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-   -   How much value do you give Braking Action reports? (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/617138-how-much-value-do-you-give-braking-action-reports.html)

ROW_BOT 18th Feb 2019 13:29

Unfortunately some companies put more weight on 'OTP' than on safety.
You know it as well as I do. It's aviations biggest dirty secret.

alf5071h 18th Feb 2019 17:56

RW,
Re “A pilot who has just landed on a waterlogged runway has a better understanding of the runway condition than a pilot waiting to take-off.
The assumption in this is how his perception relates to yours. How can you relate landing performance with pre takeoff assessment; wt, aircraft type, brake and reverser selection and use, tyre condition.

… crosswind … has the margin of error in wind reporting been considered; how close is this to being just within a limit. Similarly with braking action; would the safety margin or decision change with a slightly lower braking action.

The world is not perfect, not without risk, never ‘ideal’; safety is about how these imperfections are managed, the use and application of knowledge.

Management’s view of OTD has no value in your defence.

nicolai 18th Feb 2019 18:15

If the airline wants you to provide evidence that braking action was insufficient, will the PIREP from the preceding aircraft do? In that case, PIREPs serve a valuable purpose: arse protection.

ROW_BOT 19th Feb 2019 03:49


Originally Posted by alf5071h (Post 10393954)
RW,
Re “A pilot who has just landed on a waterlogged runway has a better understanding of the runway condition than a pilot waiting to take-off.
The assumption in this is how his perception relates to yours. How can you relate landing performance with pre takeoff assessment; wt, aircraft type, brake and reverser selection and use, tyre condition.



So you're saying that if a PIREP from a pilot at a reputable airline tells you the braking action is POOR, and there is no other source of information on braking action - it is worthless. Really? I'd like to read the accident report if you slid off the RWY after ignoring it.


… crosswind … has the margin of error in wind reporting been considered; how close is this to being just within a limit. Similarly with braking action; would the safety margin or decision change with a slightly lower braking action.
What is this 'margin of error'. It's not written in my OMA. I've never heard of it. Can you quantify it?
Or should I just assume.....oh, wait.....


The world is not perfect, not without risk, never ‘ideal’; safety is about how these imperfections are managed, the use and application of knowledge.
Yes I've gotten pretty good at it after all these years. Never scratched the paintwork. But now you're backing away from that fundamentalist refusal to even consider a braking action PIREP.


Management’s view of OTD has no value in your defence.
Of course not - so you work with that in mind.

If the airline wants you to provide evidence that braking action was insufficient, will the PIREP from the preceding aircraft do? In that case, PIREPs serve a valuable purpose: arse protection.
Exactly.
Cover your ass. Keep your job. Stay alive.
All three are possible. We do it every day.

By the way - there are numerous references in our OMA to getting and making PIREPS.





alf5071h 20th Feb 2019 06:48

The views in #27 increase concerns about the issues raised in #20. Do problems of seeking alternative views stem from individuals or management (SOPs, Ops Man), where the latter can influence the individual.

TA #22, makes an important point about ‘legal’ and safe. I prefer not to associate ‘legal’ with operating requirements; these may not have the same status as national law. Furthermore, there can be rare situations where operating manuals do not provide guidance or have a procedure for the required level of safety, thus it is necessary to deviate from the norm, i.e. not ‘legal’, but appropriate safety action is taken - judgement - a decision.

Re PIREPS; are the recent recommendations for TALPA widely known (only use to downgrade BA).
We should avoid using PIREPS because of their subjectivity, but in the absence of adequate technical alternatives are they being used to replace the need to evaluate the situation.

Has the TALPA information been published / adopted by regulators; are operators aware of these changes.
Is management safety action increasingly dependent on mandates opposed to recommendations, i.e. if not published then no action; thus shifting the responsibility for assessment of subjective or variable information to the flight crew.

For professional reading / info, re winds and braking action.
https://reports.nlr.nl/xmlui/ Search separately for ‘crosswind’ and ‘overrun’.

ROW_BOT 20th Feb 2019 14:42

Good grief, what a convoluted load of waffle.


I prefer not to associate ‘legal’ with operating requirements; these may not have the same status as national law.
Any Air Law student can tell you that the Operations Manual is a Legal Document, approved by the relevant authorities when issuing an AOC. Going against the OMA, (except in an emergency) means you're breaking the Law.

The rest of your post is unintelligible to an english speaker. Sorry.

bumpy737 20th Feb 2019 18:47

I also apply regional rules - medium in Europe is far better than medium in Russia ;))

oceancrosser 20th Feb 2019 22:01


Originally Posted by Skyjob (Post 10359071)
RAAS (runway awareness advisory system) is already available and operational in some airlines...

And how does RAAS relate to Braking Action?


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