to press two buttons at once. E.g., turning on both batteries at once, turning both packs/bleeds on at once. Is there anything wrong with this? I did not find any documentation about this

For me, flying tubroprop equipemnt and light jet stuff, I've never seen anyone press two buttons at once.

IMHO it's never a good idea to push two buttons at the same time. One at a time gives you the chance to stop if the first one shows that you made a mistake.

Yeah, bad idea, press one, wait a moment then press another. Same goes for Boeing.

I can understand pushing both battery buttons simultaneously, but both packs? Seems like an odd technique. I don't say anything about technique as long as there's no safety risk behind it.

I'm not aware of any documentation prohibiting it; not everything can be written down though. Turn on both packs simultaneously if it suits you, but if you find yourself needing to turn off 2 IRUs, please do so sequentially, and slowly.

When one is young and inexperienced and hasn’t been bitten in the ass hard you ‘flick switches, jab buttons’ and don’t really cross check much. And when you eventually get some experience and get bitten a few times you being to ‘select switches, press buttons’ and triple check everything.

But you can’t teach experience…“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.”

Vernon Law

As a way of beating some experience into your students, maybe fail a battery or pack when they do that and make them stop and think about how they are operating?

Never push two at one, a nice orderly push on one then the other.

If I was a concert pianist I would switch on all 6 fuel pumps in 1 push. Sadly I have Trump hands and have to push 3 times. But I will look at the fuel page afterwards every time to make sure everything is functioning as intended. And I would never do that while in the air.
(never say never)

Then probably worth never doing it in the sim. I’ve seen (and heard of) many a mistake by a tired trainer doing something on the line that they’re used to doing in the sim because they have the muscle memory.

Trying to run when you're learning to walk...

They show they think it's a race. It's not a race unfortunately.

Don’t Flywithowen
 

Not sure if this link will work but:


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CktTm...Qyazk5OXYxN3Rt


This is an example of what people are learning from. Inexperienced (despite what he says!) people online rushing like this, it gets seen and copied as “best practice”.

Fast-fingered Freddy. Has caused many incidents and accidents.

When I was a TRE , training new captains ,,, I always said to them ….never rush yourself into a place you do not want to be. But I was not after Instagram likes… I was trying to operate safely.

And yet sometimes you have to rush AND have to get it 100% correct… like this team:


Edit; seems it won’t play embedded. YouTube “evacuation of Private Chris Gray Afghanistan”

Nothing wrong with pushing several buttons at once in itself.
Fuel pumps for example. However, for your ears' sake, please don't put on both packs at once.

I push all her buttons at once I've been told.

The most common 2 buttons guys like to push at once is the engine anti-ice!

Yep. That works really well if there is already ice on the inlets. Both engines stop together! 🤦‍♂️

A320 Pressing Two Buttons at Once
 

Hey there! So about pressing two buttons at once on the A320, it's actually not a big deal for some controls like batteries or packs/bleeds. The A320's design can handle these actions without any problems. However, it's always a good idea to follow the standard operating procedures (SOPs). In real-world flying, pilots usually go by the book, which means doing things one step at a time to avoid mistakes and ensure everything is done correctly and safely. While the sim might be forgiving, it's good practice to teach students to be methodical, especially if they move on to flying actual planes. Hope this helps clear things up!

True. There is also nothing wrong with landing Vref+15kts on a 4km dry/no wind runway. But you will get a remark in training.

Teaching in training is about creating good habits to good standards. Every trainer knows: give a finger, lose an arm. Before you know it, they are pushing 4 buttons at the same time. One at a time, and check the result of your action.

And if you allow them to push 4 at a time, they will try 10.
However it will stop there as most people only have 10 fingers.

Both packs start working simultaneously if their buttons already in and you switch the bleed on. No harm to ears.

There is no FCOM limitation nor internal airline SOP that I am aware of, against pushing both batteries or both anti-ice switches at once.

It was definitely taught on our maintenance course to hit one switch at a time and wait for the response. Good airmanship etc.

I'm talking about after takeoff with packs OFF.

I’m also in the one button at a time camp.

A little like jumping in your car on a cold day and immediately setting off - nothing says not to, but a little “sympathy for the machine” can’t hurt!

Engine anti ice switches deal with different engines and have no connection with each other. Wing anti ice has only one switch. But both batteries are part of the same system.

Long gone are the days of 'sim' start in The Lightning.
Gang bar up for 16 switches, followed by double button push for engine start.
But then that operation was designed for.

Civil aircraft may not have the design requirement, but certification testing normally identifies any suspect systems, which by convention (now requirement) are changed to protect them from errant human activity vice relying on the human 'not to do something'.

Even pushing one has caused serious problem. In Australia one A320 or 319 when descending to 3000ft from 7000ft passing 5000ft they were cleared for approach. Pilot stabbed EXPED instead of APP then trying to press EXPED again to cancel it (that doesn't cancel EXPED) this time he stabbed ATHR causing THR LK which he disconnected using ID button which increased thrust to climb, then he disconnected AP causing 38kt flap overspeed. Pressing any switch is see, identify and do action. Any memory Muscle or otherwise or habit should play no part in it. Incidentally both PF and PNF were check pilots.

Ahh.. The five finger stab.

With most switches on Airbus or Boeing looking the same, as a trainer, I always advised to push one at a time though it may take 1 or 2 seconds longer any mistake or error could be reversed. And of course, it is a good idea to check you are at the right place, not the ones nearby. Too many times I have seen the stab effect leading to the packs coming off, fuel pumps off, anti ice on at 25C etc or in the case of one A330 I flew which had been “Boeingised” by reversing the switch direction, lights off when cleared to depart and on passing 10k in the climb.

A lesson well learnt when flying the C130 with its complex fuel system: the FE would point at the fuel source, follow to where it was needed and then push the buttons. Never saw a mistake.

Me

Lear requires both batteries on at the same time. Also has identical switches with near identical names for completely opposite action. (Emer Press and Emer Depress)

IMVHO the long slow poke one at a time is just good airmanship (airpersonship?) on any type.

The type of pilot that stabs quickly at buttons is also the type of pilot who doesn’t check the relevant system responds as requested. Thinking of the stages of error trapping, (Avoid, trap, mitigate), the button stabber will almost certainly be operating at the lowest level, mitigate. They’ll need ECAM / EICAS to tell them there’s a problem or will notice an issue after a period of time. The long slow poke followed by checking things are as expected (eg 1st pack on after t/o, feel the air volume entering the flight deck increase, then second pack on, same again) allows the person to operate at “trap” continuously and “avoid” if the slower actions prevent a mis selection.

The crew that is operating at the higher end of error trapping is also operating at the higher level of Situational Awareness. The levels of SA are Notice, Understand, Think Ahead (NUTA). If you correlate SA to error trapping, NOTICE = MITIGATE. UNDERSTAND = TRAP. THINK AHEAD = AVOID.

The crews who slow down and make singular selections are more likely to be operating at avoid/think ahead level which reduces their workload, avoids errors and allows them to maintain good SA, a positive feedback loop. They’re the crews most likely to have a calm, unrushed sector with a positive outcome (sim and flight).

The crews that make multiple rushed selections are more likely to make mistakes, forcing them to mitigate, upping their workload, causing them to rush, make more mistakes, mitigate again etc. a negative feedback loop. This is the crew that a sim check unravels quickly or has an incident on the line.

A calm, deliberate single selection at a time is a far more desirable behaviour than quick jabbing at buttons.

All IMVHO.

LD

And on the 'bus - read the panel section on the side and then move across to the button needing the action .

"Fuel"
"Crossfeed"
"On"



@lockeddoor - it's "airperchildship" as "son" is gendered :). Though some say that "child" is ageist, I haven't gone that far yet.
/s

Technically there is probably nothing wrong with pushing or not pushing those buttons at the same time. Humanly there is a lot to discuss... it’s the basis of why your lightning had a gang bar to start (military ops, 16 manipulations vs 1 under strong time pressure), and ie the 737 only to activate lights. Years ago there was a tv show on a certain Air Force with a pilot explaining his nickname: TOBI. Turn On Battery Idiot. Had to swap aircraft on quick react because it refused to start.

As we are not out on intercepts, let’s train them to go consciously step by step so they don’t get lost when systems don’t react as we expect them to? Let’s walk.

Ah... Makes sense then. Never did it in my life (Packs off take off that is), so this didn't come to my mind 🙃

But that was that just an instructor’s ‘ism’ that they themself picked up from being an engineer on the Herc in the ‘60s?

There are no technical issues with two switches at once - they're either hardwired to their respective system or the switch positions of the whole panel are polled and sent out over a data bus.

It is, in my opinion, unprofessional. Much like some crews who seem to pride themselves on running through ECAM as quickly as possible instead of sitting on their hands for a bit, pushing the button and making sure it does what you expected is just common sense. Fuel pump / battery / anti-ice / pack... it doesn't matter. Taking just a second or two to think through what you're about to do instead of relying on instinct is the way forward.

As a very new co-pilot on A320, I was a little too enthusiastic in my first non-normal in the FFS. "GEN 1... OFF THEN ON". Reached up and jabbed the button. A lot of relays and contactors clunking, followed by a silence broken only by the trainer wetting himself with laughter taught me a valuable lesson.

You can use the BAT switches for an interesting lesson in itself. My students would hit one, then observe that one switch was dark while the other had a message lit up. This of course led them to think that they needed to then push the dark switch, which switched that particular battery OFF again. It would lead to a quick recap of the dark cockpit concept (and the 'read the instructions' bit... the lit up message clearly states 'OFF').

We use a touchscreen based procedure trainer that only accepts one input at a time anyway at the touchscreens are not multi-touch :cool:

Modern systems are certainly not flawless and the old adage of ‘undo what you did last’ certainly still applies.
You can generate all sorts of transient gremlins in an electrical system when mashing buttons.
In pneumatic, fuel and hydraulic systems you can have valves that move slow or are briefly stuck while flow starts or pressure builds.
Theres no purpose in trying to turn everything on in 0.3 seconds.