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I’ve been reading your answers and after careful consideration I have reached a conclusion: I’m Red 1! I never knew landing a 737 could be this dangerous or difficult! Running out of ailerons at 20 kts xwind? Are you sure we are flying the same 737? When I started on the NG some 20 years ago, one of the first tables I looked at was what it took to put a wing, engine pod or flap track fairing on the ground. You really need to mess up the landing in a severe way to do this. Never looked at it again It does happen out there, but very seldom. As for Real Life flying: A week or two before xmas 2018 I did a flight to LHR. Wind from the south with gusts at 40 kts. The type of weather that make you miss runway 23. We landed and so did everybody else. You two would probably be on your way to MAN along with EK. Flying and reading the manual at the same time is very difficult, I imagine. |
No, I'm Red 1....and so is my wife.
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan
(Post 10384998)
No, I'm Red 1....and so is my wife.
Correction to the date for the LHR flight. It was Oct 12, not in December. Afternoon landing. |
What ever happened to plane (yes delibrate) old aviator navigate communicate? I’ve flown a few different types and at the end of it all it’s no different to when I learnt crosswind in a C150! Be it AB or B, kick it straight at the right point and ooohhh you’ve landed. Ok fair enough you can completely fook it up and not use rudder but it ain’t pretty. Why do we have to try to reinvent flying? |
Originally Posted by ImbracableCrunk
(Post 10380572)
This sounds like my time at KAL. After a captain would smash the plane on the ground, he would have me print up a landing report.
"Ah. I flared 3.2 degrees. I should have flared 3.3 degrees!" No, you should have been looking out the window. |
Global Aviator, et al, Although it might be difficult, try to remember how you learnt to fly, how you gained knowledge and ability to land in a crosswind. Being more of an art than most flying, you can watch, a but only really learn from doing. Each aircraft type is different; coordination yaw and roll, how much of each, when, how quickly. Every wind, runway, aircraft configuration, speed, create different situations; its very rare to encounter the same ‘crosswind’ twice. The challenge is how to accumulate the necessary experience; even when something is ‘right’ we might not be satisfied, or how do we know what is right until we have done ‘it right’ before. “Things go wrong so that we will know when they go right”, but in today’s industry we may not be allowed to be wrong, not even a little bit. So how might we learn, gain tacit knowledge, experience, ‘you can’t do that until you have done it before’, or until promoted. Simulator they cry, but crosswind simulation is one of the most difficult to represent, particularly the inadequacy of side-force. Instead of us oldies reminiscing how easy ‘it’ is based in many years of experience in vastly different situations and aircraft, consider how relevant ‘experience’ might be transferred to less experienced pilots. Gaining experience in modern aviation might be a greater problem than finessing a crosswind landing. |
Originally Posted by PEI_3721
(Post 10386087)
Global Aviator, et al, Although it might be difficult, try to remember how you learnt to fly, how you gained knowledge and ability to land in a crosswind. Being more of an art than most flying, you can watch, a but only really learn from doing. Each aircraft type is different; coordination yaw and roll, how much of each, when, how quickly. Every wind, runway, aircraft configuration, speed, create different situations; its very rare to encounter the same ‘crosswind’ twice. The challenge is how to accumulate the necessary experience; even when something is ‘right’ we might not be satisfied, or how do we know what is right until we have done ‘it right’ before. “Things go wrong so that we will know when they go right”, but in today’s industry we may not be allowed to be wrong, not even a little bit. So how might we learn, gain tacit knowledge, experience, ‘you can’t do that until you have done it before’, or until promoted. Simulator they cry, but crosswind simulation is one of the most difficult to represent, particularly the inadequacy of side-force. Instead of us oldies reminiscing how easy ‘it’ is based in many years of experience in vastly different situations and aircraft, consider how relevant ‘experience’ might be transferred to less experienced pilots. Gaining experience in modern aviation might be a greater problem than finessing a crosswind landing. Thanks for that. In fact I think this thread is pretty interesting to read for newer pilots like I am. |
I think there's a bit of overthinking going on here. You either kick it straight at the last second (decrab in the flare, bank if needed) or fly a forward slip (Boeing's preferred technique-in mine, at least). You certainly don't do what the OP is doing. I like doing max crosswinds in the sim; they are close enough to the real aeroplane to not matter, and you can certainly get the hang of the technique, whichever one you use, so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult.
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10386392)
I think there's a bit of overthinking going on here. You either kick it straight at the last second (decrab in the flare, bank if needed) or fly a forward slip (Boeing's preferred technique-in mine, at least). You certainly don't do what the OP is doing. I like doing max crosswinds in the sim; they are close enough to the real aeroplane to not matter, and you can certainly get the hang of the technique, whichever one you use, so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult.
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Originally Posted by Jimtx
Isn't the decrab in the flare a forward slip if done correctly, applying opposite aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to yaw?
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It's the same thing, just a matter of how long before touchdown.
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Bloggs, … you appear to have missed a previous point. No matter how capable we are, or think we are, we are only as good as the next landing. How might we, individually, compare the simulator with the real world. By experiencing a range of spot points, but not every situation, by relating to theory, but what is the theory of your aircraft, or do we just assume. Rating the difficulty of a flight manoeuvre (‘it not that difficult’) is an individual, subjective assessment, there is no universal scale, thus no easy means of exchanging hard-earned knowledge with those not so experienced. The problem is not so much in performing the manoeuvre, it’s understanding why it did not turn out as expected and explaining how it might be bettered; and then how to judge those conditions (within the max demo limit) when the manoeuvre should not be attempted. Operational crosswind limits might be proportional to the number of stripes on the sleeve, but that does not translate to ability; neither the aircraft or runway width recognise stripes or experience. June737, further info re your question #1. https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/c...agazine_20.pdf Page 22 -> Although the article states “… correct lateral flight path” means localizer centered or nose of the aircraft trajectory aligned with the runway axis, thus ensuring the pilot’s eye is aligned with the runway axis”; this should not be taken to extremes, there is a point of visual transition as explained in earlier posts, so that the difference between LOC and visual is not a concern. Also, remember that the autoland references LOC and minimises drift, although perhaps not allowed in high crosswinds. And a previous view of crosswind landing certification; https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/c...agazine_15.pdf Page 8 -> |
PEI, Yes, there is overthinking going on here. Get in the sim and practice them. The visual bit. Simple! Then you get better at them and eventually can handle the limit (whatever that is). The concept isn't that difficult! :rolleyes:
And stop quoting me out of context. I said: so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult. |
"Running out of ailerons at 20 kts xwind? Are you sure we are flying the same 737?"
Excerpted from my admittedly 10 year old 737 NG Flight Crew Training Manual: "Sideslip only (zero crab) landings are not recommended with crosswind components in excess of 17 knots at flaps 15, 20 knots at flaps 30, or 23 knots at flaps 40. This recommendation ensures adequate ground clearance and is based on maintaining adequate control margin." "That would take a VERY accurate piece of co-ordination." Boeing advertises three crosswind landing techniques: decrab-during-flare, touchdown in crab, and sideslip. The decrab-during-flare technique does not involve lowering a wing; the intention is to decrab just before touchdown while maintaining wings level. I'm not a four engine guy, but my understanding is that this is not a new idea to the DC-8 crowd. It was required training at my operator before we could utilize the full crosswind capability of the 737 MAX, because of the reduced wingtip clearance. A particularly useful reference for the topic of crosswind landings is here: https://reports.nlr.nl/xmlui/bitstre...=1&isAllowed=y |
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