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Originally Posted by new_era
(Post 10140762)
Now please tell me, where is the cheating, where is the illegal thing on it.
What's illegal is to just say "we'll burn it off in the air" and take off at the higher weight without replanning. "Cheating," depending on the slang of where you're from, may refer to something that's legitimate but involves a clever work-around an initial obstacle; i.e., it could be either one of the above two actions. |
The point I have been making is that Regulatory Takeoff Weight has limitation that arise from approach and landing part. What you intend to do at landing is not enough the loads sheet before takeoff must reflect that it fulfills those (RTOW) requirements.
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Can you give an example using the same figures in what case the limitation you are talking about is violated?
zfw…61.4 < mzfw tow…76.8 < mtow ldw…66.3 < mlw |
Bergerie 1
So - all legal with problem solved and good diplomacy and publicity achieved at the same time! |
vilas,
They don't want to to know your story but want to see in tanks alternate fuel+30min holding fuel at alternate. If you didn't have that you would be hauled over coals. Have a read of the recognised procedures when you are "committed" to a single airfield. http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Leve...ncy%20fuel.pdf or https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...%202015082.pdf Company procedure is to file an ASR so any trend can be monitored. |
I agree with Goldenrivett on this one. We discussed about it recently in this thread: https://www.pprune.org/questions/607...imum-fuel.html
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Golden rivette and Pineteam
If you read carefully the reference you have given it only confirms what I am saying. You are supposed to keep track of fuel consumption all along in cruise and you are supposed to divert before minimum fuel situation arises. You cannot burn extra fuel to create a situation to commit to land and claim the privilege of minimum fuel. Incidently at Heathrow they have checked minimum fuel on board after landing. |
vilas,
you are supposed to divert before minimum fuel situation arises. |
Originally Posted by dastocks
(Post 10139634)
I was on a flight recently where the undercarriage was lowered for about 20 minutes in the cruise in order to burn off excess fuel that had been loaded by mistake before we had departed, so clearly it is possible.
Inflight - The expected landing weight must be at or below the landing perf limit weight. |
Originally Posted by Goldenrivett
(Post 10141914)
vilas,
If landing is assured at your destination (no weather problems etc) what is the advantage of diverting to an airfield with a single runway and arriving with only 30 mins of fuel remaining? |
Goldenrivett
Far too many variations have got in the original question and we are going around in circles. IFR flight/VFR flight, Alternate required/not required/not available, remote destination all these situations have different fuel requirements, we can't discuss all in one breath. I was referring to Bergerie1. His RTOW calculation at Nairobi was incorrect. Period! Refusing some payload or passengers is always a bad idea but you have to do it many times otherwise Regulated Takeoff Weight will become a joke. You have no option unless you manipulate the BO. I do not want to repeat what I have already stated. I don't know how any one can justify doing unplanned low flying with passengers and a VIP/Semi VIP on board and claim a pat on the back.You can check weather and traffic but ask Sully he will tell you cannot check for birds. Then you burn fuel and along with it your diversion and claim privileges of a committed landing. And despite my quoting Airbus manual page number B737900er states EASA doesn't have landing weight limit. May be AIRBUS doesn't form part of EASA. |
Originally Posted by carnival30
(Post 10137725)
Hello everyone, Please bear with me. In our company flight plan, the format goes like this, R/W limited t/o weight.........79.0 ( let’s say the max structural t/o is for today) Max Ldg weight.....66.4 B/o fuel..................10.0 Ldg limited t/o weight.....76.4 (adding above two) Max ZFW......62.7 Required fuel....13.5 (excluding taxi) ZFW limited t/o weight....76.2 (adding above two) planned zfw...61.0 planned t/o weight...74.5 landing weight....64.5 Now the problem I’m facing about how much extra fuel I can take for this flight. I know maximum time and easy calculation is just to subtract ldg weight from max ldg weight which gives us 66.4 minus 64.5= 1.9 tons. But in the above case we are limited by zfw limited t/o weight which is 76.2 (lowest of the three above) so should we minus this from planned t/o weight 76.2-74.5=1.7 tons. I am a bit confused here. If we take 1.9 tons then we are uplifting additional 0.2 tons here? So for the above what will be the correct answer? Thanks in advance. MZFW+TakeOff Fuel MLW + Trip (Takeoff Roll to Landing Roll or Burnoff - Taxi) MTOW Performance Limited Takeoff weight from RTOW Charts or Software Calculate the above four numbers --->> Choose the Smallest of Them all --->> Smallest number - ZFW + Taxi Fuel = The amount of fuel you can carry If the amount of fuel you can carry is fixed due to destination weather or enroute weather or any other reason in that case -->> Smallest Number - Fuel + Taxi Fuel = YOUR Max Zero Wt Period ... |
Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10142084)
Goldenrivett
Far too many variations have got in the original question and we are going around in circles. IFR flight/VFR flight, Alternate required/not required/not available, remote destination all these situations have different fuel requirements, we can't discuss all in one breath. I was referring to Bergerie1. His RTOW calculation at Nairobi was incorrect. Period! Refusing some payload or passengers is always a bad idea but you have to do it many times otherwise Regulated Takeoff Weight will become a joke. You have no option unless you manipulate the BO. I do not want to repeat what I have already stated. I don't know how any one can justify doing unplanned low flying with passengers and a VIP/Semi VIP on board and claim a pat on the back.You can check weather and traffic but ask Sully he will tell you cannot check for birds. Then you burn fuel and along with it your diversion and claim privileges of a committed landing. And despite my quoting Airbus manual page number B737900er states EASA doesn't have landing weight limit. May be AIRBUS doesn't form part of EASA. Thank you for answering. |
As long as the load sheet shows all weights below or equal to limit weights it's fine. As I have been pointing out some people relate RTOW only to takeoff. That's not so, even landing and GA performance at destination has influece on takeoff weight.
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Originally Posted by vilas
(Post 10138886)
No! You can't. Arithmetically possible but not legally. (...) You cannot legally exceed that and then burn extra to get within MLW.
As for RTOW, if it is the equivalent of limitation due to other than structural with Boeing, you do not have to calculate anything. It specified in the OM-C (sometimes lower with wet runway) and it is the MLW you have to consider for the flight instead of the structural mlw. |
Just to complicate things even further Tristars used to have a variable zero fuel weight.
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Every aircraft has a variable zero fuel weight |
Every aircraft has a variable zero fuel weight |
and it is the MLW you have to consider for the flight instead of the structural mlw. |
vilas,
What's the difference between MLW and structural mlw? e.g. B707 at old Heraklion airport in 70s was restricted to Structural MLW minus 2 Tons. |
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