I would assume that the SOP's lederhosen is referring to explicitly allow FO's to use the LH tiller if that could save some time for emergency services to attend to an incapacitated captain (switching seats after landing. No one suggested landing from an unfamiliar seat). Regardless of SOPs, if the captain is incapacitated, it's an emergency and the FO as PIC may do whatever it takes. If there's a fast turn off, fine, use the pedals, if you stop on the runway and there are airstairs nearby, fine, but if it's an airport where using the tiller would help, for gods sake let the PIC make that decision. I think the FO on United Flight 1637 switched seats to use the tiller to get help for an incapacitated captain and I wouldn't ever second-guess someone who does. It's a decision that needs to be taken depending on circumstances, you can't create general rules for every emergency.

Just for clarification I was talking about switching seats on the ground. If you only have one tiller the co-pilots need to be aware of this option. Stopping on the runway or on a taxiway may well be better. It depends on the circumstances. With American in Syracuse the co-pilot intended to stop on a taxiway. But the responders did not have steps so he carried on to a gate. Thanks to Deptrai who has meanwhile covered some things I would otherwise have mentioned.

Just to clarify from my previous post... I am perfectly happy for the FO to taxi, but I will not be distracted from watching proceedings, and not doing checklists or engine starts/shutdowns etc.

The argument about landing vs taxiing is irrelevant, as during landing the Captain is focused on the flying, and ready to take over, whereas during taxi, SOPs may have him doing other duties.

How many airlines have the same wind/xwind limits for Both crew?

The day the laws change to say an FO landing or taxiing is totally and solely responsible for any incident, (not the Captain) then life becomes much simpler!

it would be interesting to see some hard numbers. In airlines where FOs taxi, are there more taxiing incidents?

I'm making a bold assumption, if FOs are properly trained, that's not the case. I'd stipulate that taxiing an aircraft isn't more difficult to learn than driving a car/bus/truck/motorbike: after observing taxiing for a reasonable amount of time, you may need 40-60 hours of practice under competent supervision to become somewhat proficient (that's what it usually takes to pass a drivers licence test in some countries) and while that doesn't make you an expert, it will allow you to grow your skill set and experience.

The responsibility question is real though (CYA...), yet, would you rather be a passenger with a captain who was first introduced to taxiing on his command upgrade course (how many hours of taxiing?), or someone who has years of experience? In summary, I don't think RH tillers are such a bad idea.

If anyone was taking bets my money would be on less taxiing incidents in airlines that let the F/O taxi.

I find some ideas here quite ironic. So on 2-tiller aircraft you would not let a FO practice his taxiing skills in normal operations, yet he has the full capacity to do so in case of captain incapacitation, despite that the last time he tried to taxi was in the sim during his conversion course?

Have to agree with Flying Stone. The concept of a co-pilot landing the a/c single-handed from the RHS, stopping the a/c safely, applying the parking brake, and then adrenalin-hopping over to the LHS to taxi a large, long a/c for the first time ever at fairly high speed to the ramp area to save the pre-ordered steps-truck and ambulance a gallon of petrol strikes me as totally bonkers...

Far wiser to stay put, run the after-landing checklist carefully, and prepare the a/c for the arrival of the steps and paramedics. That would include starting the APU if available, shutting down the appropriate engine(s), and liaising with the emergency services by R/T and the senior cabin-crew member verbally.

Chris Scott, me and my company I work for, totally agree with you. It actually was an item in my last recurrent session!

I don't know where you fly, but on the western edge of the Atlantic, FO's and CA's have the same limits.

A new FO (less than 100hrs on type) is usually restricted in terms of takeoff and landing visibility, runway contamination, crosswind etc.

At the completion of 100hrs, both crewmembers have the same limits. I expect that you'll find a few oddball companies that restrict their FO's, but they're the exception.

I find the no taxi thing to be odd as well. The FO is competent to depart with 500RVR, land in a 30+kt crosswind after a CAT 1 approach to minimums, yet getting to the gate at 15kt is beyond his experience...:ugh:

There was no need for the FO to swap seats on that United flight.


The 787 comes with a tiller on both sides as standard, just like the 777.

Thanks lederhosen, that is what I was hoping, just a bit concerned about the concept of changing seats whilst still in the air!

My experience; 757,767,747 FO taxis for his/her sector, Capt does final bit on stand if equipment requires it. On the 747 some times necessary to drop a gentle hint when it was obvious the FO thought the nose wheel was a lot further back than it is and was a bit late turning in.

TILLER (s) ?
 

The Avro YORK had a tail wheel and was steered on the ground by the use of the brakes, with a bit of extra throttle from No 1 or No 4 as required.

The A/P, driven by No 1, tended to pump the elevator about 40 times per minute... when it worked. The A/P controls were by the Captain's left hand. So durng long flights the two pilots had to swap seats- at cruising level, remembering NOT to use the flying controls as a hand grip. The two pilots might be on duty for 20 + hours, each hand flying for an hour at a time , some 8 hours each, on two sectors. NO FTL.

ALL T/Os and Landings were done from the Left seat - the four throttles were easier to reach and control from the left seat. ( A bit of a stretch from the right seat for those with shorter left arm.)

I had done my " LEGAL SIX " T/O and landings with the Chief Pilot. and was the least experienced F/O in the Company. I asked the Training Captain with whom I was flying "why me." He said that it because I used a sextant and could serve as a back-up for our Straight Navigator on flights across the Atlantic. The rest of the crew (N/O, R/O & G/E) told me that "If the Captain became ill- they would have to rely on ME ! "

LT

My SEVENTH York T/O and landing LHS were seven months later, after 100+ sectors, having sat, patiently in the York's RHS. We were all glad that I had not forgotten what to do ! ( Training at Austers and then Hamble, had ALL been flying from the LHS ,and with a tailwheel ( except for Tiger Moths, of course. )

The York was not pressurised and had no radar. Flying in rain could mean wet knees, until a blanket was found. Cbs could not always be avoided. I learned to ease up on any precision of my hand flying.
" Stay reasonably straight and reasonably level.."
Someone had tried to do something else with a bad outcome.
( It might have been a Skyways Dove.)

LT

I must fly with different F/Os in different types of aircraft because I haven't yet met an F/O who couldn't taxi an aircraft. So please would somebody tell me the names of the airline's where the F/Os are incapable of taxing an aircraft (when fitted with a tiller). I'd also like a list of the companies where they employ captains who think F/Os aren't up to the job of taxiing. These below average average companies must be avoided at all costs.

PM

From a MX aspect, the first aircraft I taxied was a 742 from the RT seat. It was just as easy as towing the aircraft. I suppose watching the aircraft movement on the ground was an asset. I would suggest for a pilot to pay more attention to the position of the aircraft being operated under tow, during push back or other operations to gain a feel for where you are in respect to where the aircraft actually is on the ground. The seat is not a big deal (rt or lt). Break riding you can learn your nose gear position by simply watching taxi lines for your specific aircraft. Not really a big deal at all.

So I've been flying high performance large turbo props and jets for about 17 years now. About half that time was in the military and half with an airline. I'm an FO because most airlines operate a seniority system, it will probably be another 10 years before I get a command.

Are there really pilots on here that think that with my experience I'm not up to taxiing? Did I read right that someone was suggesting you need 40-60 hours of supervision before being competent to taxi?

I'm constantly amazed at the shear arrogance of some people in this industry. Who are these guys that think that because they are the captain only they can make a good decision and the FO shouldn't be trusted? How did I lose my ability to make decisions, and even taxi, when I moved from being a captain in the military to an FO in an airline? In my airline there are guys who have held widebody commands or been highly experienced military pilots, and because of our seniority system they are second officers who aren't allowed to sit in a window seat till they are above 20k.

Some people really need to get a grip.

Wonderful, LT - thanks!
 

LT - When my Dad was a kid in the lat 40's, he had a pair of Dinky Avro York planes; and when i was a kid, I used to hold them out of the window of our old Morris Oxford and marvel at how the wing provided lift right up to the stall - my first lessons in aerodynamics, in fact!

So there's something rather special to read your reminiscences about flying the real thing. Thanks for sharing.

R
Zimbabwe

RCSA,

Thank you for your comment.

I mentioned "Precision" in #54...

In smoother conditions the Captain might leave me hand-flying and walk to the toilet. Some of our toilets were near the tail of the York (others just aft of the F/D). We carried 40 passengers in "4 across rearward seating" ie. 10 rows. The York responded to this alteration of C of G by increasing the indicated airspeed speed by 1 or 2 kts, if I maintained my correct cruising level. When the Captain returned, the speed soon reverted to the 160 - 165 kts that it had been.

RVSM and wider cabins with 6 or more seats across and security makes this effect harder to observe. ( Captains weigh a smaller percentage of an aircraft's A.U.W. !)

LT

@juliet,

Well said.

Juliet
Seniority CAN be difficult.
When FTL came into force, two Captains and one F/O were required for our longer duties. Many Captains had joined from their previous employer at the same time and with similar backgrounds. They had all been S/F/Os who "had come with the aircraft" This was resolved so the Captain whose name was first in the alphabet would be IN COMMAND on the flight away from base, and the other was IN COMMAND for the return flight. (As the only F/O, I just had to remember whose word was LAW !)


As a 400 hour new CPL I had had to Check and Certify that my Employer and Chief Pilot was fit to fly IN COMMAND of the Rapide, which he owned, and for which I held the Type Rating. (Just how long the job would have lasted if I HAD FAILED him ... Is a matter for conjecture.)

LT

The problem juliet refers to, I think, is that of small men with big egos.

Frankly, I amazed they allow us to drive to work.......

Seniority is a whole other issue that will be argued till the end of time. Fact is its what most of us live with.

Seniority means that a captain is a captain not because of their superior ability, but because they joined a day before someone else. Most are excellent and acknowledge the abilities of their crew, using them to enhance their decision making. And of course we all understand that ultimately it's the captain that has the final say and takes ultimate responsibility. As an FO I'm more than happy with that. All I ever ask is don't treat me like a child, I'm a fellow professional who is more than capable of ALL the roles and responsibilities required in getting an airliner from A-B. Even taxiing.

Sorry for the thread drift!!

About 15 years ago, one of our Captains hit the boom of an ARFF firetruck with the right wingtip of a practically brand new 777 while taxiing to the gate on his fini flight.

The firetruck drivers had positioned their vehicles at specially pre-painted markings on both the sides of the taxiway leading into the ramp so that they could shoot a stream of water in a high arc over top the aircraft as a salute to the retiring Captain as he taxied to the gate.

The trouble was, the markings were painted to accommodate MD-11's, L-1011's and B-767's and no one had remembered to readjust them for the longer wingspans of our newly acquired 777's.

The poor Captain had flown his whole career and never so much had ever scratched an airplane and here he was now stopped short of the gate waiting to get the collision sorted out with his family and friends on board for his retirement flight.

Later, the company and FAA tried to blame the F/O for the mishap but ALPA rightly put up the defense that there was no possible way for the copilot to see the right wingtip's impending collision with the firetruck.

From that time on, I was more than happy with our company's policy that Captains did all the taxiing.

Going to be scary when you get a command then...

Yep. Pretty scary.

Juliet - Guess you want to do the RTO also ???

Capable maybe , responsible - NO .

This is surely a thread going nowhere , calling out Captains . It's the companys' train set . If they allow you to taxi , fly a sector or do paper work , apply Nike . Just do it !

If it's allowed , then I am sure most Captains comply , but it is their choice also . You are not entitled just because you think you may be competent or have been a 5* general in your previous life .

In your military life , did your superior rank indicate that you were the most suitable for the job ? Did your underlings comply with orders simply because that it how it works , even if they disagreed or were competent to command your platoon , division or aircraft ?

The military is completely different and quite irrelevant in that there is no seniority as such when it comes to flying. I've been in command with more senior officers in my crew, happens all the time.

Do I want to do the RTO? Interestingly in a previous life FOs were allowed to call abort, and shockingly it never caused a problem. In my airline I can't, and that's fine. Am I capable of it though? Yes I am, I haven't lost that decision making ability.

All I've been saying, in response to some comments on here, is that the attitudes of some in aviation are pretty crappy, and invariably based on a view that their ability is based on something other than their seniority number.

I appreciate that it's the captain's neck on the line so if he wants to do the taxiing (lvps or anything non standard) then I take no offence in that. I do however feel that I am fully capable of taxiing an aircraft and that is mostly for his own reassurance.

Shorties can be special, no doubt. I suppose, being shoved into a locker a few times too many would do that.

I worked for a lot of airlines(not by choice, lot's seem just to die over the last decade) and different a/c types.

Some had 1 tiller, others 2.

On this with steering both sides the FO could drive on his sector. But to be honest, this was one company and all the others sticked with "the captain drives".
I find this fair enough as the captain(and not the FO) is responsible for the safe operation of the flight and even more for safe taxi procedures. If something goes wrong, even initiated by the FO, they always go for the guy in the left seat.
Best example - in my current company we do as well lots of flights into Africa, had already a few "wing touches" on narrow parking areas while under control of a marshaller. He waived them right into the obstacle and of course they made the captain the black sheep - even changed procedures so captains would be even responsible for damage caused to the aircraft while under marshallers guidance. In this case I prefer to drive the thing into the wall by myself rather then let the FO do it :E.

The same goes for a Rejected TO. I see(like most companies) no problem why a FO could not call out a malfunction, but making a STOP or GO decision should be(and is nearly everywhere) the captains decision. To many "opinions" during such a critical phase can cause confusion and lead to errors where you do not want to have them.

The FO has a very important role on a flight deck by supporting the captain and giving ideas. Sometimes as well to bring the captain again on the right track if he took the wrong turn or missed something.

But Go/No Go decisions are very tricky and need a lot of experience.

The only eception from above said things and the copilot may actually rightfully reject are jammed flight controls on his sector. No way that the PNF would figure that out and here it is absolutely the FO's call to reject.

I agree that captain is overall responsible for safety, but I consider takeoff (including V1-cut scenario) and landing much more dangerous than taxiing an aircraft at 10-15 konts and making some turns. If FO lands so hard that the landing gear collapses, they will come after you as well - but I guess you still let them land?

Well, it is captain's decision when to delegate PF duties to FO. I can understand if you wouldn't let an FO taxi the aircraft on a narrow apron in Africa at night (just as you would probably take controls in case of any major flight controls problem for landing), but why not let them learn on a not-so-busy airport with large empty apron and wide taxiways at broad daylight?

One way of looking at this is - if they know how to do your job (e.g. taxi the aircraft, start the engines, etc.), they can be much better at noticing something is going wrong during this part.

In most companies where FO can taxi the aircraft, callout "STOP" during takeoff roll automatically transfers the control of the aircraft to the guy in the left seat anyway.

Do you mean immediately, or once the aircraft is stopped? Just curious!

@Flying Stone, I agree with all of that.

I am a little uncomfortable when (other) people imply that the F/O has little or no responsibility for the safe operation of a flight. Of course they have. Sure if it comes to court, the F/O might not be the one in the dock, (although they probably will be), but if through their negligence or actions, an accident occured, that F/O is going to feel extremely responsible, whether legally so or not.

The training for a F/O on Hermes in Britavia was done with the PF in LHS which had the only nose wheel steering control, electrically selected, but hydraulically powered. The Chief Pilot sat in the RHS. The F/E set up the power I requested.

As F/O LHS I was required to have my right hand just forward of the throttles so that if I needed to close the them before V1 the F/E would have a tactile confirmation of this, in case he had failed to hear my command.

My " Legal Six" T/Os and Landings took 1 hour and 5 minutes at Blackbushe, which was not busy.

A couple of days later, together with another equally well trained (and also new) F/O we three flew together to Singapore and return ( 71 .50 in 10 sectors.) I did some other flights with other crews to Nairobi etc. to do some 120 hours in that first November.

ALL T/O and landings were done by the pilot who was sitting in the LHS, who might be a Captain or F/O.

Years later later a similar system of seating was usual on Caledonian Airways DC7c and Britannia fleets, right from the start of that Company. Both aircraft types had a SINGLE nose wheel steering. The flying part of the T/R was much more comprehensive and took longer too!


( One perhaps unusual technique required on the Zambian Oil Lift, required the Britannia to be REVERSE TAXiED to an unloading bay.
THE PILOTS MUST HAVE BOTH FEET ON THE FLOOR ,,,,,
TO STOP GOING BACKWARDS ASK THE F/E TO CANCEL REVERSE AND GIVE ME FORWARD THRUST.!)

LT

I'm not a fan of watching the Captain stumble through the before takeoff checklist/line-up checks while I taxi from the right seat. And don't get me started on the after landing flow.

I'd rather just give him back control of the airplane and take care of all those things, thank you very much. Lest we get to the runway without TA/RA, or get to the stand with the weather radar still on.

Now there is pilot who gets it:)

While i'm not very passionate about the whole FO taxi thing, if the above is the case for more than the first two or three weeks it shows clearly incompetence on the captains in question. Give them a re-training session, if they dont get it and they still miss steps after that, show them the door, the lower seniority guys will enjoy that a lot :ok:

No excuse in my book. They are so clever, they should be capable of learning a few simple flows. And reading a checklist is child's play.

If they can't do that then are they really competent to fly as LHS?

Plus if they did these things on the ground every day (as we do in my company), they do just fine. I taxi to the stand (captain always parks), and the captain does everything else. Sure he might miss the weather radar... but I've done that too. That's why we have checklists. If we were perfect every time, then there would be no need for checklists.

In an airline flying a fleet of 320+ 737-800 aeroplanes into little and large airports across Europe, the average FO probably has <2000 hours flight time (turnover and command at 3000 hours being the norm).

I can perfectly understand why such an airline specified all its aeroplanes with only 1 tiller!

ps: the same airline limits 2 stripers to 15knots crosswind.