A320 Engine Fire at VR
I'm wondering about this scenario in an A320...
Engine fire at Vr. 400 feet you run the ECAM action and you secure the engine. But... let's assume the engine fire does not go out. The light stays illuminated. What do you? Do you do a 180 degree turn and land back on the departure runway? Or do you continue normally... push to level off and clean up, and complete the Ecam... I recall an instructor said you have roughly 7 minutes to live with an uncontained fire. |
Originally Posted by slate100
(Post 10527033)
I'm wondering about this scenario in an A320...
Engine fire at Vr. 400 feet you run the ECAM action and you secure the engine. But... let's assume the engine fire does not go out. The light stays illuminated. What do you? Do you do a 180 degree turn and land back on the departure runway? Or do you continue normally... push to level off and clean up, and complete the Ecam... I recall an instructor said you have roughly 7 minutes to live with an uncontained fire. Of course you fly the aircraft first, You are then dependent on the ability to defeat the fire. The odds (borne out historically) are definitely with you once airborne.Engine fires either stay with the engine a short time (until fuel cutoff) or end up behind you in a slip stream. Either way over a longer time, you always have the ability to confirm with eyeballs what is buining outside the engine and to take additional considered actions to get on the ground quickly |
400 feet you run the ECAM action and you secure the engine. But... let's assume the engine fire does not go out. The light stays illuminated. |
'Do an offset' - it sounds so simple, but unless it's something you have practiced and briefed for I would suggest you are probably creating more problems than you are resolving. We used to throw it in unexpectedly during crew training and more often than not it turned into a shambles.
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The idea of briefing the unexpected has always seemed a bit useless to me.
In this scenario you are on fire in the air, and the actions the crew take will not be briefed and that is ok. |
PF sets up for an immediate return by joining the downwind. PM fights the fire. What's the complication?
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A 180' turn to land back on the departure runway could have you going head to head with another aircraft followed by a downwind landing. A MAYDAY call with a short circuit keeping the speed up as long as possible would probably be a better option.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
(Post 10527479)
PF sets up for an immediate return by joining the downwind. PM fights the fire. What's the complication?
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i've flown for 3 jet operators and not one of them has advocated for briefing for/or performing a reversal turn and landing downwind.
still, if everybody walks away you can call it a win i guess. |
Originally Posted by Small cog
(Post 10527591)
Any SFI teaching as SOP is not fit to be in position. |
i've flown for 3 jet operators and not one of them has advocated for briefing for/or performing a reversal turn and landing downwind. |
A bit off topic but...Night take off from LGW in a BAe146, me PF. During gear retraction: “AVIONICS SMOKE” Master Warning. Emergency call from Cabin: “forward galley oven on fire, ceiling above melting”. Levelled off at 1000’ AGL and flew a left hand visual circuit to land back on 26L, vacated at FR and stopped. Fire extinguished, so no evacuation. Airbourne time 5 minutes, I wouldn’t have wanted to be up there any longer. (Avionics Smoke warning due to galley smoke being drawn into the avionics bay). |
Worth a read - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/3-20...-30-march-1998
HS748 (precursor to the ATP) which had an uncontrolled engine fire at V1/Vr and the commander feared fire destroying the wing spar. Dissimilar to the A320 in that it would slower at Vr but an interesting thought process. Quick thinking by the commander on this one - result, 0 / 4 crew and 0 / 40 minor injuries. |
Many people never flew a reversal in their flying career (yup, done it, out of around 100ft without an engine, quite foolish). To be able to pull it off with the added stress of a fire one cannot fight any more is a pretty remote possibility. Better do a normal visual circuit, which has been done quite a lot during every pilots training, enabling them to fall back on that very basic thing. And an engine fire does not mean that the wing is on fire, just that there is a very high temperature within the engine nacelle, since we usually cannot see the engine out of the flightdeck we cannot check visually, therefore we would have to rely on the cabin crew that at that stage is still strapped in, and where communication takes considerable time to begin with.
So, mayday, visual circuit, stop on the runway and check out if there is any real fire to begin with, just evacuating with a faulty indication would be quite stupid, after all the captain in that case might be liable for any injuries in certain jurisdictions. |
Many people never flew a reversal in their flying career |
Take a step back. For an engine fire to not go out requires both the high pressure and low pressure fuel valves to fail open. Hydraulic fluid will burn, but not well. So either you’re really unlucky (>10^9 probability) or this is your sole remaining engine (cowl door loss incident from a few years ago?). The engine is nicely separated from the wing on the end of a pylon. Let it burn. Fly the aircraft. Should you screw up the turn back that you’ve never practiced you’re going to at least double your time in the air on the subsequent go around. What about traffic following you? Landing traffic? ATC? Tailwind? No ILS when you might really want one. IMHO only... Keep flaps one. If you’re used to it, enter a visual circuit. Otherwise climb to 2000 or 3000 ft and fly a sensible approach. You’ll still be on the ground within 10 minutes. |
180 turn for a downwind landing, on something that you have probably never practiced and even if you have maybe once under no real stress in the sim? I have messed around in the sim and it wasn’t any quicker than a quick return via normal circuit pattern. Plus Flying the pattern is reverting to normal ingrained skills so you are both on the same page and know what’s going on. Just my 2 cents worth.... |
For an engine fire I would do a circuit and land. An uncontained cabin fire might be a different story. |
Originally Posted by waren9
(Post 10527624)
i've flown for 3 jet operators and not one of them has advocated for briefing for/or performing a reversal turn and landing downwind.
still, if everybody walks away you can call it a win i guess. My current airline divides abnormals into "no time" and "time". A time problem could be an engine failure. There aren't too may problems that would be classified as "no time problem" but a smoke/fire event is certainly one of them. We are in the business of managing risks. Can we manage and plan for all risks? Of course no. But why would we not discuss the course of action that will be taken for the worst problem of all problems? Almost anything else can be managed at a slower pace but not a fire.I think it's a good idea to be ready for it. |
Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret
(Post 10528480)
Take a step back. For an engine fire to not go out requires both the high pressure and low pressure fuel valves to fail open. Hydraulic fluid will burn, but not well. So either you’re really unlucky (>10^9 probability) or this is your sole remaining engine (cowl door loss incident from a few years ago?). The engine is nicely separated from the wing on the end of a pylon. Let it burn. Fly the aircraft. Should you screw up the turn back that you’ve never practiced you’re going to at least double your time in the air on the subsequent go around. What about traffic following you? Landing traffic? ATC? Tailwind? No ILS when you might really want one. IMHO only... Keep flaps one. If you’re used to it, enter a visual circuit. Otherwise climb to 2000 or 3000 ft and fly a sensible approach. You’ll still be on the ground within 10 minutes. Light aircraft, helicopters, etc. yes, you want to get it on the ground ASAP, off-airport if necessary. In a modern jet twin/triple/quad which may also be a “heavy”, trying to fly a turn back is difficult when it goes well and probably won’t save much time but will likely set you up for an unstabilised approach to a downwind landing. If you’ve lost an engine, have a fire warning and are initially flying around at V2 (with the bank limitations that entails), what’s a turn back pattern going to look like? Much easier in an extreme workload situation to fly a wide pattern to an instrument runway, which is a well-practiced manoeuvre and much more likely to end in success. There is also the bonus that everyone on the flight deck will be in a familiar situation and able to monitor/help effectively. As FF above, I regard an engine fire warning as something that requires action but not to the point of compromising safety in other ways. What does a fire indication tell you? All it means is that, false warnings aside, the temperature in the nacelle has reached a certain point (175 to 300C in some installations, depending on which area) and if the warning is still active, that the temperature is still above that level. It doesn’t necessarily follow that you are burning brightly and dropping bits of wing and engine over the countryside... |
Originally Posted by FullWings
(Post 10529099)
As FF above, I regard an engine fire warning as something that requires action but not to the point of compromising safety in other ways. What does a fire indication tell you? All it means is that, false warnings aside, the temperature in the nacelle has reached a certain point (175 to 300C in some installations, depending on which area) and if the warning is still active, that the temperature is still above that level. It doesn’t necessarily follow that you are burning brightly and dropping bits of wing and engine over the countryside...
Don't panic, do the checklist. I think this is sound advice. |
Tdracer
It probably bears noting here that a significant percentage of fire warnings are either false alarms, or simply nacelle overheats related to things like burst ducts |
Does any data exist on the effectiveness of the fire extinguishing systems? It is such a rare event that maybe there isn't but it would be interesting to know how many fire warnings persist after both bottles have been fired.
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Originally Posted by Max Angle
(Post 10529553)
Does any data exist on the effectiveness of the fire extinguishing systems? It is such a rare event that maybe there isn't but it would be interesting to know how many fire warnings persist after both bottles have been fired.
and it now appears we have morphed into any aircraft fire source, rather than just an engine, so be sure and make that is clear in a response The biggest problem we have seen in the data are the false warnings followed by using up the extinguishing system against the much rarer but far more serious persistent fire. The procedures developed up to now, recognize this and one should think hard before abandoning them |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10529418)
Tdracer
While there is no doubt that Checklist should always be done and are done but perhaps you could shed some light when the checklist goes silent after the second agent discharge and the fire is not out. Although not many incidents but why would it happen and how serious would be the implications. Thanks Max Angle - some sort of Halon compound is the most common extinguishing agent for aircraft engines. However Halon is considered environmentally nasty and new stuff hasn't been made for many years. Hence some new installations use more environmentally friendly agents - the KC-46 uses something that's basically baking soda. I've never heard any concerns regarding the effectiveness of Halon - only concerns about it's environmental impact - the stuff seems to work quite well. The newer stuff I'm not so sure about - although my coworkers responsible for fire safety didn't seem overly concerned. |
A320 Engine Fire at VR
At a previous airline, the Airbus FMGS secondary flight plan was simply a “copy of the Active”. Not a good plan. It leaves one with a really significant programming deficit should you need to fly an immediate return. What should be done with the secondary is, after the last point on your SID, use a lateral key to enable the “New Destination” prompt. Insert CYVR. Insert the ATIS landing runway, and on the SEC PERF page, insert the weather and the MDA or DH. And on the G/A page, set the MAP altitude as the acceleration altitude. Now a couple more useful keystrokes. A lateral off the new destination (CYVR) will give you the ALTNT prompt, where you can put in KSEA. Why not? So established, the secondary flt plan is completely set for the return approach, the missed approach, and a nearby alternate. All speeds, fuel predictions and weights will be accurate as soon as it is activated. Setting this out, on the written page, it sounds like a lot of work – but with just a bit of practice, these significant FMGC inputs rob one of only a couple quick gulps of coffee. Now to the “Immediate Return Briefing” that you simply append to your standard Take-Off Emergency Briefing: “If it is imperative to get the aircraft on the ground right away, same ECAM drill; we’ll clean up to 1+F, climb at S Spd to ___’ ASL,activate the SEC, activate the APPR. and take vectors/self position ourselves for a downwind L/R for an ILS/RNAV/etc. Rwy __. We are over the Ldg Wt. however, for Rwy__, the APP. climb gradients and field length are/are not limiting. We will have to run the Over Wt. Ldg Checklist. Questions, concerns, comments?” And the procedure: IMMEDIATE RETURN Engine Failure and/or Fire - as per V1 fail to “Stop ECAM” then: - With the initial ECAM items complete, and at or above the acceleration altitude – press ALT. - Accelerate and clean up. - At “F” speed, “Flap 1” - Select “S” speed - At “S” speed, ALT pull set MCT
- Call for the Status page, and ask for a review of the landing and stopping items. - Call for the “Overweight Landing QRH”. - Abeam the threshold start timing, or instruct ATC for an appropriate gate. - At 45 seconds (for 1500’) call “Flap 2, A/P off, F/D off, set Runway Track”. - When flap 2, “Gear down”. - When gear down, “Flap 3 Ldg Checklist”. (all engine, “Flap Full Ldg Checklist”)
- After stopping prepare for Evac, as per RTO. Documents state (and having run performance examples confirm) that if you took off from the runway, you will be able to land on it – barring a deterioration of the RSC (runway surface condition) so long as you have at least one reverser operative. The serious and practical point is, that with just half a minute of preflight attention and programming, you are completely set up for a quick return and can devote your time to the situation and the landing – not hopelessly trying to do all that plus correctly enter all the keyboard work while you're on fire and everybody is talking at you. |
Quick return
Most pilots are not trained enough to fly back immediately. The sim tarining is not a training but just a checkTraining means doing and doing until you can do the lesson. You can't just learn to do that from booksThis is just the beginning. Once you have learned it, you have to stay in practice and not just the check every 5 months. That's not enoughThe quick return is easy to do once you're trained. If you are not trained, but only checked every 5 months, after a few years you will no longer be able to do it. Checks are a must - training as well.
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