Question for the engine guys
What causes that low frequency sound (~0:45 into the video) as the engines start? Seems like it correlates with fuel introduction from the puff of smoke, but then it disappears. Only ever noticed it on the 777 |
I believe it to be the ‘light off’ or the noise of the flame front in the combustion chamber.
Some airframes more pronounced then on others. |
It also seems to be more prevalent on the very high bypass engines, like the Pratt's on the 32X neos. I wonder if it's not related to the higher pressure combustion chambers on the newer more efficient engine designs?
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I remember the distinctive sound of the light off on L1011’s....it was really like a whooshing sound.
Also on the 738-300’s I used to fly. Im sure it’s related to particular features of an engine design. Maybe atmospheric conditions are a factor also. |
Interstate bleed valves and / or variable IGV modulating to control rate of engine acceleration.
Ttfn |
It's combustor growl, or instability of the flame in the combustor producing pressure waves in the acoustic range.
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‘Light-off’. Where did that term ever come from; is it an American term for light-up?
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Originally Posted by Dave Therhino
(Post 10856164)
It's combustor growl, or instability of the flame in the combustor producing pressure waves in the acoustic range.
Most high bypass engines have some level of combustor growl during start - although the -115B is quite pronounced and the CFM on the 737NG is rather pronounced. There have been cases where the acoustic rumble was so strong that it could case damage - forcing a redesign to reduce the instability and resultant rumble. Back when we were doing initial engine runs on the GE90-94B (~1995), engine start was really interesting to listen to. The GE90 has a 'dual annular combustor' (DAC) and during start they'd switch between the two rings of combustors - the resultant frequency change actually sounded like a car shifting gears... |
Thanks guys. Now for my second question. What exactly is an unstable flame?
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10856327)
Thanks guys. Now for my second question. What exactly is an unstable flame?
Getting the latest low emission combusters to light is surprisingly difficult. We spent a bunch of time working on improving the light off characteristics of the GEnx - both for 'normal' ground starts and in-flight starting. |
Do an internet search on "turbine engine combustor instability" and you will see pages ranging from layman's simple explanations to PhD expert presentations with animations.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10856327)
Thanks guys. Now for my second question. What exactly is an unstable flame?
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Originally Posted by H Peacock
(Post 10856262)
‘Light-off’. Where did that term ever come from; is it an American term for light-up?
:E |
Unstable combustion.
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Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10856331)
Have you ever used a propane torch? When you light a propane torch (or something similar) - if you have the gas turned up a little to high, it will light but won't be stable. If it's too high the flame will blow out again, but if it's just a bit high the flame will remain but move around and not attach to the nozzle base, and will make a bit of a popping sound as it moves around. You fix it by turning down the gas a bit to allow the flame to attach to the nozzle, after which you can turn the gas back up to get a nice, strong flame to do whatever you want to do with the torch.
Getting the latest low emission combusters to light is surprisingly difficult. We spent a bunch of time working on improving the light off characteristics of the GEnx - both for 'normal' ground starts and in-flight starting. It's amazing how different the knowledge and skillset is between designing, and operating airplanes. |
Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10856431)
As usual, you've prompted another question- why are the latest combusters difficult to light off (or light up)? Or is that something I'll find out about when I look up "turbine engine combustor instability"? Thanks Dave Therhino!
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Well if there’s something about an engine that you aren’t sure of, then I certainly don’t need to know it. Thanks as always for the insight.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10856431)
why are the latest combusters difficult to light off (or light up)? .
Another major factor is trying to balance what is called igniter immersion to be able to achieve light off in cold-soak starting conditions yet also to not burn up the igniter tip when operating at high power. Testing is performed to determine the positioning of the igniter tip relative to the spray pattern at lightup to just be able to ignite the edge of the spray pattern. If you just stick the igniter in farther to achieve easier light off, the igniter life may be measured in dozens of flight hours rather than hundreds or a few thousands of hours. Regarding the term "light off," I have always worked in the Boeing Seattle Area world and did a lot of engine relight related work, and that is the term I always heard since the 1980s. It was probably a Boeing-ism. The Rolls-Royce engineers used different terms, but we tolerated each others' terminology differences (just kidding - I remember a bunch of great engineers from back in the 1980s from RR - unlike the the pilots, they were mostly named Ian rather than Nigel ;-). They said light-up and we said light-off. They said auto-relight (which eventually became standard) and we said autoignition, etc.) |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10856463)
TThe Dual Annular Combustor design in the GE90 was driven by emissions requirements, and the GEnx uses a very elaborate staged fuel nozzle setup that mimics the low emissions of a DAC without the drawbacks of an actual DAC.
Two sets of small torches instead of single larger ones, which may be where the lower emissions come from? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_269050769 |
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
(Post 10856939)
Would DAC mean the dual concentric rings of (for want of a better word) nozzles or flameholders shown in this X-Section? Which seems to create an - interesting - pattern of pressures inside the chamber.
Two sets of small torches instead of single larger ones, which may be where the lower emissions come from? https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_269050769 The DAC was an option on the CFM56-7/737NG - it reduced certain emissions but it resulted in a significant increase in fuel burn so very few were actually delivered. |
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