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-   -   Speaker off while headsets on. (https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/609960-speaker-off-while-headsets.html)

Journey Man 16th Jun 2018 15:13

What happens when you don your mask? In my aircraft volume needs to be set at a reasonable level and then the speaker/headset button used to silence the speaker. When mask mic is selected, the speaker is automatically activated. Some canít understand this and use the audio setup correctly, leaving the speaker on but turned down all the way.

STBYRUD 16th Jun 2018 15:24

Mask and speakers on is the nastiest combination... I brief that the headset is to be put back on over the mask, and the intercom on only when something needs to be communicated. Must have lost a fair percentage of my hearing just from sim sessions with hot intercoms, masks on and the speakers on as well...

In normal ops - either use the headset or the speaker, not both together - especially when the intercom is hot.

pineteam 16th Jun 2018 16:43

On the A 320 Family, the loudspeaker volume drops automatically to a lower setting when you put intercom on. Another sign that it's not design to have both the speakers and headsets active at the same time.

STBYRUD 16th Jun 2018 16:48

Same on the Boeings - my thoughts exactly.

Citation2 16th Jun 2018 17:03

1)Volume is down , headset ON
2) While taking the headset OFF , ECAM pops up: Y HYD LO LEVEL
3) Simultaneously the purser wants to enter the cockpit and the buzzer sounds
4) you prioritze your tasks and fails to readjust the volume
5) You approach the FIR where you are supposed to be handed over to the next ATC.
6) For 5 minutes or more , ATC is calling you on guard.
7) Up to your imagination.

Lesson learnt : you relied on one automatism that was inhibited (cognitive function ) by a high level alert . Is your working memory so reliable ?

Try this in the sim: During rotation, distract the PF by anything like call out anything stupid "Look at EGT !! " whatever you like. PM does not call "Positive Climb" PF does not call "Gear UP" . Gear is left down for a quite a long time until the crew realizes . Some didn't until the checklist ! hopefully there is an after take off checklist but there is no "After headset OFF " checklist

PENKO 16th Jun 2018 17:08

Amazing how emotive a subject this is.
Flew with an FO this week who had his very own handsignal for 'captain could you please lower the volume of your speaker', but then a lot less polite. It was more a flick than a gesture.
Oh well..

pineteam 16th Jun 2018 17:18

I will say it again. Encore une fois: I don't know where you guys are flying but in Asia and most specifically in China, there is always someone talking on the radio. So an awkward silence of more than 1 minute and you know something is not right as it's too quiet to be true.
Then it's loudspeaker on first and only then we remove the headset not the opposite way around. Same as when you set the flaps you always check the speed before not the other way around. It's a question of discipline. At least I expect that if I'm doing that mistake that my colleague won't. So very unlikely to happen as it's done like this on every single flight.
And last but not least, I would rather taking the risk of losing communication for a couple of minutes than flying all the time with strong interference and most probably ending up with altitude burst as you can't clearly understand the radio when both the loudspeaker and headset are tuned on at the same time. A 320 drivers flying with ANR headsets will acknowledge that. if it was not making this annoying interference I would keep the loudspeaker on for more redundancy but it's jut too unbearable that echo. Lol
The scenario you present, not saying it's impossible but I think I have more chance to win the lottery than that to happen. 3 unlikely events to happen at the very same time. What are the odds? Nom de dieu! xD

PENKO 16th Jun 2018 17:29

Pineteam, please cut the drama. It's a very simple discussion.
I have never ever encountered this interference you write about, and I have used just about every ANR headset currently on the market. I guess not everyone is susceptible. On top of that, it's very rarely the guys with an ANR headset who complain about the speaker volume. At the beginning of this topic I hinted that some individuals might be more susceptible to this interference than others, other than that there is no explanation why for some it seems to be a cardinal sin to keep the volume open whilst others hardly notice.

pineteam 16th Jun 2018 17:43

Penko, in the 4 years I'm flying on Airbus. Never had encountered one guy who would not ask me to set my loudspeaker to minimum when I forgot it open. So I guess the majority of us is sensitive to that interference and we all use the same ANR headset. If you can fly comfortably with headset and speaker on, good for you bro. But the fact is, it's not designed to be used together for all the reasons mentioned above. Unless you can prove me wrong. As far as I know all the bus drivers in my company do exactly same as I do. And in more than 20 years, no problem in this matter.

Edit: On my first post I was talking about some skippers asking me to keep both at the same time. It was actually one clown who resigned since and it was back in the days we were using crappy non ANR headset. The guys was nervous as hell and doing radio check all the time. xD


Originally Posted by PENKO (Post 10174513)
I have never ever encountered this interference you write about, and I have used just about every ANR headset currently on the market.


Maybe because your FOs are always keeping their onside loudspeaker to a low level as a kind gesture to you; Thus the impression of no interference. When I keep my onside loudspeaker active, I don't notice any interference but I guaranty you that my Fo will notice it immediately and ask me nicely to turn it down.
:}

Uplinker 17th Jun 2018 11:53

It must be the other pilot’s speaker that causes this effect. The difference in time delay between your headset earphones and your onside speaker is presumably too short to bother you, hence we often don’t notice if we have left our own speaker on. But the time delay from the opposite speaker is perhaps long enough to cause noticeable audio effects to the other pilot, depending I guess, on a combination of headset type and relative volume levels.

Note, I am talking Airbus FBW here. Relatively wide cockpit with the speakers next to the sidewalls, so furthest away from the other pilot. Other types, such as 737, have different speaker locations.

(Delayed audio added to the original, produces all sorts of effects, ranging from increased ambience, to echoes, to frequency cancellation, (e.g. comb filtering), depending on the duration of the time delay. Indeed, this is the method by which some electric guitar and recording studio effects are produced).

Escape Path 18th Jun 2018 01:02

I seriously don't get what the fuss is all about. I've been flying the Airbus for a couple of years now, always with an ANR headset and almost never I've had any annoyance with the speaker. I leave it on at 12 or 1 o' clock position as the FCOM says; as others have pointed out, the volume from the speaker automatically reduces quite significantly if any intercom sw is open, so that's one condition gone straight away, unless you have the volume on the audio panel and the speaker way up (BTW, on the Airbus FBW at least, the volume control on the audio panel has more range, i.e. goes louder, than you have with the speaker volume knob). I've had a few skippers who ask me to turn the speaker down a bit, but all of them fly with crappy headsets anyway... Other than that, it's been a non-issue 95% of the time. Like I said, unless you have the volume knobs ridiculously up...

How about this though. Cruise phase, headsets off, both speakers set to a higher than normal volume (say 3 o'clock or more), both VHF1 volumes set higher than normal too (about same position, 3 o'clock), ATC calls and you obviously reply with the hand mic. Now, there's annoying for ya... Well, not you actually, but everyone else on the frequency, including ATC.

pineteam 18th Jun 2018 04:39

The point is that we have to acknowledge that we all have different aircraft and headset and it's all about common sense and not monkey business. I'm aware of the FCOM setting of 1 o clock position for the loudspeaker. On the ACP, I usually keep the knob at 12 o clock position depending of the aircraft as in reality it varies from aircraft to aircraft. If you do have interference, set the loudspeaker to a lower setting. We personally put it to a minimum setting as we don't rely on loudspeakers when using headset. If you are lucky and don't experience any interference, then use them as your discretion. Simple as that. Communication should be as clear as possible to guaranty the best outcome.

maggot 18th Jun 2018 07:14


Originally Posted by Uplinker (Post 10175019)
It must be the other pilotís speaker that causes this effect. The difference in time delay between your headset earphones and your onside speaker is presumably too short to bother you, hence we often donít notice if we have left our own speaker on. But the time delay from the opposite speaker is perhaps long enough to cause noticeable audio effects to the other pilot, depending I guess, on a combination of headset type and relative volume levels.

Note, I am talking Airbus FBW here. Relatively wide cockpit with the speakers next to the sidewalls, so furthest away from the other pilot. Other types, such as 737, have different speaker locations.

(Delayed audio added to the original, produces all sorts of effects, ranging from increased ambience, to echoes, to frequency cancellation, (e.g. comb filtering), depending on the duration of the time delay. Indeed, this is the method by which some electric guitar and recording studio effects are produced).

This is precisely my experience of this issue over the last 20yrs in both bus and Boeing's of varying vintages.

Offside up is so distracting to me that I miss calls thus and get further distracted. You rarely notice if you've left your own up.

At my operation we keep headsets on for VHF so I'm not worried about missing calls as they're on a fair bit. And if you miss a call? So what, mostly. If you're crossing an FIR pay attention.

I've also never had an issue with a polite request to turn it down when forgotten.

YMMV

pineteam 18th Jun 2018 07:32

I found a reference from our Flight Operating Manual to confirm what I said ealier. It's actually written that you use Loudspeakers or headsets in pair but not both at the same time. :E:p:E


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...bc43a4de9e.jpg

maggot 18th Jun 2018 07:37

In stereo stereo

PENKO 18th Jun 2018 07:56

That’s not what it says pineteam. Really. I respect your opinion but the text you quote just tells you that pilots should be either on headsets or on speakers. I.e. one pilot cannot be on seakers whilst the other is on headsets.

pineteam 18th Jun 2018 08:04

My apology!You are correct Penko. :}
But it says use headsets OR loudspeakers. That's not very clear for me. Anyway. Who cares really. xD

Piltdown Man 18th Jun 2018 08:19

I think that the writer intended pairs to mean both pilots, but doesn’t explicitly say that. To add to the confusion, headsets typically have two speakers, it’s also interesting to see that 121.5 shall be continuously monitored without exception. That is a poorly written document. I hope the rest of your manuals are better written.

PM

liveandletlive 18th Jun 2018 08:37

In my opinion, I think it is fairly well written. I think in one sentence they state two things:

1-. Speakers or headsets
2-. Must be used in pairs

1-. Clearly states what pineteam has been defending here, the use of one of the systems, not both. Otherwise, they should've chosen AND instead of OR.
2-. Both pilots use the same system except for the condition given.

PENKO 18th Jun 2018 08:37

But now that you mention it pineteam, there is anecdotal evidence that some pilots in my company keep their ANR headset on during the cruise whilst their colleague is on speakers. This has become apparent during discussions regarding the use of personal ANR headsets on my company forum.

Now I don't like the idea of one pilot on headset whilst the other is on speaker but our company, unlike yours, doesn't prohibit it. What is more interesting though, in light of this discussion, is that none of these pilots mention interference. They are happy to fly for hours and hours with their ANR's on whilst their colleague is on the speaker with no hint of missed calls or other issues. Remember, this is in the cruise with the off side speaker wide open!

CRM-wise it must be a bit awkward, one on headset and one on speakers, hence the reference in your company manual. But again it goes to show that this interference is not universally felt/heard/noticed. Maybe it's a bit like the pressure waves some notice with ANR headsets. Most are not bothered, bot some are totally put off..


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